Poll: Thrall or Garrosh?

[FrozenCones]

I choose option 3, Ghazghkull.

He'll beat dem grotty excuzez fer Orks till they're 'ard enuff an' den lead 'em to true glory! WAAAAAGH!!!

You receive item [1 internet]

Thrall. No question. He was a born leader and fought for what was important. Garrosh's philosophy is pretty much "stick axe in man"

 

[Irony's Acolyte]

I don't know a huge amount about Garrosh (my knowledge of the Warcraft-verse is more from Warcraft III then WoW), but I do know that I respect Thrall alot. It really helped that he was the one to rebuild the Horde during the time of the Scourge rather than some other hot-headed blood-thirsty orc (like Grom Hellscream). He wanted peace for his people and did alot to help turn the Horde from the relegated bad-guys to a side that can be easily rooted for.

From what I know of Garrosh he's rather strong in his convictions and I can respect him in that but his beliefs aren't so noble. He doesn't really seem to care as much as Thrall about the unity of the Horde, so I'm not really that big of a fan of him.

 

[Kagim]

Lets look at this from two different perspectives.

Lore and story wise, Thrall is clearly the better leader and the highest and best chance of ever forging peace among the nations of Azeroth, and if this were a book or movie, it's only Varynns inability to move on and realize the safety and peace of his people should go before his own personal resentment. Varynn is an asshole and he should have been the one to turn to crystal, not Muradin though that would require Varynn to do something out of nobility, not vengeance and spite.

Seriously Varynn should choke so Anduin can lead the Alliance.

However... All of what i just said i totally mean...

... If this was a movie, or a book, or a game that is supposed to have an ending. It's not.

Talking strictly from a Gameplay perspective Garrosh is the greatest thing to happen to the horde since sliced Varynn. It allows the horde quests to be redesigned with a more action and frantic pace to them. It allowed for the barrens to be turned into the totally kickass war zone it is now. It allowed Blizzard a great deal of lee way in redesigning areas to be more action filled and fun. Garrosh was a peaceful leader, Garrosh isn't, war ensues. Gameplay wises, Garrosh is the coolest mother fucker. EVER.

That's how i see it at any rate.

 

[Doctor Glocktor]

Lets look at this from two different perspectives.

Lore and story wise, Thrall is clearly the better leader and the highest and best chance of ever forging peace among the nations of Azeroth, and if this were a book or movie, it's only Varynns inability to move on and realize the safety and peace of his people should go before his own personal resentment. Varynn is an asshole and he should have been the one to turn to crystal, not Muradin though that would require Varynn to do something out of nobility, not vengeance and spite.

Seriously Varynn should choke so Anduin can lead the Alliance.

However... All of what i just said i totally mean...

... If this was a movie, or a book, or a game that is supposed to have an ending. It's not.

Talking strictly from a Gameplay perspective Garrosh is the greatest thing to happen to the horde since sliced Varynn. It allows the horde quests to be redesigned with a more action and frantic pace to them. It allowed for the barrens to be turned into the totally kickass war zone it is now. It allowed Blizzard a great deal of lee way in redesigning areas to be more action filled and fun. Garrosh was a peaceful leader, Garrosh isn't, war ensues. Gameplay wises, Garrosh is the coolest mother fucker. EVER.

That's how i see it at any rate.

How is Varian a bad leader in any way?

 

[Kagim]

How is Varian a bad leader in any way?

Because for much of WoW he has essentially been the only thing keeping peace between the two factions.

Despite the fact Thralls parents, family, clan all met there death at the same Horde as Varynn's he can't look past that and see the new horde for what it is while Thrall was able to see the good his people could become.

Because while both Thrall and Varynn were slaves and gladiators Thrall is willing to look past what the humans did to him while Varynn, yet again, is incapable of letting it the fuck go, even though his night elf friend(his name escapes me) whom he was a gladiator with not only managed to let it go but befriended Hummel, a Tauren.

Because he tries to indoctrinate Anduin with bullshit, he is shocked when he learns Baine isn't a mindless killing machine like daddy always said he was. In fact despite the fact the Night elves openly traded with the Horde up until WotLK, Varynn still refused to acknowledge the massive evidence of THEY JUST WANT YOU TO FUCK OFF.

Because the only reason why Varynn isn't a baby killer is because Anduin would have seen him murder the baby.

Sure, he is a good leader in the sense his people aren't starving to death. However much of the wars that have and are currently happening? Is because he can't let personal issues go.

Despite the fact both Tauren and Night Elf alike were massacred in Ashenvale Varynn still thinks the Horde did it. It was the twilight's hammer by the way.

Despite the fact the horde was slaughtered at the Wrathgate as well "Lol i saw Thrall in Undercity, bloodied, bleeding as though from a massive fight! Surely he is the culprit! Lets attack him right away without trying to think for like... Three seconds! I'm a hero!"

Varynn can get fucked.

You can disagree with me, and by all means you have all the right to. After all Varynn isn't real, and this is a video game. My personal feelings of him though? I want him to choke on a radish. So Anduin can lead the Allaince.

 

[Doctor Glocktor]

How is Varian a bad leader in any way?

Because for much of WoW he has essentially been the only thing keeping peace between the two factions.

Despite the fact Thralls parents, family, clan all met there death at the same Horde as Varynn's he can't look past that and see the new horde for what it is while Thrall was able to see the good his people could become.

Because while both Thrall and Varynn were slaves and gladiators Thrall is willing to look past what the humans did to him while Varynn, yet again, is incapable of letting it the fuck go, even though his night elf friend(his name escapes me) whom he was a gladiator with not only managed to let it go but befriended Hummel, a Tauren.

Because he tries to indoctrinate Anduin with bullshit, he is shocked when he learns Baine isn't a mindless killing machine like daddy always said he was. In fact despite the fact the Night elves openly traded with the Horde up until WotLK, Varynn still refused to acknowledge the massive evidence of THEY JUST WANT YOU TO FUCK OFF.

Because the only reason why Varynn isn't a baby killer is because Anduin would have seen him murder the baby.

Sure, he is a good leader in the sense his people aren't starving to death. However much of the wars that have and are currently happening? Is because he can't let personal issues go.

Despite the fact both Tauren and Night Elf alike were massacred in Ashenvale Varynn still thinks the Horde did it. It was the twilight's hammer by the way.

Despite the fact the horde was slaughtered at the Wrathgate as well "Lol i saw Thrall in Undercity, bloodied, bleeding as though from a massive fight! Surely he is the culprit! Lets attack him right away without trying to think for like... Three seconds! I'm a hero!"

Varynn can get fucked.

You can disagree with me, and by all mans you have all the right to. After all Varynn isn't real, and this is a video game. My personal feelings of him though? I want him to choke on a radish. So Anduin can lead the Allaince.

Thrall met Tarethra, who showed him humans can be good. THAT is why he can trust the Alliance; he actually had a good human show him that the human race isn't evil. Who has Varian had, hmmm? Garona murdered his father, Thrall lets the Warsong and the Forsaken actively murder members of the Alliance, and Garrosh is Garrosh.

Also, what? Anduin always had respect for the Horde leaders. I dunno where your pulling that from.

The night elves didn't 'openly' trade with the Horde Varian offered to trade with Thrall SPECIFICALLY because the night elves cut off trade with the Horde.

The Horde want the Alliance to fuck off? Alright, how about the orcs get the Hell off the planet they invaded, stop attacking the Alliance for no reason, and actually attempt for peace. You know, like the Alliance has since Vanilla?

I've read the Shattering as well, and you're thinking of the wrong sceneario. Only Cairne and Thrall knew of the meeting of the night elves and tauren. The only one that Varian heard about is the one where the night elves were cut up and had their skins painted with a Horde emblem. And remember; you, as a player have the knowledge that it was the Twilights Hammer. Varian did not.

Despite the fact the Horde were slaughtered at the Wrathgate, there were still humans locked up for experiments in the undercity, and the fact that Thrall is such a bad leader he wouldn't know about the plague, or so afraid of Sylvanas that he wouldn't tell her to cut that shit out.

Andiun is a good kid, but Varian is the best leader of the Alliance because hes the only one who FIGHTS BACK.

 

[Paragon Fury]

Thrall.

With him, there was chance for peace, or at least understanding.


With Garrosh, shit gonna go bad. Gonna go real bad, real quick, if his actions in the Cata zones are any indication.

 

[Cheesepower5]

Thrall is a better leader, more badass over-all and a lot less of a dick.

But have you SEEN Garrosh's polearm? I can't freakin' wait to get my troll warrior to level 60 so I can use that thing.

 

[JUMBO PALACE]

Thrall led the Horde through a lot of tough shit in Warcraft 3/Frozen Throne.
He deserves it.

This. Thrall is clearly qualified.

 

[Zer_]

You guys remember that epic as hell thread that had the whole list of better Warcheifs than Garrosh?

My vote was for Huge Brown Sack...

I don't play anymore, so enough of that. At least Thrall is guardian of Azeroth.

 

[Strife17O7]

Thrall...Progressive ftw. Haters gonna hate.

 

[Kagim]

Thrall met Tarethra, who showed him humans can be good. THAT is why he can trust the Alliance; he actually had a good human show him that the human race isn't evil. Who has Varian had, hmmm? Garona murdered his father, Thrall lets the Warsong and the Forsaken actively murder members of the Alliance, and Garrosh is Garrosh.

He also met Thrall. Not many people know about Garona lore wise, afterall they were utterly alone and most of Llanes people knew nothing over her. Remeber she hid in a curtain during meetings. Thats how she could so easily kill him. He has hundreds of allies that interact and work with the horde every day who basically wave a huge sign saying "hey dudes! These guys are cool! Leave me alone!"

The Forsaken don't murder the Alliance, they fight the scarlet crusade. They aren't part of the alliance actually. There level of alliance murder is right on par with alliance horde murder.

Actually, the warsong conflict was mostly in game. Lore wise, the horde and the night elves of ashenvale traded, quite often, up until the northrend expedition took so many resources that they honestly couldn't, as well as the Wrathgate where Varynn lost his shit. They make note of this in the shattering.

Also, take note, WARCRAFT 3. You know, where if it wasn't for Thrall leading the horde across the sea in the first place the world would have been fucked. MANY humans worked side by side with the horde. You would think Varynn would listen to some of those guys... Apparently not.

THE ARGENT FUCKING DAWN.

I've read the Shattering as well, and you're thinking of the wrong sceneario. Only Cairne and Thrall knew of the meeting of the night elves and tauren. The only one that Varian heard about is the one where the night elves were cut up and had their skins painted with a Horde emblem. And remember; you, as a player have the knowledge that it was the Twilights Hammer. Varian did not.

It's Varynn's paranoia and eagerness to damn the horde.

Remember, the horde has NEVER done something like that before. Thrall kinda points this out.
Jania is repeating like a Parrot that it wasn't the horde.
Thrall responded to Varynn about the incident, promising to punish those responsible. Of course he didn't apologize, his people were starving because of the no trading. It would look weak in a time of civil unrest.

Varynn makes no attempt to investigate the matter. He simply screams "THEM EVIL HORDE! THEY DO IT RAWR!" without thinking, for a second, "hey, even if it was honestly members of the horde what if they did it outside of the hordes knowledge! Sorta Like the Defias?"

He INSTANTLY jumped to the conclusion they did it under direct orders from Thrall.

Despite the fact the Horde were slaughtered at the Wrathgate, there were still humans locked
up for experiments in the undercity,

Scarlet Cruesade

and the fact that Thrall is such a bad leader he wouldn't know about the plague, or so afraid of Sylvanas that he wouldn't tell her to cut that shit out.

Sylvanas hid the plauge because she knew Thrall would have the foresight to stop her. However Thrall made the terrible mistake of trusting his allies rather then constantly investigating the inner most deepest parts of there sanctums(Remember, most of the undercity didn't even know about the plague)

That's sorta like saying the only reason Moria came to power is because Varynn was to shitty of a leader to make sure Muradin wasn't an asshole to his daughter and have her husband murdered.

He obviously isn't afraid seeing as how as soon as the incident was over Undercity is now crawling with Korkron. With one of it's leader specifically in the laboratories.

Andiun is a good kid, but Varian is the best leader of the Alliance because hes the only one who FIGHTS BACK.

Yes fight back agaisnt...

The orcs who moved to a desert called the BARRENS to try and get as far away from everyone as they could and only find conflict in the navy who followed them to the desert.

The trolls who just want there fucking echo isles and to be left alone.

The Tauren of mulgore who, once again, just want to be left alone to there eternal hunt and up till now Varynn didn't know fuck all about them.

The Forsaken that only wanted two things. Lorderan, Arthases head on a fucking platter.

The blood elves the humans basically said "Go die in a fucking hole" to. For no reason past "Man fuck those guys"

And the goblins, whom only ended up allying with the horde because the alliance tried to murder Thrall and his girlfriend as they were off to another dastardly deed... No wait, they were off to save the world.

 

[Sinister1211]

Thrall because he has the mental capacity to lead his people, not just his army

 

[Frotality]

thrall is a bit to trusting and nice for the current political climate, i can understand that, but literally ANYONE but garrosh would have been a better replacement. you have an alliance king who just returned wanting to kill every orc that'll put up a fight....and in his place thrall put an orc that wants to kill any human that'll put up a fight. now, considering a world-destroying dragon is out there, now might not be the time for an all out war. thrall has experience and actually wants peace, garrosh was a depressed loser who heard his father's murderous rampage was actually beneficial to the orcs and decided to go on murderous rampages trying to live up to him.

besides, if the alliance ever tried to take advantage of thrall's peaceful desires, sylvannas would just plague the hell out of them for him; thrall could also actually reason with her, instead of just insulting and further provoking her like garrosh. speaking as an undead main, im worried what garrosh will eventually antagonize her into plagueing next...

 

[Doctor Glocktor]

Thrall met Tarethra, who showed him humans can be good. THAT is why he can trust the Alliance; he actually had a good human show him that the human race isn't evil. Who has Varian had, hmmm? Garona murdered his father, Thrall lets the Warsong and the Forsaken actively murder members of the Alliance, and Garrosh is Garrosh.

He also met Thrall. Not many people know about Garona lore wise, afterall they were utterly alone and most of Llanes people knew nothing over her. Remeber she hid in a curtain during meetings. Thats how she could so easily kill him. He has hundreds of allies that interact and work with the horde every day who basically wave a huge sign saying "hey dudes! These guys are cool! Leave me alone!"

The Forsaken don't murder the Alliance, they fight the scarlet crusade. They aren't part of the alliance actually. There level of alliance murder is right on par with alliance horde murder.

Actually, the warsong conflict was mostly in game. Lore wise, the horde and the night elves of ashenvale traded, quite often, up until the northrend expedition took so many resources that they honestly couldn't, as well as the Wrathgate where Varynn lost his shit. They make note of this in the shattering.

Also, take note, WARCRAFT 3. You know, where if it wasn't for Thrall leading the horde across the sea in the first place the world would have been fucked. MANY humans worked side by side with the horde. You would think Varynn would listen to some of those guys... Apparently not.

THE ARGENT FUCKING DAWN

I've read the Shattering as well, and you're thinking of the wrong sceneario. Only Cairne and Thrall knew of the meeting of the night elves and tauren. The only one that Varian heard about is the one where the night elves were cut up and had their skins painted with a Horde emblem. And remember; you, as a player have the knowledge that it was the Twilights Hammer. Varian did not.

It's Varynn's paranoia and eagerness to damn the horde.

Remember, the horde has NEVER done something like that before. Thrall kinda points this out.
Jania is repeating like a Parrot that it wasn't the horde.
Thrall responded to Varynn about the incident, promising to punish those responsible. Of course he didn't apologize, his people were starving because of the no trading. It would look weak in a time of civil unrest.

Varynn makes no attempt to investigate the matter. He simply screams "THEM EVIL HORDE! THEY DO IT RAWR!" without thinking, for a second, "hey, even if it was honestly members of the horde what if they did it outside of the hordes knowledge! Sorta Like the Defias?"

He INSTANTLY jumped to the conclusion they did it under direct orders from Thrall.

Despite the fact the Horde were slaughtered at the Wrathgate, there were still humans locked
up for experiments in the undercity,

Scarlet Cruesade

and the fact that Thrall is such a bad leader he wouldn't know about the plague, or so afraid of Sylvanas that he wouldn't tell her to cut that shit out.

Sylvanas hid the plauge because she knew Thrall would have the foresight to stop her. However Thrall made the terrible mistake of trusting his allies rather then constantly investigating the inner most deepest parts of there sanctums(Remember, most of the undercity didn't even know about the plague)

That's sorta like saying the only reason Moria came to power is because Varynn was to shitty of a leader to make sure Muradin wasn't an asshole to his daughter and have her husband murdered.

He obviously isn't afraid seeing as how as soon as the incident was over Undercity is now crawling with Korkron. With one of it's leader specifically in the laboratories.

Andiun is a good kid, but Varian is the best leader of the Alliance because hes the only one who FIGHTS BACK.

Yes fight back agaisnt...

The orcs who moved to a desert called the BARRENS to try and get as far away from everyone as they could and only find conflict in the navy who followed them to the desert.

The trolls who just want there fucking echo isles and to be left alone.

The Tauren of mulgore who, once again, just want to be left alone to there eternal hunt and up till now Varynn didn't know fuck all about them.

The Forsaken that only wanted two things. Lorderan, Arthases head on a fucking platter.

The blood elves the humans basically said "Go die in a fucking hole" to. For no reason past "Man fuck those guys"

And the goblins, whom only ended up allying with the horde because the alliance tried to murder Thrall and his girlfriend as they were off to another dastardly deed... No wait, they were off to save the world.

Garona had pledged loyalty to Varians father. Varian personally witnessed her cutting his heart out.

Who are these hundreds of allies? Jaina? He listened to her about the Horde before, and that lead to him almost being killed by Garona.

The forsaken fight the Scarlet Crusade, yes, but you seem to be forgetting Hillsbrad foothills. Slaughtering civilians, and in Cataclysm, plaguebombing hillsbrad and DESTROYING GILNEAS.

The humans in warcraft 3 only worked alongside orcs because they were forced to. This is pretty damn obvious in the cutscenes.

The humans locked up weren't scarlet crusade, otherwise Varian wouldn't have had them rescued. The Alliance hate the Scarlet Crusade as much as everyone.

Sylvanas didn't hide the plague. If she did, then how come, pre-cata, there were so many quests talking about that plague, and having Horde players, of any race(!), collect the reagents?

The Alliance has constantly been fighting off Horde aggression. Why shouldn't they fight back?

 

[Kagim]

Garona had pledged loyalty to Varians father. Varian personally witnessed her cutting his heart out.

Once again, this was during the first war, where thousands of orcs were trying to kill them. Once again, these are the SAME ORCS that murdered THRALLS people. A fact THRALL was able to grow past.

Who are these hundreds of allies? Jaina? He listened to her about the Horde before, and that lead to him almost being killed by Garona.

Argent Dawn

The Night elves.

His god damned SON.

Whats funny is this, he gives them one shot during a tentative truce that the alliance is actively breaking and, surprise surprise, someone tries to kill him. "Well FUCK THEM things didn't go PERFECTLY CLEARLY I NEED To COMMIT GENOCIDE!"

The forsaken fight the Scarlet Crusade, yes, but you seem to be forgetting Hillsbrad foothills.

You seem to forget The proudmoore navy. A contingent of Alliance soldiers directly encroaching on Horde territory. Also remember If you play for Horde side, all your quests are mostly about fighting back. One in particular is about avenging murdered guards of Tarren Mill.

Edit: The alliance also slaughters pig farmers in Hillsbrad as well. Oops.

Slaughtering civilians, and in Cataclysm, plaguebombing hillsbrad and DESTROYING GILNEAS.

Both tactics that were agaisnt DIRECT ORDERS from Garrosh. A fact you learn WHILE PLAYING AS THE WORGEN.

Also remember the BRONZEBEARD dwarves are OPENLY encroaching on Horde territory and desecrating Tauren land. Digging up the earth is a massive insult to Tauren and the dwarves were doing it in fucking mulgore not to mention the barrens.

The humans in warcraft 3 only worked alongside orcs because they were forced to. This is pretty damn obvious in the cutscenes.

Many White people were infuriated about working with blacks back during the real world wars.

Oddly enough, many of there perceptions changed after actual fighting took place. Who is to say the same could not have happened?

The humans locked up weren't scarlet crusade, otherwise Varian wouldn't have had them rescued. The Alliance hate the Scarlet Crusade as much as everyone.

I'll give you that.

Sylvanas didn't hide the plague. If she did, then how come, pre-cata, there were so many quests talking about that plague, and having Horde players, of any race(!), collect the reagents?

Your mixing game mechanics up with lore. They couldn't just close off the opening quests to players. People would *****. Lowbe quests are how people get rep with other factions back in the day. Cannon wise,(edit: sorry ONLY ONE, the player) forsaken did it. The book about Arthas explains that Sylvanas was secretly developing the plague to specifically kill Arthases minions. The plague was pretty damn hush hush.

The Alliance has constantly been fighting off Horde aggression. Why shouldn't they fight back?

No, they fight off ORC aggression. Fan fact, the backhands are not part of the true horde. The dragonmaw up till Cata were enemies of the Horde as well.

Almost every faction of troll is insane or evil except Darkspear, should we hold darkspear accountable for them to?

How about the grimtotem?

Maybe the Bronzebeards should be held accountable for there Dark Iron cousins.

Should stormwind be held responsible for the actions of Defias? What about the actions of the scarlet Crusade? You even say they are enemies of the Alliance? What reason, lore wise, do most people have to believe that isn't bullshit?

The night elves seemed capable of moving past things despite the fact the warsong killed there god. Remember, when talking about lore, The night elves and horde were trading openly for a long time.

 

[doctorjackal777]

Thrall all the way. I know he's gone off to do something really important, and I trust that he's gonna get it done. But seriously I don't feel safe in Azoroth on either side of the faction divide without Thrall as War-Chief.
The Horde has always been a little shaky as far as alliances are concerned. That's because a lot of them are deals made for convenience rather than many races coming together for one shared goal. But with Garrosh in charge it's only a matter of time before he drives everyone else away. He started with the Trolls, has moved onto the Undead and I wouldn't be surprised if the Tauren were next.
If we as players wanna keep our PvP going the way we love it, then the Horde has to be a united force to oppose the Alliance. With Garrosh in charge it won't be long before the Horde is in tatters and the game will be the Alliance vs a random scattering of other races.
My main used to be Horde, in fact I had an entire server just for my main horde characters. Since Cata though I've lost joy in playing that side. Class changes, new races on the Ali side and the fact that I just don't like who I'm supposed to be serving anymore made me switch over, and unless something changes I dunno if I'll be going back.

 

[Ladette]

I despise Thrall, he's a Mary Sue/Author Avatar who's only flaw is "being to nice". For that reason I will never like him as a Warchief or a character. Unless he goes insane his character has no room left to grow, since he's Jesus the only step up is becoming God, which i'm pretty sure was being considered.

Garrosh's political skills might be a bit lacking, but at least he has real flaws. Now if only Blizzard characters didn't suck and he had a little depth he might be more intresting. He's got room to be developed, but the Blizzard writing staff isn't skilled enough to make it happen in a believable way.

Between the two I prefer Garrosh, but only because he's less bland than Metza....I mean Thrall.

 

[ZomgSharkz]

I guess I prefer Thrall mostly because I play Undead and he actually left us alone. Now Garrosh comes along and he's trying to make us like...DO stuff. Lame right? He's like the overbearing mother coming back to live with us after we hung out with our irresponsible older brother for the last few years....maybe. I'll be quiet.

From a less joking, more lore focused standpoint though, I honestly have trouble picking a favorite. Thrall was a cool guy, and I admired him for pushing for peace even though he was effectively dealing with a bunch of five year olds (I'm looking at you Varian). Still, considering the Horde is dealing with the aforementioned five year olds, Garrosh's approach seems much more practical considering the situation. Yeah he probably could have done his whole "Death to the Alliance" thing without pissing off basically all of his allies, but what are you going to do? Plus, if you've played through the Stonetalon zone as a Horde you can attest to the fact that despite some forced badassary, he is still one hell of a badass.

Well I suppose I have to pick one, lest I be seen as indecisive, so I'll leave you with this...

SYLVANUS FOR PREZ!!!!!!!!!!!!

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[z3rostr1fe]

Thrall!