Poll: Should feminists be involved with anime mediums?

[Bat Vader]

If someone savagely insults someone over a difference of opinion they should have their opinion thrown out and automatically lose any argument or debate they are having. If someone can't argue in a civil manner they don't deserve to argue at all. I get that tensions get heated in arguments but that is no excuse at all for savagely insulting someone.

 

[Armadox]

The topic of the thread is "should feminists get involved with anime mediums" Excuse me for working under the assumption that they'd be involved in anime mediums, as, you know, it is the topic of the thread. Remember the whole "if you don't like it you don't have to be involved" thing. That applies to topics you don't like too. If you don't like the stated topic of the thread, you don't have to post in it.

You'll note that the topic of the thread is not "should those obscure, extremist, feminist boogeymen get involved with anime mediums" so, unless you're conflating the extremists who only get involved with a medium to use it as part of their ideology with "feminists," they're irrelevant.

But then their being feminists wouldn't matter, and thus the answer is clearly yes.

Since it is mentioned that they are feminist, i assume that they will bring their ideology to work, otherwise their being feminists is completely irrelevant, yes? If it is irrelevant, than the clarification that they are feminists is meaningless, and since i'm under the assumption that the OP said "feminists" because of the ideology, otherwise, again, clarification is pointless, and doesn't really even make sense in this context, i'm assuming we're talking about those whom it would matter if they were feminists involved in the medium. If it matters that they are feminists involved in the medium, as opposed to people, i'm assuming they're bringing their ideology to work. If they are bringing their ideology to work, they are undermining something else to do so. Again, if it's their concept, their show, they have every right to do with it what they will, but the same goes for other people's concepts that might not do well to have feminist ideology forcibly superimposed over it.

Since as of this moment, I do not think feminists can go back in time to unmake something. Even if they superimpose their ideology on something. The original still exists. If they choose to do this, you now have the same piece of art seen from two different ideologies, which save some copyright issues there is nothing wrong with this. If they chose to critique on an art, that is because it struck an emotion and thus the art is validated. Discussion then has nothing to do with the art, but the ideology and emotional differences of those that view it.

So, should feminists be involved with anime? Yes, I'd be absolutely fine with them producing their own show and would be interested in seeing what kind of stories they would create. Should feminists critique on anime? Yes, everyone should be able to express how art effects them. Should the OP object their opinion on the anime? Yes, everyone should be able to express how art effects them, and that means explaining your views. Should the OP call people names, use bully tactics, ignore views that work against the singular point he wishes to make, and paint an entire movement with the same brush in a way to generalize an "us versus them" method of debate? No, that should not have happened.

 

[IceForce]

Wow, you're a total fool if you think men and women being treated equally is STILL what feminism is about. That's called egalitarianism, that's the flag i sail, so don't stain it by conflating it with feminism.

Egalitarians aren't banning GTA,

But neither are feminists. Unless you have a source that proves otherwise? Link it, please.

 

[NemotheElvenPanda]

Yes, to an extent. Japan's issues of gender and sex are bit different from that of the west having different origins and pervasiveness which could give a different perspective on how sexism works here, but it is different, so it would require some knowledge on Japanese culture. Basically, I think there should if it's from a contextual basis and not the more contemporary one in universities and the internet. Like all social issues, it's good to see them from different culture's other than your own, as is with all ideologies.

 

[Armadox]

Since as of this moment, I do not think feminists can go back in time to unmake something. Even if they superimpose their ideology on something. The original still exists. If they choose to do this, you now have the same piece of art seen from two different ideologies, which save some copyright issues there is nothing wrong with this. If they chose to critique on an art, that is because it struck an emotion and thus the art is validated. Discussion then has nothing to do with the art, but the ideology and emotional differences of those that view it.

So, should feminists be involved with anime? Yes, I'd be absolutely fine with them producing their own show and would be interested in seeing what kind of stories they would create. Should feminists critique on anime? Yes, everyone should be able to express how art effects them. Should the OP object their opinion on the anime? Yes, everyone should be able to express how art effects them, and that means explaining your views. Should the OP call people names, use bully tactics, ignore views that work against the singular point he wishes to make, and paint an entire movement with the same brush in a way to generalize an "us versus them" method of debate? No, that should not have happened.

You do realize anime is still being made, right? Meaning that there could potentially be anime being made, or having already been made, that was once about something, but is not not about that, because at some point, someone decided that someone was too sexualized or someone was too objectified or that having the main character as male was misogynist, or that fighting with swords was a phallic symbol and that fighting with phallic symbols was sexist, so now nobody can fight with swords or spears, or that even if the ratio of men to women hurt is 100:1, that 1 women is an unacceptable amount of women to be hurt ala the reasoning behind the GTA target shit. Meaning that no, the original does not exist. It never got animated, because someone shut it down in the development process. I do not want these people involved in the making of anime.

I... I find your response odd, and had to reread it a few times to make sure I was getting it correct. For what you are using as an example would be a thing of the absurd, for a few reasons, but mostly because of this. For every movement of art there is always a counter movement. Anyways, and if, in some parallel future that a situation such as this would be capable of happening, for it to have preeminence or purpose you would need them to have that reaction against something, meaning that anime that used a male that swung a sword would had to still have happened. Taboos do not form out of the aether, but need something to spark them, and once they have formed there will always be groups that find pleasure in expressing said taboo. In a world where you would be completely unable to have a misogynistic view in public you would have created a counter-culture where males and females fantasize those ideals.

Any anime you have seen that has had sexualized characters means that that has happened, and is there already in some form as to be found and viewed again. Any anime that was never made has no meaning, art that can't be seen can't be mourned. I can, with money and time find a copy of Violence Jack. If they make no more Violence Jack, it still is there.

You can ban anything, force anything, but the harder you push on art to define it you only create pockets that will work against you to do the exact opposite, just to spite you. This is why I do not worry about ideology hurting art, it only strengthens it by creating art meant to offend. *spreads arms wide* Furries, Guro, Harem Anime, Loli.. Show me a taboo and I shall show you an entire fandom dedicated to it[footnote]This again has to harken back to the fact that it has to be legal in the first place. Banksy is a good artist, but his art is still when you get down to it vandalism.I appreciate and applaud his work when done legally, but when not, I will not be ignorant for when he gets caught and fined.[footnote] Art will be made regardless of the legality, and although I try hard to keep my opinions to that which is redeemed by law, that which is not will still be made regardless. If you look hard enough, every thought, depravity or need will have it's composer.[/footnote][/footnote].

What I do worry about is people being to afraid to express their views on said art, or be unable to form proper discussions do to dissidence turning sour. The OP hating feminism in anime will only create anime in which feminism becomes the main point. For counter-culture has been born from less.

 

[Phrozenflame500]

Feminist critique applies to all mediums, and it's not really a bad thing. I imagine there are many anime fans who are also feminists and have their own viewpoint, either positive or negative, of the treatment of women in the medium.

Obviously it would be a bit hard for western critics to understand the wider cultural context of Japan, but that doesn't mean Japanese feminists couldn't go ahead or that even westerners could critique it keeping in mind the difference in perspective.

 

[Armadox]

Since as of this moment, I do not think feminists can go back in time to unmake something. Even if they superimpose their ideology on something. The original still exists. If they choose to do this, you now have the same piece of art seen from two different ideologies, which save some copyright issues there is nothing wrong with this. If they chose to critique on an art, that is because it struck an emotion and thus the art is validated. Discussion then has nothing to do with the art, but the ideology and emotional differences of those that view it.

So, should feminists be involved with anime? Yes, I'd be absolutely fine with them producing their own show and would be interested in seeing what kind of stories they would create. Should feminists critique on anime? Yes, everyone should be able to express how art effects them. Should the OP object their opinion on the anime? Yes, everyone should be able to express how art effects them, and that means explaining your views. Should the OP call people names, use bully tactics, ignore views that work against the singular point he wishes to make, and paint an entire movement with the same brush in a way to generalize an "us versus them" method of debate? No, that should not have happened.

You do realize anime is still being made, right? Meaning that there could potentially be anime being made, or having already been made, that was once about something, but is not not about that, because at some point, someone decided that someone was too sexualized or someone was too objectified or that having the main character as male was misogynist, or that fighting with swords was a phallic symbol and that fighting with phallic symbols was sexist, so now nobody can fight with swords or spears, or that even if the ratio of men to women hurt is 100:1, that 1 women is an unacceptable amount of women to be hurt ala the reasoning behind the GTA target shit. Meaning that no, the original does not exist. It never got animated, because someone shut it down in the development process. I do not want these people involved in the making of anime.

I... I find your response odd, and had to reread it a few times to make sure I was getting it correct. For what you are using as an example would be a thing of the absurd, for a few reasons, but mostly because of this. For every movement of art there is always a counter movement. Anyways, and if, in some parallel future that a situation such as this would be capable of happening, for it to have preeminence or purpose you would need them to have that reaction against something, meaning that anime that used a male that swung a sword would had to still have happened. Taboos do not form out of the aether, but need something to spark them, and once they have formed there will always be groups that find pleasure in expressing said taboo. In a world where you would be completely unable to have a misogynistic view in public you would have created a counter-culture where males and females fantasize those ideals.

Any anime you have seen that has had sexualized characters means that that has happened, and is there already in some form as to be found and viewed again. Any anime that was never made has no meaning, art that can't be seen can't be mourned. I can, with money and time find a copy of Violence Jack. If they make no more Violence Jack, it still is there.

You can ban anything, force anything, but the harder you push on art to define it you only create pockets that will work against you to do the exact opposite, just to spite you. This is why I do not worry about ideology hurting art, it only strengthens it by creating art meant to offend. *spreads arms wide* Furries, Guro, Harem Anime, Loli.. Show me a taboo and I shall show you an entire fandom dedicated to it[footnote]This again has to harken back to the fact that it has to be legal in the first place. Banksy is a good artist, but his art is still when you get down to it vandalism.I appreciate and applaud his work when done legally, but when not, I will not be ignorant for when he gets caught and fined.[footnote] Art will be made regardless of the legality, and although I try hard to keep my opinions to that which is redeemed by law, that which is not will still be made regardless. If you look hard enough, every thought, depravity or need will have it's composer.[/footnote][/footnote].

What I do worry about is people being to afraid to express their views on said art, or be unable to form proper discussions do to dissidence turning sour. The OP hating feminism in anime will only create anime in which feminism becomes the main point. For counter-culture has been born from less.

A counter-culture where feminists actually create games that appeal to them instead of superimposing feminism over other games, allowing everyone to enjoy the games they want, would be a fucking godsend. I'd love to see this borg assimilation model give way to something more constructive.

But, would not the super imposing of feminism over something, still be creating something new? You'd still need the original to be there for them to do so (and once it is there, you can not unmake it. Genies rarely go back into their bottles like that), and if they make Mario into Maria then both parties are happy. The problem comes from when those who like Mario (or Maria) spit in the eye of those that enjoy the other. Satire and Parody are both still valid forms of art. Allowing everyone to enjoy the games they want seems to be exactly what that is doing, so now we come to the question. What exactly is the problem?

edit: Gaming and anime are systematically different in how they are engaged. Gaming can be easily modified to perform how the viewer desires and a Skyrim feminism mod doesn't hurt or invalidate Skyrim regular flavor.

Anime (or animation in general) requires a much deeper skill and dedication to tamper with. Anime that was changed before you could view it can not be missed (you didn't know it existed), anime that is tampered with after the fact doesn't instantly change the data on your dvd (fan dubbing a pro message only effects those that are interested in hearing that and move to seek it out), and the delusion that they'd abandon any trope, mindset or ideology because of pressure would require us to be so different in how we react and handle that again it'd be moot. You'll always be able to get your swords, no one is taking your swords away, some people just simply want whips instead and are a little up-set there aren't enough whip entertainment to fill their needs. Until whips to swords are 50/50 there will always be someone grumpy.

 

[Zakarath]

Yes, people should be free to voice concerns and criticisms. In an ideal world, they would get to do this without being told to kill themselves, but I see we aren't quite there yet.

I recently decided to introduce my mom to anime; I started with Knights of Sidonia, because it's on netflix and I remembered it being a pretty good sci-fi/mecha when I watched it a few months back. But now that I'm watching it again, under different circumstances, I can't help but notice that practically every episode manages to come up with a reason to have some of it female cast appear rather less than clothed. It doesn't even do anything for the show. It certainly doesn't make it better.

And shit like this is just so damn common I normally don't even notice it anymore. And If I could change one thing about anime, it would be that. I've liked a few ecchi anime. But I don't need this constant, pointless fanservice everywhere. Guess I'm a dirty feminist, eh, OP?

(on UBW: yeah, Shirou does manage to land a small band of girls vying for his attention without even doing much of anything to encourage it, and I could see how you could make a case that that's sexist. At least Shirou's not trying to keep Saber from fighting because 'she's a girl!' so much this route.)

 

[Smiley Face]

A good thing can be criticized without being called bad. Take the early James Bond films, for instance. Sean Connery-era ones could easily be called sexist. An argument could be made that the sexism and behaviour there was common and accepted at the time, but that doesn't make the argument that it was sexist any less valid, and to some people, that's enough for them to not like it. I've made the argument several times that Live and Let Die was racist. Those criticisms point out flaws in these works, but nothing's perfect, and I still really enjoy those films for what they do well. The fact that I can see problems with them doesn't change what they are.

But that's because I can look past those things to the degree they appear there. Other people have different ways of looking at things, and they will view a work of art as worse for having something they find actively repugnant. They're not wrong for disliking a thing for having a particular quality, and if they want to write about why they have a problem with it, then that's a good thing, others can read it and decide whether they would, or wouldn't have the same problem. Every now and again I read a negative review and decide to get a thing (say, Alpha Protocol), because I don't have a problem with its negatives, and find its positives very appealing. And it's also not to say that I wouldn't think all of those things were better without the particular problems that they have (except perhaps Live and Let Die, because its problems get so out of proportion that they're actually funny to watch).

Is the Fate/UBW anime good? Many would say yes, myself included. Is it perhaps sexist? I'm not sure, worth talking about. Would it be better without those sexist elements? I'm not sure, worth talking about. The point I'm making is that criticism is good for art and those who enjoy it. Having debates on issues is good. I don't see any reason why feminists shouldn't be free to enjoy, or not enjoy, what everyone else can. In fact, I don't see what grounds there could be against anyone having the freedom to watch and criticize what they like.

Now, what I don't understand are personal insults, threats, deciding to hate someone because they see the world differently than you. Is this person's dislike of your anime threatening its continued existence somehow? Is it so bad that it can't survive its flaws being pointed out? If, as you say, you're "not childish enough to let such shallow things prevent [you] from enjoying something", then you're already making the distinction that the objectionable content, while objectionable, doesn't negate the rest of what makes the show good.

And that's not even getting past the fact that you're taking a specific subset of feminists that you don't like, and either assuming that all feminists are like them, or using the word feminist incorrectly to refer to this specific group. I mean seriously, feminism, in term of what the word actually means, the belief in and advocacy for equal rights for women, is not uncommon, or exclusive to women, and if you were to take all the feminists who consume or create anime and somehow ban them from doing those things, that would be an affront to personal liberties, and it would cripple the industry immensely.

So yeah, don't really get what you're going on about.

 

[Vault101]

Over-sensitivity has been a popular political move lately, and this is all it is.

ohhhh

OHHHHHH

I seee

no really

[snipy.

did ya get that?

snip.

can you see clearly now that the rain is gone?

[snipn.

did you see the light?

>snip. XD

did jesus descend from heaven?

cause he just did...for me, jesus just came into my house in a flash of brilliant white...not "historically" accurate jesus but white brown haired jesus...

and Jesus said to me "Vault? why are you mad?"

and I said "Jesus, sometimes I get really mad about the sexism I see on the internet, it makes me heart sink , it makes me sad, I know its just the internet but there is just so much hate and willful ignorance I can't believe its not IRL either"

and Jesus came and sat down next to me on the bed, placed his hand on my shoulder and said "its ok Vault, you don't have to be sad anymore" and I said "why jesus?" he just smiled and said

"Vault...you're just being overly sensitive"

"I...I am?" he nodded

"you are, and not just you vault, but ALL those feminists. Just after they got sufferage thats when they all went mad"

"but...but sometimes I feel things, I feel sad or irritated or disappointed when I see the same old things pop up both in fiction and real life," Jesus wiped a tear from my face

"but your feelings...[i/]aren't real[/i]"

"theyre not?"

"no Vault! theyre not! youre just doing this to yourself" I was confused...yet I felt all the sadness start to dissipate

"so that Video I saw on facebook of a man tricking a female security gaurd into touching his erect dick with a trick fanny pack-"

"it was just a joke"

and then it hit me IT WAS JUST A JOKE..all this time I thourght it was sexual assult BUT IT WAS JUST A JOKE, I had no idea

"and the sexism in GTA?"

"satire"

"the lack of female protagonists?"

"not important"

"objectification?"

"not real!"

"and thats the thing Vault, we are truly equal if ONLY you will allow yourself to see!"

and then this time I cried but they were tears of joy, Jesus had told me things I didn't understand before, things that my unreliable female feelings that ruined for me

"OH JESUS PRAISE YOU!" I cried "praise you for freeing me of sexism! I thourght I couldn't enjoy something like Shadow of Mordor because of how generic it was and its stupid cliches but I CAN I can now because you showed me the light and I don't feel sad anymore about anything!!!

and then I rushed outside to buy a copy of shadow of mordor, some construction workers cat called me but I smiled and I thanked them because they were really just paying me a compliment something I hadn't understood before and when I got home I played it

and then I played Starcraft and when somone said they would rape my I didn't mind because it didn't have anything to do with the historical meaning of "rape" to violate and damage someone and often used as an act of war, it was just a word devoid of all meaning and really they could have just said "dippity-doo" and it would have had the same effects

because you should NEVER EVER have to think about the things you say or like or do because THAT would be a very violation of our rights

Vaults crazy rant part 2

[snip.

claiming "egalitarianism" while condemning femenism is the oldest disingenuous trick in the book

cause now you can be progressive while not having to think about the games or you play or watching porn or what might constitute objectification

its a brand of "progressiveness" that validates the base assumption that "no inequality actually exists"

cause I can guarantee if you think feminism "isn't needed" we are not living on the same plane of existance