Poll: Skyrim: The Armour complaint.

[LarenzoAOG]

A game can look perfect, have amazing action, writing, voiceacting, pacing, music, have the greatest story ever written, bring you to tears during the end cutscene whilst you give it standing applause, it could come with a copy of God's autograph, and be hand-delivered in a perfect replica of the Ark of the Covenant by 6 of the most gorgeous people to ever walk on this Earth.... and some mother fucker will complain about the textures or how it didn't live up to the hype.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

it's frustrating to be challenged when you know that at any point you could be bypassing the challenge completely.

This is exactly why I would rather have the, in my opinion, broken enchantment and spell creation system removed. A game is boring if you know that you can just 'cheese' past everything if you want. Just look at some of the replies on some oblivion threads 'lol why would you do that when you can just make yourself invisible and walk past everyone' :|

I think it's pretty funny people argue against streamlining then they want the game to be as simple as possible (chameleon 100% etc) for the 'sake of fun'.

Isn't that streamlining?!?

Why even bother playing the game at all if not to take part in the challenge of the gameplay?

 

[Frotality]

its less customization, simple as that. they site performance issues, which is asinine; large scale battles have always been shit in elder scrolls due to the way combat works (friendly fire WILL HAPPEN ALOT).

however, they have said it allows them to make more kinds of armor, and there is evidence of being able to customize those joined pieces; so hopefully we turn out with better customization overall.

still, its a confirmed loss of customization against rumors, so the anger is understandable.

 

[k7avenger]

In Morrowind, if I wanted to wear glass pauldrons with an ebony chestpiece, I could. If I wanted to wear a daedric right gauntlet with an iron left, I could. I couldn't in Oblivion. Taking away stats, fine. I can see where they are coming from with that. The stats pretty much boiled down to damage you do, damage you take, hp, magicka, and fatigue. As long as those bases are covered its all good. But this, really? I just don't understand it.

Yea, you might say its pointless mixing armor pieces, but I really liked just how far you could customize your character. Why would you want to take that away? What is to be gained? I mean it was okay back then, what's changed that now we can't do it? We're taking away as much as we add so are we really gaining anything?

 

[bushwhacker2k]

Well, I kind of understand making things less complex, but there's a fine line between removing complexity and simplifying it.

I'm not attempting to nitpick, but I did like the large selection of armor pieces in Morrowind, I wasn't too bothered by the slight changes for armor pieces in Oblivion, but now it seems like they may actually be reaching the level of 'dumbing it down'.

Hopefully stats have enough variety to keep things interesting.

 

[6_Qubed]

Spoiler: hidden for brevity

Also, I heard from a Gamestop minion that Skyrim will have dual-wielding, so you can theoretically have two spells ready at the same time (or two weapons, or a weapon and a spell, whatever). This strongly suggests that in order to maintain "balance", they will make the spells even less effective than they were in Oblivion.

Spells were ridiculously effective in Oblivion, I don't see how this is a problem.

A short-duration 100% weakness to magicka spell followed by a drain 100 health spell is a ridiculous one shot kill combo. The latter spell requires destruction 25, so can be thrown together by a starting mage, and will instant kill anything on its own for about 75% of the game.

And don't get me started on illusion.

Yup, I remember all that, and after what Oblivion gave me as a "fix" for those issues I certainly learned to appreciate it all, both good and bad.

While I won't say Oblivion was better, I don't think you can really accuse it of even trying to fix most of the problems in Morrowind. Sure, they made the pace of game faster, made Mages who actually cast spells viable (if not overpowered) and got rid of stamina depletion by running in favour of a reduced rate of stamina regeneration.

I'm not sure how you could see any of those as bad moves, especially when there are so many others things to round on. The lack of faction diversity, the linearity of experience, the lack of any kind of lasting consequence to any action you take in the game (a criticism I would also level to a lesser extent at Morrowind), the really boring visual setting and the ease of fast travel. With the possible exception of the last one, these aren't 'fixes' which went bad, they're just mistakes.

Go ahead and keep hating the game. There is nothing wrong with that, because there is a lot of hurdles to overcome.

No there aren't. That's part of the problem.

* Learn alchemy.
* Learn enchanting.
* Win

The reason that most RPGs are more 'simple' than Morrowind is not just 'accessability'. Actually, it's much more about preserving the balance needed to keep the experience immersive and enjoyable. I'm pretty sure I spent over a hundred hours in Morrowind. I'm not some moron whose ickle brain got confused by the crappy interface and who gave up. Heck, if you think Morrowind is inaccessible I challenge you to go and play Dwarf Fortress or ADOM, games which have taken years to develop their current state undergoing successive revisions to overcome exploits and bugs and which in both cases are still very much works in progress. Both are more balanced than Morrowind.

My problem is that while the looseness of the gameplay has an appeal, it inevitably means balance is fucked. With some polish (which various members of the modding community have actually given it over the years) this could have been mitigated, but Bethesda themselves don't even seem to have tried. A supposedly epic game which you can complete in 8 minutes (including intro and character generation) is not balanced. A game where you can achieve multi-thousands in any stat through chugging potions is not balanced. In any other game, these would be considered exploits to be patched, yet some people honestly seem to consider the fact that the game pretty much spreads its legs and invites you to break it a quality rather than a fatal balance issue. For me it breaks immersion to know that I could be solving any challenge in the game just by stacking potions or making some kind of broken enchanted ring, and that the game would only reward me for it.

Giving the player a choice is important, but giving the player three distinct choices which have depth and meaning will always come out better than giving a hundred meaningless choices which are not in any way thought our or balanced and which will ultimately have no effect on anything. Limiting choice allows balance to me more effectively monitored and consequences to be written in without turning the design document into a fractal nightmare.

Meaning no disrespect, but to Hell with balance. Just because a game gives me the potential to break it in half with a well-placed infinite loop of effects doesn't mean I will, but I still want the option all the same. I may not use an item duplication bug to drown a city in watermelons, but I want the option. I may not "beat the game in 8 minutes" with a speed-run, but I want the option. I may never again use an alchemy exploit to put as many attributes as I can up in the billions, but I want the option. And on-topic, I may never commit the grave sin of wearing nothing but pants, but I want the option.

That's the intended beauty of a game series such as The Elder Scrolls. Do you have to play it any way other than your own? No, of course not. But you have the option, and that option is the only reason why people bought the games in the first place.

 

[6_Qubed]

Personally, I'm more worried about what changes (read: nerfs) they're going to make to the magic system.

You know what I missed in Oblivion that I really liked in Morrowind? Jumping. Jumping crazy ridiculous heights and distances. And alchemy. Mind, I still used Alchemy in Oblivion to fill a variety of roles, from offense, defense, disruption, healing, and turning middling food items into CASH. (SUCK IT KING MIDAS I RUN THIS TOWN) But I missed how that one time, I turned my Morrowind-ian Breton into a physical god by using/abusing an infinite Fortify Intelligence Potion trick I found. Even though it officially ended the game as I had known it, it completely changed how I played the game, which in turn made a game that was slowly becoming boring fun again. Another thing I missed was putting activated abilities onto wearable items. I had Jump Pants. They made me really good at jumping, and they were blue. A moment of silence for the Jump Pants.

in oblivion your jumping ability was was just controlled by your acrobatics skill. so if you wanted to a jump spell you just boosted your acrobatics by a few hundred and you could jump over town walls.

I agree about alchemy. Hope you can still use it to mess with your ability to do stuff in skyrim, although with the removal of attributes I'm not hopeful. I guess it depends whether they replace effects like "+20 speed/strength" with "makes you run faster/carry more stuff/do more damage"

Let me ask you, sir or madam: Did you play the third game in the Elder Scrolls series, Morrowind? In that game, there was actually a spell effect called "Jump" that magnified your ability to do exactly that by several magnitudes greater than any Fortify Acrobatics effect. On the one hand, I understand why they took it out. They made cities/towns with walls separate environments from the world map proper, so having people jump over the Imperial City wall to find not a city but a large blank patch of ground simply wouldn't do. And in addition, adding fast-travel obviated the need for the small but potent suite of travel spells (Intervention, Mark, Recall, Jump, and any others that I missed). On the other hand, I had a lot of fun jumping from the middle of a Morrowidian town to the top of the hill adjacent. Basically, if the jump required a Featherfall effect to keep from being lethal, it was a good jump. And coming as I did to Oblivion from a Morriwind point of view, I missed being able to do that.

 

[WorldFree55]

It's not an issue.

It's not even a problem that appears solely with video game development:

People don't want change. Then they ***** about how nothing has changed.

Flawed logic is flawed.......seriously.

We ***** when things don't change. We also ***** when things change and are worse for it.

I'd say that's a fair reason to *****.

Except your wrong on the last part. The change is for the better not the worse. You look at it like there just taking away ONE armor slot and putting no improvements (much more needed improvements mind you) in other areas which is exactly what Bethesda is doing with Skyrim. That is why the complaining is with all due respect, VERY moronic.

 

[Gatx]

This is exactly why I would rather have the, in my opinion, broken enchantment and spell creation system removed. A game is boring if you know that you can just 'cheese' past everything if you want. Just look at some of the replies on some oblivion threads 'lol why would you do that when you can just make yourself invisible and walk past everyone' :|

I think it's pretty funny people argue against streamlining then they want the game to be as simple as possible (chameleon 100% etc) for the 'sake of fun'.

Isn't that streamlining?!?

Why even bother playing the game at all if not to take part in the challenge of the gameplay?

Also streamlining and cheating are definitely not the same thing. The "cheating" only existed because of the robust magic system in the game, you know, because the game gave you options.

For me at least, I hate min-maxing stats anyway so that part isn't what bothers me, it's the loss of a customization option. The greaves and torso armor make up the majority of your character's appearance and now I don't have a say in that, I only get to pick from the presets the dev decided on. It's definitely a non-issue if you're not really a role player and you just want to run around and kill dragons, but for people who care a lot about making a unique character, it's a big loss.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Count me among one of those who see the lack of balance as a selling point. Morrowind is a single-player game, so balance is kind of a non-issue. And honestly any system that imposes an artificial balance between people who control cosmic forces with a thought, word, or gesture and people who hit stuff with pointy sticks is pretty silly in my eyes, and OP casters/enchanters is pretty much a staple of the fantasy genre. After all, what was LoTR if not a quest to destroy the "broken enchanted ring" that Sauron made?

Well then, why were Mages absolutely pathetic individuals whose sole objective was to reach the point where they wouldn't have to rely on their own feeble abilities any more? If they had set out with the conscious intent to make magic incredibly powerful to match the lore of the game world they were creating and then informed players that not playing a mage would make the game a lot harder then that would have been respectable. As it is, they clearly attempted to balance it and just failed by making a few power strategies which just overwhelmed everything else.

When I say breaking the game, I mean actually breaking the game. Seriously, you can complete Morrowind's final encounter so fast that the game cuts out halfway through a line of dialogue or just bugs out and doesn't actually acknowledge that you've won because what you just did was technically impossible according to the design document. And I'm not kidding about completing the game in 8 minutes either. Look up Morrowind speed runs on Youtube.

The most powerful class in Morrowind (not that class ever matters in the Elder Scrolls because you'll spend most of the time levelling non class skills to get the best attribute boosts when you level up) was not a caster at all, but a custom class with a random combination of the few abilities with a noticable gameplay effect + enchantment and alchemy.

There's also a difference between thematic imbalance and silly imbalance. Some games can get away with having slightly silly logic (I've promoted Dwarf Fortress too much already, but you can probably think of examples), but how goofy would it have been to show Sauron chugging his own weight in intelligence boosting potions prior to crafting the one ring because that was the only way he could make it overpowered enough?

Well, for you the easy solution is to not make game-breaker spells and let everyone else have our fun. After all, it's a single-player game

But re: your specific arguments,

That's usually how mages work. The term usually used is "linear warriors, quadratic wizards. [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LinearWarriorsQuadraticWizards]" Wizards are basically always quadratic or boring. If they are able to do the things we expect casters to be able to do (control minds, go invisible, fly, etc) they are always going to be overpowered in comparison to people who can't. The ability to control something's mind is always going to beat something that has a mind, the ability to go invisible is always going to beat something that relies on being able to perceive its enemies, the ability to fly is always going to beat land-based melee opponents, and so on. You can't "balance" these things to make the fights fair, because the whole point of these abilities is to make the fights unfair.

And re: the thematic thing, potions in basically any game but Witcher and Witcher 2 are monumentally silly for any class. More to the point, from the broader perspective the wizard carefully planning and preparing for a major work of magic is absolutely thematically appropriate. And I'm not convinced there's a single "most powerful class" in Morrowind, because whether you break Morrowind with illusion magic, restoration magic, a +enchant suit, a chameleon suit, or alchemy, it's exactly 100% broken no matter how you achieve that. Oblivion is equally breakable, but the rules are slightly different - illusion, stealth, shield suits, chameleon suits, and so on.

But it really boils down to rule of fun [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfFun]. I find it enjoyable to be able to jump across a continent, control the minds of enemies, avoid threats by going invisible, insta-kill enemies with cool spells, permanently immobilize enemies with powerful curses, and cast strings of spells to increase my own power. The ability to do stuff like that was awesome in Morrowind and (for me) the only thing that salvaged Oblivion. If you don't find it enjoyable, nobody's forcing you to do any of this stuff - it's a single-player game, after all.

In the words of Varrsuvius from Order of the Stick,

"As if it is OUR fault that they chose a class not capable of doing everything."

 

[Saelune]

I like freedom. Choosing what I wear is freedom too. And fuck mods. Mods mods mods. How about we ship a game that is fine as it is so us non modders can enjoy it. Not everyone mods and not every problem should be answered with "mod it".

You...don't have to be a Modder to add mods. It's ususally quite easy.

And I'm not saying adding robe design mods to DA:O absolves Bioware of their sins! Yeah, sure they were too busy making 120 hours worth of high-quality story content to add a few extra robe designs. They are at fault. Doesn't mean we can't fix that fault ourselves as opposed to just bitching about it. Calm down lady.

Also, I'm sure Skyrim will have plenty of sneaky, stabby, gothic clothing.

*looks at my 360* Well...maybe not everyone is a PC gamer.

 

[ChupathingyX]

Except your wrong on the last part. The change is for the better not the worse. You look at it like there just taking away ONE armor slot and putting no improvements (much more needed improvements mind you) in other areas which is exactly what Bethesda is doing with Skyrim. That is why the complaining is with all due respect, VERY moronic.

It's not so much what has been taken away, but what it represents.

Since Morrowind, Bethesda have been dumbing down their RPGs and giving players less and less choice so that they can have things like better graphics.

In Morrowind you could chose to be part of much more factions, could use different types of weapons such as spears and crossbows and make your character look much more unique.

Since then these options have been slowly taken away and the games have become much more dumbed down.

 

[Kahunaburger]

In Morrowind you could chose to be part of much more factions

The factions were what Oblivion was really missing. (Well, that and the ability to do stuff like jump across continents, but you know what I mean.) I mean seriously, Telvanni alone > every faction in Oblivion but Theives' Guild. The world of that game was just so bland!

 

[ChupathingyX]

The factions were what Oblivion was really missing. (Well, that and the ability to do stuff like jump across continents, but you know what I mean.) I mean seriously, Telvanni alone > every faction in Oblivion but Theives' Guild. The world of that game was just so bland!

Exactly, no Scrolls of Icarian Flight made me sad.

But seriously in Morrowind there were actual proper factions that were against each other, every faction had allies and enemies, you could only join one great house (glitches aside) and you could even join the Imperial Legion.

I also agree that the Thieves Guild was the best faction in Oblivion, the final quest was...wait for it...difficult, and unique.

Now we have Skyrim, instead of the Fighters Guild we have..."The Companions". What is this a paramilitary police force or a YMCA?

 

[WorldFree55]

Except your wrong on the last part. The change is for the better not the worse. You look at it like there just taking away ONE armor slot and putting no improvements (much more needed improvements mind you) in other areas which is exactly what Bethesda is doing with Skyrim. That is why the complaining is with all due respect, VERY moronic.

It's not so much what has been taken away, but what it represents.

Since Morrowind, Bethesda have been dumbing down their RPGs and giving players less and less choice so that they can have things like better graphics.

In Morrowind you could chose to be part of much more factions, could use different types of weapons such as spears and crossbows and make your character look much more unique.

Since then these options have been slowly taken away and the games have become much more dumbed down.

Now explain to me exactly how they have been dumbing down the RPG elements of the game because i have seen little if not none of that at all. And your saying it's just for graphics? Have you read the improvements on the other areas of the game itself? Graphics was the last thing that was Betheda's mind in the six years of development of the game.

I was able to do that same thing in oblivion and I will do the same in Skyrim. What's the difference if you use a crossbow or a long bow? Your still getting the same result. Your character is going to be more unique here then the past games of the series including Morrowind.

Again, Dumbed down is the most overused word in any game nowadays. And i don't think most people here (including you) know what the word dumbing down a game even means. Skyrim is becoming more ROLE PLAY (which is what RPG means) then number crunching. This is not DnD or World of Warcraft. You will get to feel apart of the whole big world of Skyrim by making choices that would make yourself unique that would affect the landscape of the world and be able to be who you want to be and do whatever the hell you want. One armor slot is not going to change all that.

There are MUCH MORE good reasons for this action then that one trivial negative.

 

[Droppa Deuce]

Man I'm getting pumed right now.

I'd like Daedric gauntlets, Frost Atronach Helm, Glass Cuirass, Sheepskin greaves and frickin Dwarven Boots!!!

I'm so angry I'm about to benchpress twice my body weight.

 

[Kathinka]

COMPLETELY coincidentally, is this thing also getting released on consoles? this question, of course, is utterly unrelated..

 

[6_Qubed]

The factions were what Oblivion was really missing. (Well, that and the ability to do stuff like jump across continents, but you know what I mean.) I mean seriously, Telvanni alone > every faction in Oblivion but Theives' Guild. The world of that game was just so bland!

Exactly, no Scrolls of Icarian Flight made me sad.

But seriously in Morrowind there were actual proper factions that were against each other, every faction had allies and enemies, you could only join one great house (glitches aside) and you could even join the Imperial Legion.

I also agree that the Thieves Guild was the best faction in Oblivion, the final quest was...wait for it...difficult, and unique.

Now we have Skyrim, instead of the Fighters Guild we have..."The Companions". What is this a paramilitary police force or a YMCA?

Well, with a name like that, they're clearly an escort service.

EARN THAT M RATING BABY WOO-HOO

 

[ChupathingyX]

Now explain to me exactly how they have been dumbing down the RPG elements of the game because i have seen little if not none of that at all. And your saying it's just for graphics? Have you read the improvements on the other areas of the game itself? Graphics was the last thing that was Betheda's mind in the six years of development of the game.

I was able to do that same thing in oblivion and I will do the same in Skyrim. What's the difference if you use a crossbow or a long bow? Your still getting the same result. Your character is going to be more unique here then the past games of the series including Morrowind.

Again, Dumbed down is the most overused word in any game nowadays. And i don't think most people here (including you) know what the word dumbing down a game even means. Skyrim is becoming more ROLE PLAY (which is what RPG means) then number crunching. This is not DnD or World of Warcraft. You will get to feel apart of the whole big world of Skyrim by making choices that would make yourself unique that would affect the landscape of the world and be able to be who you want to be and do whatever the hell you want. One armor slot is not going to change all that.

There are MUCH MORE good reasons for this action then that one trivial negative.

Well for one they're giving you less options to choose from, that definately hurts the whole role0playing aspect.

But everything aside the absolute worst offender in Bethesda's "role-playing" games is that they always force you to join specific factions, even in Morrowind.

*Morrowind - You have to side with the Empire and defeat Dagoth Ur and the Sixth House.
*Oblivion - You have to side with Martin and become his errand boy.
*Fallout 3 - You have to join the BoS and fight against the Enclave, even blowing up the Citadel is stupid as it doesn't represent joining the Enclave, neither does inserting the FEV into the purifier.
*Skyrim - Now we don't know much about story but we already know that you are once again the "chosen one" and by the looks of it you have to use your powers to kill the dragons ans uppossed big bad guy. Unless they pull another Oblivion/Fallout 3 and have some giant thing do all the fighting for us.

Not just that but even other factions in general. Morrowind had much more factions than Oblivion to choose from and even had decision making when it came to things like great houses and other factions that were enemies with each other. Then there's also the Bloodmoon expansion that had a plit main quest with two different paths.

Having more weapons means having a greater way of defining your character. Also you claim that Skyrim will allow us to be whoever we want, but hasn't it already been made clear that we are Dovakhiin, Dragon Born or whatever and that we are some prophecy and all that usuall fanatasy stuff?

Also I doubt graphics was low on the list of things for Bthesda to do, Pete Hines, the masterful PR manager he is, even came out once saying that anyone who thinks that graphics aren't important is an idiot and that graphics are the most important aspect of modern games...PR my ass.

Like I've said before, it isn't the actual greaves being removed that is bad, but what that represents.

 

[ImmortalDrifter]

I like freedom. Choosing what I wear is freedom too. And fuck mods. Mods mods mods. How about we ship a game that is fine as it is so us non modders can enjoy it. Not everyone mods and not every problem should be answered with "mod it".

You...don't have to be a Modder to add mods. It's ususally quite easy.

And I'm not saying adding robe design mods to DA:O absolves Bioware of their sins! Yeah, sure they were too busy making 120 hours worth of high-quality story content to add a few extra robe designs. They are at fault. Doesn't mean we can't fix that fault ourselves as opposed to just bitching about it. Calm down lady.

Also, I'm sure Skyrim will have plenty of sneaky, stabby, gothic clothing.

*looks at my 360* Well...maybe not everyone is a PC gamer.

Well Bethesda pulled one of their best moves in my books by bringing player generated content into the console versions. And who said mods are just for fixing things? Is my Sauron armor a fix? No, but it's fucking awesome.