Poll: The Falklands
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and somehow you seem to see france and britain as the cause of all this?, that they could of just swept germany away (being higly demilatarised due to economic troubles) and then take on russia? they didnt have the bloody resources!, the resources came when the americans decided to lend it to us!, we might've stopped germany but the costs would of been huge, and then russia would have taken you, and then sweeped across mother fucking europe!, you complaints all of them require people to throw away Long term stragedy for the sake of short term solvements that wouldn't help anything! Poland! was a lost cause as were all countries east of germany for the simple fact that england couldn't of reached them in time, england and france went to war for poland dont dare diminish the sacrafices of their families by saying they didn't try. and who the fuck came to england and frances aid? America? fuck! if they had gotten involved earlier too by your reckoning! why arn't you flaming them instead of the countries that dived into WW2 because they promised to fight for you? america didnt even join for you!Abedeus said:
france could've saved ireland from centuries of oppresion from the english, even spain! they failed terribl do i dimminish there attempts? do i call them pathetic? do i blame them for the shit done to my country? NO I DO NOT! the fact that they tried is all that means to me, i dont even hate the english!, because amazingly, i dont care what happened in the past, providing we learn not to repeat mistakes.
All true, although I'd like to point out we Brits also like to see things simply these days too. "Its all the banks fault!" is a tad simply - yes, they where primary players in this disaster, but still, if people didn't take out loans they couldn't repay in the first place, the house prices wouldn't have bubbled up making the banks need to loan out more and then so on and so forth.Bretty said:
Yup, the banks where (and remain) very stupid in their action, but I also like to remember people did accept loans that they couldn't repay. Add to that, 'the banks' don't exist as people exist. They are coporations employing 100's if not 1000's of people in a structured system - if the structure is even alittle off, the whole thing can acquire an expotental growth of risk/danger.
For example, a bank as a single continuous system should issue loans to safe credit risks. However, what happened was:
1) Shareholders what to see a growth in profit
2) Management issue an order for more loans to be issued to increase profit so they can keep their jobs
3) The employees on the ground need to make management's desires happen, or they risk losing their jobs too, so they sell risker loans.
4) Repeat until corporation implodes.
But this is a topic hijack anyway, so...
The Falklands should have the right to decide their own future.
Concerning Poland and the Second World War, I'm sort of with the Poles on this one. Not only did their pilots fight bravely during the Battle of Britain, the Poles also provided us with vital information about the Enigma machine, including a working model, if I remember rightly; saving many thousands of Allied lives, and significantly shortening the war effort. I think we could show a little more appreciation.
That being said, I don't think that there's much we could've done to help in 1939. I'm no historian, but I don't see how we could have prevented Poland being occupied. However, after the war, the Western Allies pretty much abandoned the Eastern Bloc for a quiet life from the Soviets, and that's shameful. Once again, I'm not sure how much we could've done, but the fact we could have done more in 1945 to ensure Eastern Europe had the opportunity to decide its own fate seems largely beyond doubt.
Concerning Poland and the Second World War, I'm sort of with the Poles on this one. Not only did their pilots fight bravely during the Battle of Britain, the Poles also provided us with vital information about the Enigma machine, including a working model, if I remember rightly; saving many thousands of Allied lives, and significantly shortening the war effort. I think we could show a little more appreciation.
That being said, I don't think that there's much we could've done to help in 1939. I'm no historian, but I don't see how we could have prevented Poland being occupied. However, after the war, the Western Allies pretty much abandoned the Eastern Bloc for a quiet life from the Soviets, and that's shameful. Once again, I'm not sure how much we could've done, but the fact we could have done more in 1945 to ensure Eastern Europe had the opportunity to decide its own fate seems largely beyond doubt.
Now how have we not shown appreciation? what do you want people to do? throw a parade? The colonies of allied countries got a pat on the back, and grudgenlly their freedom as appreciation but only after a decade or two, ireland got a statue, countless others got shit but they still were acknolledged, Poland your deeds are written down in history, you took shit, you fought impossible odds, and lost, but still that took balls, you supplied soldiers to help free your country, and yes you helped supply vital information, you are admired,YOU BEGAN THE GODAMN TOPPLING OF COMMUNISM! NO ONE SAW THAT COMING!you are admired and appreciated, NOONE HAS SAID DIFFERENTLY in the end, this war KILLED people, it killed my family, it killed your family, It killed everyones damn family, what makes polands losses anymore important than my families? or other peoples families? You got appreciation, every country was appreciated for their commitments to the war, what more do you want? what else is their too say or do? we are 50 years away from that now, it is my favourite piece in history, it shows our stupidity, our sence of right, our barbarianism. take the lesson learnt, and move onkailsar said:
Poland was deep behind USSR lines by 1945, and they were not giving them back, stalin forsaw the american shpere of influence and he needed his own in the east, Propaganda was heavily anti-west, he even claimed hitler was alive and well in chateaus in the west, to turn people against the west, there was no way to peacefully get poland out of russian control, and by this time EVERYONE was sick and tired of fighting, they had lost enough loved ones without starting another war altogether,and with the threat of nuclear war, who would be fucking stupid enough to jump into war? they did what they could under the circumstances im sorry you had to deal with russian opression, but dont claim that other countries never gave a fuck about you.
Everything you've said is completely true, and as far as showing appreciation is concerned, I was mainly talking about people on this thread, but not you in particular: I just feel that a couple of Polish people came here, with a genuine and deeply held grievance. They felt that British people didn't give them the credit that they deserve, and we really don't. Sure historians have documented the contribution of Polish men and women, but British people by and large don't appreciate that effort. But nearly every British person who came on to this thread to talk about Poland just attacked their idea that Britain could have done more, rightly or wrongly.Pandalisk said:
You're right, it was fifty years ago. I just feel that given the outstanding efforts by the few Poles who were able to help the Allies, there's nothing wrong with saying 'thank you' from one British person to a Polish person, even though the whole business had nothing to do with us personally.
As I said in my original message, I don't claim to be a historian. I don't know how much influence Britain could have had on the Yalta conference concerning Eastern Europe. But we did nothing to help them, and I can understand them feeling aggrieved, considering what they did for us.
Sure, we were all tired of fighting. If I were alive in 1945, I'd have probably felt the same way. But we left all those people to fifty years of oppression and although we probably couldn't have done that much about it, we owed them the attempt at least. I understand the reasons why we did not, but I felt that someone should at least acknowledge their point of view.
Learn History!Abedeus said:
First off, food rationing was going on in most warring countries including Germany.
Secondly, we managed to fight off the nazis all on our own during the battle of Britain and no it was not just a matter of time seeing that the nazis were already starting to get thier asses kicked on the eastern front.
Look who's talking.The infamous SCAMola said:
You ignored all the allied pilots you had during the Battle of Britain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-British_personnel_in_the_RAF_during_the_Battle_of_Britain#Polish_contribution
Next up, Nazis were getting asses kicked... later. Summer 1940 as opposed to Soviets driving Germans away in 1944.
And for more doubts (like Poland giving up fast or Bliztkrieg being new) or why SOMEHOW it was Poland vs Germany, Soviet Union and Slovakia, while Battle of Britain was Britain, Poland, New Zealand, Canada and few more VS Germany and Italy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Poland#Myths
Finally, in that Non-British personnel wikipage, you may also notice that Poland did have the most personnel.
You know why it was somehow All of those countries vs The Axis?Abedeus said:
Because they were all part of the British empire.
And saying that Polish pilots singlehandedly won the Battle of Britain is still a vast overstatement.
Haha, this is pure logic xDWasder said:
Anyhow, Britain gave a lot of manpower and many lives in order to defend the Falklands, on top of that Argentina has no claim to it what so ever, and I highly doubt that the people of the Falklands would choose to have sovoreignty given to the Argentinians.
Anyhow, a referendum would indeed be the most democratic solution, and the most logical considering we are, after all, a nation founded on the ideals of democracy.
In my opinion they should remain British. I mean seriously they have been British for hundreds of years and letting them choose wouldn't change a thing since they are all liking beng British anyway (more than I can say for us people that actually live in Britain). And if we're going to give them a choice why not give Scotland a choice?