Very true, Ghibli really does do their own thing. Also it IS for a project, but it's not your fault for not knowing because I wanted to avoiding putting that in the OP. However, since it's clearly relevant information, I should have put it in. It's been edited now.Bara_no_Hime said:
Poll: To the anime haters
- Thread starter axlryder
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then sent the baby to learn how to be awesome for ALL the masters of awesome all while dumping points in 'epic' as it leveled up. its little brother is Asura's Wrath, needless to say, it looked up to it's big bro XDneonsword13-ops said:I really like the style used in Gurren Lagann.
It's like if a comic book with incredible cell shading and ordinary anime had sweet, lusty sex and made a baby.
So yeah OP the problem is that people problem is that people aren't exposed to the good non-cliched crap. So they end up generalizing a medium with the following:
Stupid hairdo dude fights with phallic symbol against a gay stereotype. (Naruto Bleach, DBZ)
A guy falls into the badly proportioned boobs of little girls who are attacked by tentacles. (Love Hina, Zero no Tsukaima, To-LOVE-Ru)
Magical underage girls with huge eyes fight badly designed monsters with 3 frames of animation and stock footage. (Cardcaptor Sakura, Sailor Moon)
2 gay bishies who hate each other becomes friends and then enemies. (Naruto, Code Geass, Death Note)
When someone points out that does not to all anime or that X example invalidates their stereotype (Planetes deals with hard physics in space). They say they don't give a crap to watch any other stuff because they don't care/are lazy to research something they'd like.
So in the end truly great shows like Monster, Planetes, Mononoke and perhaps Kaiji are ignored because the 14 year old Naruto fans don't get the series/Doesn't appeal to them. The people that would enjoy the shows don't watch them because they think its DBZ again.
Stupid hairdo dude fights with phallic symbol against a gay stereotype. (Naruto Bleach, DBZ)
A guy falls into the badly proportioned boobs of little girls who are attacked by tentacles. (Love Hina, Zero no Tsukaima, To-LOVE-Ru)
Magical underage girls with huge eyes fight badly designed monsters with 3 frames of animation and stock footage. (Cardcaptor Sakura, Sailor Moon)
2 gay bishies who hate each other becomes friends and then enemies. (Naruto, Code Geass, Death Note)
When someone points out that does not to all anime or that X example invalidates their stereotype (Planetes deals with hard physics in space). They say they don't give a crap to watch any other stuff because they don't care/are lazy to research something they'd like.
So in the end truly great shows like Monster, Planetes, Mononoke and perhaps Kaiji are ignored because the 14 year old Naruto fans don't get the series/Doesn't appeal to them. The people that would enjoy the shows don't watch them because they think its DBZ again.
**reads updated OP**axlryder said:
OH! Okay, so you're looking to modify your style to appeal to a wider audience.
Well, you still might want to consider including Noir - it's probably the most 'serious' and 'non typical anime' style anime from my list. Also it might technically be seinen, I can't remember.
Anyway...
I'm not sure anime haters were the people to ask. You're getting a lot of people talking about content, or more specifically the content of the one anime they ever watched (as if all anime were like that one thing they saw, which is a huge fallacy, but whatever), and very few people are actually talking about the art.
I guess a lot of this depends on how exactly you plan to market your work, and with what companies you plan to work. Anime has greatly influenced western animation by this point (I mean, just look at the anime influences in MLP FiM!) so to some degree all western animation (other than 80s retro) is influenced by anime. On the other hand, if you're trying to animate a 'western anime' then I don't think asking haters what they like will really help you appeal to a wider audience. Haters will still ignore your work because it's "that anime crap" they never bothered to explore, so your fan-base will still be made up of anime fans in any case.
Of course, not knowing the details of your work, I'm guessing in the dark here.... so I could be wrong.
No, you're mostly right. The content is something that could definitely appeal to a western audience. I was hoping to get more input as to WHY people don't like the way anime looks, but there's really not a whole lot of awesome reasons being thrown around. I was hoping that maybe tweaking certain features would open up new doors, but based on what this thread has given me the answer to opening new doors really does seem to be "make it not anime". The better input is coming from people who seem to occasionally watch anime anyway. Ultimately, I think I'll just live with the consequences of working with an anime style.Bara_no_Hime said:
Wait, what? We're seriously going to put something as dark and oppressively cynical as Death Note in the same boat as Naruto? Just because 14 year old fangirls are idiots in it for "OMG, the bishie!!"?ex275w said:
Yeah it depends on the audience, little kids like exaggerated characters so look for stuff like Doreamon, Eyeshield 21 and Panty & Stocking. Teens like more realistic looking characters so I think studying stuff like Black Lagoon, Planetes and SHAFT would appeal to teens. For adults study Monster, Berserk, Crying Freeman.Bara_no_Hime said:
Also if you are trying to make something with anime trappings, the haters are still gonna hate even if you appeal to them don't fall into the George Lucas trap of trying to please everyone.
EDIT: Yeah just watch Monster, Berserk, Lone Wolf and Cub, Mushishi, Blade of the Immortals and Crying Freeman. Gunnerkrigg Court is anime influenced and is a cool webcomic so check that.
I don't inherently have a problem with Anime or any sort of art style. I've always been indifferent to it myself. The problem is when half of the young adult population is ripping off the exact same style or just making very small changes because they can't come up with their own.
Fair enough. I suppose as a fan it just irks me that that's the cultural perception I see most often from non-fans, this idea that every show is the same, being the one they saw that was poorly Westernized by 4kids, rather than having its own target audience, like any Western media.ex275w said:
While there are lots of things I really don't care for in anime, the one "art style" aspect that really bugs me (and seems to be present in just about every 'genre' or whatever you call them) is the goddamn HAIRSTYLES.
I will never take a show seriously when half of its characters have hairdos that look like they belong on multicolored porcupines. I just can't.
I will never take a show seriously when half of its characters have hairdos that look like they belong on multicolored porcupines. I just can't.
Generalization is a problem human have to deal with. It helps to some extent if one remembers that exceptions always exist you won't look like a close minded person. Sadly this thread proves not everyone is trained to not to spout generalizations as absolutes.AceofStaves said:
99% of Amercicans who draw "anime" are terrible or mediocre artists. That's not hyperbole, just go on DA. You can go through pages upon pages of anime without finding a single decent, non-derivative image. It's a trend I absolutely hate. They think because anime is somewhat more simplistic that it's easier to draw. Of course, they're wrong, and their complete lack of skill is entirely apparent to anyone with even a modicum of talent or experience. I'm not implying that anime is somehow superior to western art, but so many people post absolute garbage on DA. That said, it's not entirely about originality. There are hardly any really original artists out there, and making a significant tweak to an existing style that visually works is actually a fairly big accomplishment. It's just that so many "artists" are terrible at the style they're emulating, giving the rest of us who draw it a bad name. This is obviously just opinion, of course, but it's still frustrating for someone who actually takes their artwork seriously. Also, no, I didn't draw my avatar btw. That's an image cap from a tomska cartoon.Animyr said:
Honestly, if you're trying to judge the quality of anything based on the works of DeviantArt users, anime or otherwise, you're probably better off hanging yourself now. You'll never be happy.axlryder said:
All good artists have to start from the same initial point which is drawing from real life. DA artists start from tutorials and since "anime" has the "advantage" of looking "complex" and being "simple" to draw they "learn" the style and never improve. I mean to draw a exaggerated person/squirrel/airplane you have to know how they look in the first place.axlryder said:
Cowboy Bebop the shiiiiiiiiiit yo! Miyazaki's are effing amazing too! beyond that, i don't watch anime at all anymore.
Anime definitely tends to make me shudder the same way I do when I see all those little legs on a centipede moving in unison, but, wow, this was a tough decision. I went with Miyazaki, because it really seems to represent a style of it's own. It's sort of how Pixar shares a lot of designs in common with other western cartoonists, but manages to make it very personal and unique.
It was that or Cowboy Bebop, a series I absolutely adore. But the more I think about Bebop it didn't have a particularly unique art style, though it did have interesting ideas and gorgeous backdrops. And a killer soundtrack.
And though I never watched Samurai Champloo I'll admit I'm fond of its art style too. I think I read that it was by the same guys that did Cowboy Bebop though, so that would make sense.
It was that or Cowboy Bebop, a series I absolutely adore. But the more I think about Bebop it didn't have a particularly unique art style, though it did have interesting ideas and gorgeous backdrops. And a killer soundtrack.
And though I never watched Samurai Champloo I'll admit I'm fond of its art style too. I think I read that it was by the same guys that did Cowboy Bebop though, so that would make sense.
To be fair, there ARE good artists on there (among other corners of the internet). They're just far and few between. however, if you can find me a decent sized portal for GOOD American anime artwork, please link away. Sadly, however, I think they represent the majority and tend to shape the internet's perception of what it means to be an "american anime artist", i.e., you post your crappy Naruto doodles on DA. That's what's frustrating about it. I'm pretty sure Gelbooru and Danbooru are all just Japanese artists.AceofStaves said:
I'm lucky that I don't even have to look for anime that isn't like this. All I do is turn on Adult Swim on Saturday (Except Bleach. Bleach I watch and is as you describe).Eggsnham said:
You may try asking for stuff you may like that doesn't compose all of that? They aren't as rare as you seem to think.