Poll: This may sound stupid, but are Elves an allegory for Native Americans?

[Cowabungaa]

I wouldn't be surprised if they indeed represent 'natives', those kind of people don't just exist in America you know, in some media. Their overal way of life just makes it very easy to use them that way.

Are they originally made as an allegory? No, elves are way older than that.

 

[Johann610]

Can you explain the ending then? The elves have to get on a ship and sail "to the East"? Is this a "viking funeral"? Are they on a "Trail of Tears"? Are we implying that the AmerIndians went somewhere more pleasant?

 

[ElPatron]

America before England and Portugal

No Spain? By the way, the English had pretty good bowmen...

 

[Westaway]

Yeah, I can see that. But not in all fantasy; the elves you described are a staple for most fantasy games, so I doubt every single one is trying to get that metaphor across.

 

[Hammartroll]

The Tauren from WoW are more obvious representations of Native Americans, but after reading some books and watching the movies, I never compared Tolkien's elves to indians.

 

[Saviordd1]

America before England and Portugal

No Spain? By the way, the English had pretty good bowmen...

Depends on the Native American, I think he was referring to the Northern Tribes not the Southern Empires

OT: I agree to a point but didn't tolkein base most of his stuff off norse mythology?

 

[MorganL4]

Actually almost everything about the elven people in Tolkien's world is based off of the Finish People the appearance the language etc

http://www.amazon.com/National-Geographic-Beyond-Movie-Fellowship/dp/B00005UV3Q/ref=sr_1_cc_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1318719353&sr=1-3-catcorr

watch that..... You will get your explanation.

 

[ElPatron]

America before England and Portugal

No Spain? By the way, the English had pretty good bowmen...

Depends on the Native American, I think he was referring to the Northern Tribes not the Southern Empires

Then the Portuguese were not there either.

 

[Raziello]

Dont forget the celtic & pagan influences.

 

[Jessta]

A few major differences,
Elves excelled in archery as a form of war and sportsman ship where the natives primarily had it as a form of hunting and survival, and even then if I remember correctly it was more spears than actual archery
Elves were thin and dainty that were advanced to the point where they worked with nature not under it like natives did.
Elves weren't at constant war with themselves in Tolkiens books like then Native Americans were.
Elves put a great deal of work on behaving civilized and treated nature with respect because they wanted to.
Natives were more of a barbaric type that treated nature like an unknown and offered their respect to it more out of fear than love, I say that based on the fact that now that Natives don't have any reason to fear nature they've started treating it poorly (they kill animals that are beginning to die out for traditions sake not for survivals sake and that I consider no better than sports hunting. Also from the batch of natives I have met they have no qualms with harming animals for fun because and I quote "They're just stupid animals".)
Elves were thin and dainty where as Native Americans were robust and tough.
Elves were extremely prosperous before humans came, they had little to no conflict, almost no problems and were pretty much in a perfect world where they could get what they needed and a bit more without worrying about running out resources or fighting for control of things.
whiles its true Native Americans had a lot of resources, they didn't know how to use most of them and lacked most the of convinces of civilized living. they were hardly in some sort of perfect Nirvana before white people came.
Of course the term just Native American is a pretty broad specification as there were hundred of tribes originally and each had their own beliefs and cultures.

 

[dmase]

I would say any native culture. Elves usually have some society where they are at one with nature and spirituality. A lot of African, American, and Asian tribes where like that.

I think elves are only light skinned because they are white as ghosts, it's supposed to be symbolic. So skin color isn't really that important.

 

[Albino Boo]

I am peaty sure that is not the case. I think Tolkien was drawing from Anglo-Saxon mythology. Also Tolkien denied any allegorical reading of his work (excluding Leaf by Nigle an shot story that has no elves). Also I don't think elves hold up to the Native American analogy. Elves being good at archery as a trope came after Tolkien. While Legolas was an archer many other elves fought with swords. Also Elves taught men most everything they knew. Nature Worship would also be to simple. They were closer to the earth because they lived forever while human souls always sought outside the world, but did not worship the nature. Tolkien did establish his own gods for middle earth and the elves new them, but never really worshiped them in the way we understand it.

Tolkiens elves are pretty much straight of Norse Mythology mixed with 19 century romanticism. He mixed and matched bits and pieces to from a coherent vision. His work was largely escapist, but this isn't surprising seeing that Tolkien had served in the trenches in WW1 and wrote Lord of the rings during WW2.

 

[The-Epicly-Named-Man]

Tolkien is Tolkien, you never mess with what the man says, he basically wrote the laws, books, and bi laws, and Commandments of fantasy writing and worlds in general, but I can question what I take from it right?

Indeed you can, in the same way I can criticise your theories.

From what I've learned from elves over the years they are tall, fair skinned, people that excel in archery, worship nature, and were extremely prosperous until humans came in and f***** up their s***.Sounds like America before England and Portugal and evryone else got here. Anyone else think this was intentional or just coincidental?

This is a misconception. In most modern fantasy, this is the case, but that's to do with "white guilt" and other writers who've bought into this idea. However, in Tolkien's lore, the reason the elves are dying out is because of the orc invasion and emigration to the West. This to me sounds much more like the plight of the Jews in WWII, not the massacres of the indigenous Americans. We also have to remember another of other factors that probably won't apply to you.
Number 1 is that Tolkien was English. The colonisation of the New World probably wasn't as prominent an influence on him as it is on you (I'm assuming you're American). Secondly, he was born and brought up in a period where the Native Americans were still internationally considered uncivilised savages. Even westerns from the mid-1900s present them as the unambiguously evil murderers. This would suggest that even if he had thought much about the Native Americans, that he wouldn't have much sympathy for them. This is of course speculation, but it's speculation that makes much more sense your speculation.

 

[NathLines]

I'm pretty sure that they are just an excuse for having eternally beautiful women in a story.

 

[SckizoBoy]

Coincidental. Elves represent the ideal sections of humanity in Tolkien's time; physically fit, intellectually advanced, and artistic. It's more about different faculties of humanity (dwarves being industry, elves being medicine & art, orcs being greed & hatred). Or at least that's my opinion.

And consequently, humans have a modicum of all of those attributes which is what makes them... well, human.

OT: I'm not seeing it... pretty much at all.

The main point is the politics. The Native Indian tribes continuously squabbled among themselves, rarely ever allying with their neighbours. Considering their numbers, knowledge of the land(s) and general British contempt for them, had they united, if only briefly, things would've been different.

Anyway, not the point, 'high' elves of typical high fantasy almost never fight among themselves (I am yet to read a story in which they do, and I mean out of true enmity, Malekith the Witchking notwithstanding). They are forever the epitome of racial unity (after a fashion) and civility, part of a doomed utopia, as it were.

 

[Robert Ewing]

I'd say they where more like the Roman Empire. Or Scandinavian.

Not native american though. The Tauren are native American ;D

 

[JoesshittyOs]

I see them more as the "civilized" world of an advanced culture (like the elves, or the Roman Empire) being ruined by barbarians (men, or Germanic tribes). They are still around, but much weaker afterwords (Byzantium?). I am no lore buff, but I think that makes a bit more sense.

This was actually pretty clever. I never thought of it this way, but it makes sense.

 

[Aidinthel]

I don't think so. Generally elves have superior technology/magic, so the comparison doesn't really hold up.

 

[Veylon]

Tolkien's Elves? No. He didn't concern himself with the Americas.

His Elves are the early peoples of Europe and the memories of them by those who came after, those who clung to forest and mountain refuges as Celtic, Roman, and Germanic invaders washed over them. They had to master their inhospitable environments or be annihilated. Stories grew up around the "old people" and the legendary powers they supposedly had.

 

[viranimus]

Elves didnt start out that way, However since Tolkien there have been many incarnations that also show elves as a dying breed and oppressed minority.

More modern media has sort of painted them in such a light, much like the way that The Witcher and Dragon Age portray them as unwanted and loathed peoples who once held dominion over the land but have since fallen closer to obscurity. Even Tolkien does this with the exodus of elves.

But its not that they are inherently an allegory for the native american Indians. Its more that repetitive painting of elves in such a motif has colored peoples impression that many times that is what they think of.