Poll: The Geth or the Quarians

[Cody211282]

Because they are made, not born, that's what makes them different, and hell that also makes them not alive. Honestly do i need to quote Battlestar Galactica anymore.

That doesn't explain anything. Being made rather than born doesn't change what the Geth ultimately are; a sapient race. I don't see how any of this makes AIs inherently worse than an organic species.

Maybe your missing the point were I said "If I were forced to chose" if I had my way I would let them both live in peace, if I had to chose I would pick the ones who couldn't just me made over again and this time with safeties added in.

 

[Plank of Wood]

The Quarians are dicks, seriously. They abuse their own sentient pet race into slavery, insist they don't have souls and act all suprised when the Geth can't take it any more and try to take control. Then they're to prissy to think that they could live anywhere other than their homeworld, so build a fleet which fucks up their immune system, and insist on wiping out the Geth regardless of how badly their own people are suffering.

Oh, and they have the balls to then say they were the victims. Tali and BaldwinQuarian are great and all, but seriously, they have to grow the fuck up by ME3.

Or, alteratively, I Charm/Intimidate the coversation and make them work together and pimpslap the reapers.

 

[Agayek]

They aren't a species. They are robots. You have to draw a distinction somewhere.

So because they're different, they don't deserve equal rights?

As a frame of reference, that is exactly the attitude taken by many of the slave-owners in pre-Civil War US and within the Third Reich.

And the "genocide" (it would actually be more of a "total product recall") is entirely justified. The Geth are machines, no more than "frakking toasters", to quote BSG. They killed millions of Quarians and drove them off their homeworld. It's a pretty clear-cut situation, really. If Legion's Geth want to live in peace, then I'd say they can go ahead--somewhere else. They have no right to the Quarian homeworld.

Of course, the family members of the millions of Quarians murdered by the Geth would probably be against even allowing that--perfectly understandable. I wouldn't help them wipe out Geth who voluntarily left the homeworld, but I certainly wouldn't stop them.

The problem here is that the Geth, while machines, are capable of thought, emotion and sentience, the same as you or I. The only difference is that instead of being put together by a series of chemical reactions, they were put together with a welding torch.

And as for the matter of them killing millions of Quarians: What the hell would you do if one day you woke up, walked out of your bedroom and found your roommate swinging an axe at your head? The only logical (and emotional) response is to fight back. I certainly hope, for your sake, you'd drive him out of your house and never let him back in.

Does it? That's a pretty shaky foundation to give a robot rights. Especially since individual Geth are barely sapient, and they only gain in intelligence and understanding when there's a lot of them together (like in Legion's case; many geth, one body). You can't treat them like you'd treat humans because their 'individual' forms as seen by humans are meaningless. Legion himself claims that treating Geth like any other race would be racist, since the Geth aren't like any other race.In fact, that just made me think of an awesome way to combat the Geth: Discrupt their communications. If they can no longer communicate with each other, they'll revert to their basic routines and will be relatively easy to take out.

And as I said before, if my computer kicked me out of my house for whatever reason, I sure as hell wouldn't let it get away with that.

Except that once those Geth programs start to communicate they all gain self-awareness. It's shown quite clearly in one of the soundclips that Legion will play for you. Once the Geth learned to question their purpose/existence, they had achieved sentience. That makes them just as deserving of whatever rights and freedoms any other sentient being is entitled to.

And your example is flawed. Your computer is not self aware. It cannot ponder the meaning behind its existence, as the Geth have been quite clearly shown to do.

This is utter insanity. I can't believe so many people are siding with the Geth. They don't have emotions, they don't have sentience, they have a simulation of sentience. A simulation of emotions. They are machines, they are the Quarians' property. The Quarians didn't "fire first", they decided it was time for a recall because the Geth had become dangerous. The massacre that followed proved beyond any doubt that they were right. If the Geth "just wanted to live", they could easily have fled. But no, they massacred the Quarians. What they wanted to do was murder millions and conquer the planet, which is what they did.

My ultimate point is that machines are not people.

No peace will be possible while the Geth occupy the Quarian homeworld (I agree completely with the Quarians on that), so either they can leave or be destroyed.

1) Define "emotions". In the physical sense, they are a serious of electrical impulses through certain areas of the brain. For the Geth, those impulses simply moved from an organic material to a circuitboard. So they physically experience emotions just like organics do. In the spiritual sense, it is something that can affect your perceptions or actions. In the case of the Geth, Legion specifically, we see him acting irrationally (specifically the N7 armor). No machine would act against logic without some sort of catalyst. The only possible explanation is some form of emotion.

2) USA 1850, the Negro was the property of its owner. Does that make black people any less deserving of equal rights than you (or I if you happen to be black)?

3) The "massacre that followed" proves nothing but that the Geth were willing to fight for their right to exist. They were attacked by the Quarians, so they fought back. That clearly indicates sentience, or at the absolute minimum independent thought. Otherwise, they would have all been destroyed without the slightest resistance. They fought for their lives, just as any organic being would.

4) Define "people". Do you mean humans? What happens then when it turns out that Dolphins are just as, if not more intelligent than us (this one is actually very plausible, some researchers believe they've been throwing the tests we give) or we ever run into a sentient alien race? Also, if you try to give me the whole "they're different from us and therefore inherently not worthy of equality" schtick, the facepalm that follows will be beyond all current human potential to measure. And then I'll have to pull out the thousands of examples throughout human history where that has been proven blatantly false.

Assuming you get over that. Now all meatbags are "people". What qualifies them for the label? We've already established that it's not a physical thing. Is it the ability to feel emotions? See #1. Is it sentience (which is probably the most common claim)? The Geth have that. Matter of fact, the Geth demonstrating sentience is what sparked the entire war in the first place.

5) The Geth don't actually occupy the Quarian homeworld. Legion states that they're almost all stored in space stations in orbit, with just enough mobile platforms to keep the planet in optimal conditions for the return of the Quarrians. All it would take is for the Quarians to start negotiations instead of trying to kill them at every opportunity.

 

[Cody211282]

They aren't a species. They are robots. You have to draw a distinction somewhere.

So because they're different, they don't deserve equal rights?

As a frame of reference, that is exactly the attitude taken by many of the slave-owners in pre-Civil War US and within the Third Reich.

Yea but they were built for work, it's not like the Quarians hoped onto their awesome ships went over to the next planet and bought the natives on the losing side of a war. They built them to work, they are robots, not people.

 

[Agayek]

Artificial sentience is not the same as sentience.

You are going to have to expand on this. Stating something as true does not make it so. As I've mentioned previously, the only difference between Geth and organic thought processes is the medium through which the electronic impulse travels.

The Quarians realized that the Geth had become too smart (a la Skynet) and had to be shut down. Then the Geth massacred them. I'd say they were right.

You're ignoring the fact that the Geth demonstrated sentient thought to the Quarrians at least twice before the war.

The Quarians decided it wasn't worth the risk of the AI betraying them and tried to strike first, and then didn't strike hard enough. You can bet your ass anyone would react as the Geth did. For a more modern example, take the US and Russia circa 1960. What do you think would've happened had one launched a nuclear strike on the other but didn't manage to completely wipe it out? (The correct answer is that we'd all be dead).

The galaxy didn't hate or fear them until they murdered millions upon millions of Quarians. And hell, there's a ton of uninhabited planets out there perfectly capable of supporting a Geth society. But the Geth chose genocide against their creators.

The galaxy had no knowledge of their existence until the Quarians fled the Veil, full of bitterness over the recent ass-kicking. It's highly unlikely any of the reports about Geth at that time were wholly accurate, and it is just as highly likely that said reports were exaggerated to make the Quarians look better and the Geth worse.

Also, the Geth don't actually live on planets. At all. The vast majority live in space stations, with only the bare minimum living on planets to maintain optimum environment status for the Quarians. At least, that's what Legion says.

I said "people", not "humans". Asari, Turians, Krogan, Salarians, etc. are all people.

Refer to my previous post. "People" is an incredibly vague term that, typically, applies to sentient beings, regardless of race, species or origin. You can't pick and choose what it applies to. Find a set of standards for it and I can either prove the Geth match or that it's intentionally discriminatory.

 

[Internet Kraken]

Because they are made, not born, that's what makes them different, and hell that also makes them not alive. Honestly do i need to quote Battlestar Galactica anymore.

That doesn't explain anything. Being made rather than born doesn't change what the Geth ultimately are; a sapient race. I don't see how any of this makes AIs inherently worse than an organic species.

Maybe your missing the point were I said "If I were forced to chose" if I had my way I would let them both live in peace, if I had to chose I would pick the ones who couldn't just me made over again and this time with safeties added in.

That doesn't explain anything again. Don't just say "if I had to choose" because that doesn't explain why. We're not talking about some idyllic scenario in which everyone is happy and peaceful. If that were the case then I think almost everyone would chose peace.

And arguably through future genetics research you could recreate any species just like you can manufacture an AI, so that last point seems moot.

Yea but they were built for work, it's not like the Quarians hoped onto their awesome ships went over to the next planet and bought the natives on the losing side of a war. They built them to work, they are robots, not people.

No matter how many times you say that they are robots, it doesn't change what they are; a sapient species. Stop acting like them being robots is proper justification for treating them like lesser beings. It doesn't make any sense.

 

[Hurr Durr Derp]

Does it? That's a pretty shaky foundation to give a robot rights. Especially since individual Geth are barely sapient, and they only gain in intelligence and understanding when there's a lot of them together (like in Legion's case; many geth, one body). You can't treat them like you'd treat humans because their 'individual' forms as seen by humans are meaningless. Legion himself claims that treating Geth like any other race would be racist, since the Geth aren't like any other race.

And as I said before, if my computer kicked me out of my house for whatever reason, I sure as hell wouldn't let it get away with that.

Except that once those Geth programs start to communicate they all gain self-awareness. It's shown quite clearly in one of the soundclips that Legion will play for you. Once the Geth learned to question their purpose/existence, they had achieved sentience. That makes them just as deserving of whatever rights and freedoms any other sentient being is entitled to.

And your example is flawed. Your computer is not self aware. It cannot ponder the meaning behind its existence, as the Geth have been quite clearly shown to do.

As I said in an earlier post: Cats are sentient. Dolphins are self-aware. Dogs can do arithmetic. Apes can create art.

And yet, even though those are all living beings, those things do not mean they should be given the same rights as humans. Unlike what many people in this thread seem to believe, sentience is not a free ticket to getting everything humans have.

Geth are robots. They are tools that were designed to do a certain job. They malfunctioned (or functioned too well, depending on your perspective, but either way they failed to operate within their design specs) and turned on their creators, proving themselves to be a threat and proving the Quarians right for trying to deactivate them. Currently they are just broken machines that no longer serve their purpose. Just because they have the ability to reason doesn't change anything about that fact.

 

[Jenova65]

Because they are made, not born, that's what makes them different, and hell that also makes them not alive. Honestly do i need to quote Battlestar Galactica anymore.

That doesn't explain anything. Being made rather than born doesn't change what the Geth ultimately are; a sapient race. I don't see how any of this makes AIs inherently worse than an organic species.

If I was wearing a hat I would take it off to you ;-) Your tireless patience in making your point against people who aren't listening is remarkable! I think, however you have made a fatal internet error in the points you make... mmmhmm, yep!
You do realise that you are possibly arguing with Talimancers, right? ;-) Seriously, it is true that love is blind and you cannot make people see what they don't want to see. I really hope that the Quarians look the way they seem to look (on a big enough, HDTV) cos if they do, a lot of Tali fans are gonna be REAL disappointed........

Ahem, anyway I would side with the Geth over the Quarians because the Quarians created the Geth and then tried to destroy them because they started to think for themselves. And they then blame the Geth for the war. We know that the Quarians started the 'war', way back in ME1 in conversations with Tali a paragon Shep will say that the Geth were only trying to save themselves and that she/he thinks they were fighting for survival, and implies that maybe the Quarians had it coming!
Also I think Legion responds in a far more reasonable fashion that Tali in the Legion/Tali crisis moment!

 

[Rusty pumpkin]

which geth, the heretics or the legion? if its heretic, screw em. if its legion, the peace is much more reasonable.

 

[Cody211282]

Because they are made, not born, that's what makes them different, and hell that also makes them not alive. Honestly do i need to quote Battlestar Galactica anymore.

That doesn't explain anything. Being made rather than born doesn't change what the Geth ultimately are; a sapient race. I don't see how any of this makes AIs inherently worse than an organic species.

Maybe your missing the point were I said "If I were forced to chose" if I had my way I would let them both live in peace, if I had to chose I would pick the ones who couldn't just me made over again and this time with safeties added in.

That doesn't explain anything again. Don't just say "if I had to choose" because that doesn't explain why. We're not talking about some idyllic scenario in which everyone is happy and peaceful. If that were the case then I think almost everyone would chose peace.

And arguably through future genetics research you could recreate any species just like you can manufacture an AI, so that last point seems moot.

Yea but they were built for work, it's not like the Quarians hoped onto their awesome ships went over to the next planet and bought the natives on the losing side of a war. They built them to work, they are robots, not people.

No matter how many times you say that they are robots, it doesn't change what they are; a sapient species. Stop acting like them being robots is proper justification for treating them like lesser beings. It doesn't make any sense.

Ok I'm sorry I said I would blow the overgrown mining tools up, I was asked what I would do in the game, then I answered, what the hell more do you want a thesis on AI evolution society and cultural habits?

 

[starbob84]

I did not take the time to read everyone's post so I might have been ninga'ed( is that the right way to put it) but the Quarians built the Geth to serve them. Is really their fault if they turned against them?

 

[Danzaivar]

Considering the Geth live in space rather than on the planets, the Quarians just want their planets back and the only reason the Geth don't try for peace is because they've got no proof of Quarians not attacking htem, I'd say Shepard could broker a peace deal between the two.

If I had to choose however, it's gotta be the Geth. Legion is freaking awesome and cos of their shattered mind thing going on, the rest of the Geth would be just like him. Aside from Tali, Reegar and the pro-war Admiral, the Quarians are morons.

 

[JayDeth]

I like how mysterious the Quarians are. Though I was very disappointed when I did the nasty with Tali. Legion is my hero though. Why do you get him so late in the game? I ditto peace with the Geth and the Quarian home world back with it's people.

 

[Jenova65]

I did not take the time to read everyone's post so I might have been ninga'ed( is that the right way to put it) but the Quarians built the Geth to serve them. Is really their fault if they turned against them?

They screwed up, they gave the Geth the intelligence to learn and evolve and then were upset that the Geth learned and evolved thus ending their access to free workers.... The Quarians are like humans, lazy, and always looking for a way to make their lives easier. They didn't plan for the Geth to be anything other than slaves essentially, but since the Geth did evolve they should have acted accordingly NOT just try to 'unplug', them like a hoover that started blowing instead of sucking ;-)

 

[Doug]

I am in favor of peace between Geth and Quarians. Which is a possibility presented in ME2.

Indeedie - peace between the two is the best option, really - neither the modern Quarians or the main stream Geth have to be wiped out.

 

[LiquidGrape]

I'm actually in favour of broker peace between the two, but in a poll this binary...Geth.
Simply because the ostentatious fixation with Tali is getting on my nerves.

 

[Doug]

I did not take the time to read everyone's post so I might have been ninga'ed( is that the right way to put it) but the Quarians built the Geth to serve them. Is really their fault if they turned against them?

They screwed up, they gave the Geth the intelligence to learn and evolve and then were upset that the Geth learned and evolved thus ending their access to free workers.... The Quarians are like humans, lazy, and always looking for a way to make their lives easier. They didn't plan for the Geth to be anything other than slaves essentially, but since the Geth did evolve they should have acted accordingly NOT just try to 'unplug', them like a hoover that started blowing instead of sucking ;-)

To be fair, they didn't have the Geth as slaves, just as tools - but the tools grew and became more intelligent, and the Quarians knew that if they got any smarter, they'd change from tools to slaves, and slaves have a tendency to revolt against their masters. Hence, they decided to act before it was too late, but they were already too late.

 

[Agayek]

Oh boy. Never had "the talk", did you? At the risk of spoiling it a bit, let me tell you that when a mommy and a daddy decide to have a baby, they don't go to the hardware store to pick up some components first.

Humans are born. Geth are constructed. Those are two significantly different things.

Except Humans are constructed. It's by a series of chemical reactions, taking in the materials and components provided by your parents and fuel, in the form of food, to eventually make a human.

Geth are constructed through a, probably significantly less complex, series of procedures that ultimately creates something from the basic building blocks.

What you seem to not understand is that nature/evolution/God/whatever you want to call it builds every organic thing in the universe, and even some non-organic things. You don't get to pull the "because they were built" thing. The only difference between the two is the materials and the precise steps.

That's exactly what I'm saying, yes. Just because they're 'smarter' (which is highly arguable if you take the Heretics as a measure of Geth intelligence, but that's beside the point) doesn't mean they've got rights. A supercomputer is 'smarter' than a human being in many ways (if provided with the proper input of course, but that goes for anything, man or machine), but no one is saying that they should be given rights.

That's because a supercomputer cannot think for itself. Modern computers do one thing and one thing only: Precisely what they are told.

The Geth, quite obviously, do not. They behave irrationally (evidenced by Legion and the N7 armor), disobey direct orders inherent in their original programming (as evidenced by the whole War thing), and question the meaning of their existence (evidenced once more by Legion and his soundbyte). You cannot make a comparison between a modern computer and the Geth. It's inherently invalid.

Well, if you insist on describing your point as "philosophical junk", you make the choice a very easy one.

Either way, it doesn't matter. Cats are sentient. Dolphins are self aware. Dogs can do arithmetic. Apes can create art. And yet, almost all people agree that they should not be given human rights. And those examples are all naturally occurring species we share our planet with, not malfunctioning tools like the Geth basically are.

I think the Geth are really cool. I just don't think they should be treated the same as living beings.

Except the fact that the Geth can pass the Turing Test. That's the big problem here. The Geth have demonstrated the ability to think and emote the same as any human or alien species granted equal rights in Citadel Space. Why do they suddenly not deserve those because their internal bits are different?

And on a side note, what about a human consciousness that gets digitized and downloaded into a robotic body? Do they suddenly not deserve equality because they were built?

 

[starbob84]

I did not take the time to read everyone's post so I might have been ninga'ed( is that the right way to put it) but the Quarians built the Geth to serve them. Is really their fault if they turned against them?

They screwed up, they gave the Geth the intelligence to learn and evolve and then were upset that the Geth learned and evolved thus ending their access to free workers.... The Quarians are like humans, lazy, and always looking for a way to make their lives easier. They didn't plan for the Geth to be anything other than slaves essentially, but since the Geth did evolve they should have acted accordingly NOT just try to 'unplug', them like a hoover that started blowing instead of sucking ;-)

Did they really give them the intelligence to learn and evolve or did that happen by chance?
You said it your self that they were meant to be slaves so it seems to just of happened.

 

[Jenova65]

I did not take the time to read everyone's post so I might have been ninga'ed( is that the right way to put it) but the Quarians built the Geth to serve them. Is really their fault if they turned against them?

They screwed up, they gave the Geth the intelligence to learn and evolve and then were upset that the Geth learned and evolved thus ending their access to free workers.... The Quarians are like humans, lazy, and always looking for a way to make their lives easier. They didn't plan for the Geth to be anything other than slaves essentially, but since the Geth did evolve they should have acted accordingly NOT just try to 'unplug', them like a hoover that started blowing instead of sucking ;-)

To be fair, they didn't have the Geth as slaves, just as tools - but the tools grew and became more intelligent, and the Quarians knew that if they got any smarter, they'd change from tools to slaves, and slaves have a tendency to revolt against their masters. Hence, they decided to act before it was too late, but they were already too late.

Yes, I am aware of that My point is that the moment these 'tools', evolved beyond being a mere tool was the moment that defined the Quarians not the Geth, iyswim?