I'm a gay man and I don't particularly care at all about attractive women, and think men are much more appealing than women. Most of the gay men I know find vaginas kind of gross, actually.
It's simple: In Western culture (at least in the USA), all those who believe in this image:
Yeah. They're all idiots.
They obviously aren't "just boobs", are they? Hence the embarrassment a woman feels when one slips out, the self-consciousness they feel about their size (individual and as a pair), the push-up bras, breast implants, the controversy around breast feeding in public, etc.
Point is, Western culture views breasts as something much more sacred/sexual than a man's pecs. Believe me, I can see the sexism here when it comes to the public portrayal of a topless man and a topless woman. However, I can understand the reasons for keeping them under cover and why they should be allowed to breathe fresh air.
In the end it's a cultural thing. Like how in the Middle East women cover up everything but their eyes and Western society thinks that's sexist.
EDIT: Image was to further a point by easily depicting a side of the argument that is valid but poorly explained. It's understandable that there is sexism in a shirtless man being on a giant billboard but mere image of a woman in a bra is considered far more sexual. They are not "just boobs", however, in a culture that views them as otherwise, hence the clarification "in Western culture (at least in the USA)". It's, as I said, a cultural thing.
Whats so "awful and needs to be covered up" about a penis or vagina, etc? Nothing, the laws or social norms involving nudity aren't based on any real logic or intrinsic need for things to be covered up.
Where I live women are allowed to go topless anyway, so the laws are equal. If women want the right to go out topless they should fight for it in their area, and then its up to them. As for the general populations attitude towards it, I don't think its very harmful and you can't really directly change that sort of thing anyway.
what i want to know is, if a fat guy like me goes topless will he fall under the same censorship as a woman for having 'manboobs' ? - or what if someone has a hairy ugly chest?
just a thought, cos i never see it happen where i live.
That could easily be explained by homophobic attitudes against men admitting finding other men attractive. And the threads on these forums of "who would you go gay for" are chocked full of men admiring other men.
Bara_no_Hime said:
Really? I've sucked on guys' nipples before during sex. Seems to be quite pleasant for them.
This is probably a stupid suggestion, but suppose we look to the recent "Is provocative clothing an excuse for rape?" discussion? If women wearing provocative clothing do indeed make themselves more vulnerable to rape, then wouldn't walking around topless be even worse? On the other hand, men walking around topless would not. I know it is possible for women to rape men, but its much harder, would require some preparation, and really would be a crime of opportunity. Its doubtful that this is the reason for public indecency laws taking their current form, but it may be a part of it, and could explain the double standard. I'm just musing idly though, its only a theory, I can't back it up.
Excellent points, Bara_no_Hime! We can all understand why it's sexist and why it isn't deemed sexist on a societal level when we look through the eyes of that culture, but to explain either point (why it is or isn't sexist) in any other fashion would just be...well...sexist.
Women like sex too, people. You see, women love sex and get turned on/off as much as men because they are human beings and equivalent to them. If you can't understand that, well...
Well sure, some guys can enjoy that, but people don't think of male nipples as sexual though. Some people like feet in a sexual manner, but going bare-foot isn't seen as scandalous.
'Course I have no problem with women going topless. I'll admit I'd enjoy it a bit, but after a while it'd just be a normal thing to see. Or at least people would (hopefully) calm down about it.
This is probably a stupid suggestion, but suppose we look to the recent "Is provocative clothing an excuse for rape?" discussion? If women wearing provocative clothing do indeed make themselves more vulnerable to rape, then wouldn't walking around topless be even worse?
Shouldn't that be a decision left up to the individual? I mean, it seems counter to the "OMG PROTECTING EVERYONE FROM THEMSELVES" sentiment any sort of safety regulation brings up.
Here's the Utah State University from the Federal Commission on Sexual Assault and Anti Violence Information.
- A Federal Commission on Crime of Violence Study found that only
4.4% of all reported rapes involved provocative behavior on the part
of the victim. In murder cases 22% involved such behavior (as simple
as a glance).
- Most convicted rapists do not remember what their victims were wearing.
Well breasts (on females XD) are a sexually attractive body part on women and can be very distracting if they are just thrown around where ever they please.
Also, if you are a woman, you'll know how bad it can be if you don't have something supporting your tah tahs.
I mean on a beach, if you want to run and be crazy, then by all means go topless. I for one will always wear one because I need the support. XD
If you want women to talk around topless all the time, then forget it, it won't happen. I wouldn't want to see men walk around topless everywhere. Imagine being in your local supermarket and everyone's just walking around without tops on... it sounds cool but the public health issues would become quickly apparent.
This is probably a stupid suggestion, but suppose we look to the recent "Is provocative clothing an excuse for rape?" discussion? If women wearing provocative clothing do indeed make themselves more vulnerable to rape, then wouldn't walking around topless be even worse? On the other hand, men walking around topless would not. I know it is possible for women to rape men, but its much harder, would require some preparation, and really would be a crime of opportunity. Its doubtful that this is the reason for public indecency laws taking their current form, but it may be a part of it, and could explain the double standard. I'm just musing idly though, its only a theory, I can't back it up.
Not to demean your point, but that discussion is over in half a second. Before the question is even asked the answer is NO.
However, you are right that that issue is part of the reason those laws exist. Just like the laws that prohibit a young teen from seeing an R rated flick in theaters or buying an M rated game (without an "adult" to vouch for them).
"Violent games and movies made my son kill a man!"
"That woman's Nudist ideals made that man...."
...Well, you get the (sad) picture. :/
Good musing, though.
'Course I have no problem with women going topless. I'll admit I'd enjoy it a bit, but after a while it'd just be a normal thing to see. Or at least people would (hopefully) calm down about it.
Just because I think it should be legal doesn't mean I'd actually do it.
Well, maybe when it was 90+ degrees out. Bras suck in the summer.
And anyway, sure breasts are nice to look at, but the fun doesn't really start until you can touch them. That aspect wouldn't change. Just cause you can see 'em doesn't mean you get to play with 'em, sugah.
....
... not sure why I slipped into Applejack talk there. Weird.
As a female can't say I'd go for it if it was allowed, boobs fun as they are are not practical not in a bra most of the time
plus if you have all the goods on show where is the fun of the big reveal and the tease of being covered up,it's not about what's on show but what's not that can be far more exciting
fair play if they want to make it totally equal but couldn't see it being massively popular
'Course I have no problem with women going topless. I'll admit I'd enjoy it a bit, but after a while it'd just be a normal thing to see. Or at least people would (hopefully) calm down about it.
Just because I think it should be legal doesn't mean I'd actually do it.
Well, maybe when it was 90+ degrees out. Bras suck in the summer.
And anyway, sure breasts are nice to look at, but the fun doesn't really start until you can touch them. That aspect wouldn't change. Just cause you can see 'em doesn't mean you get to play with 'em, sugah.
....
... not sure why I slipped into Applejack talk there. Weird.
Anyway, I'll agree that all just because it would be legal doesn't mean that everyone would do it. Wearing clothes isn't just for modesty's sake, often times the weather requires some nice clothes to keep you comfortable.
And yeah, boobs will still be more fun to play with than to look at. Course that's always been the case seeing as it can still be obvious when a woman has an ample bosom. You know they're there and you can guess what they look like, but they still aren't able to be played with.
Gods, I hope I'm not coming off as too creepy. Damn social conditioning...
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