Poll: Unschooling: Parenting at it's worst

[AndyFromMonday]

And what about history or basic knowledge of how our country works?

You actually have a class where you're being teached politics? Also, from my memories of being in 1st to 4th grade the basics of your countries history are being taught right there.

Your idea would create people who would know basic arithmatic and MAYBE how to spell the word 'sentence'.

Why would you need anything more than "basic" arithmetics to succeed in life? Also, what school did you attend? Did it have "special" in the name or is the educational system in other countries so fucked up you learn a quarter of a letter/day?

Have you SEEN a 4th grader write or read?

Yes. At least at the school I attended, by 3rd grade there were rarely any problems with writing. Also, are you seriously suggesting that after 4th grade you still do "reading" exercises? Again, did your school have "special" in the name?

I'm more worried about how ignorant the average person is going to be, even beyond the ignorance of today, on the basic things we need to know historically so we don't repeat them.

Again, basic history is being taught in 1st grade to 4th grade. The rest is detailed but I'm pretty sure I don't need to know every detail of how Hitler murdered jews to realize doing so is wrong.

Your system of thought leads to an acceleration of what we have today: A small group of elites controlling everything because their parents kicked their ass and payed for them to go to college, and a large base of ignorant citizens that believe Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly are giving actual news reports.

And why would this happen? If the child is not care then the child will not learn and if the child does not learn the forcing said child to attend classes he's does not care about is a waste.

YOU DO NOT GIVE YOUR CHILDREN CHOICES.

Yes you do. Otherwise, you're forcing a bored child to spend endless hours being teached dabout something he or she does not care about and if the child doesn't care then the child will NOT learn.

... but they do not get to choose at that young age how they want to spend the rest of their life: educated or ignorant.

And how did this "forceful" education work out? Oh yeah, IT DIDN'T!

 

[hawkeye52]

snip

i understand your point of view like i hated doing textiles and art and i dont consider those to be useful to where i was taking my career which is hopefully a solicitor as i will be taking law for university but its the skills and general knowledge that other subjects can offer you change the way you look at things.

for example taking history could give you a much better outlook on issues since you will look to pick out details from within a report and form your own opinion rather then take the reporters point at face value and use that as your opinion and this could lead some very gullible people doing and saying some very stupid things that could ultimately endanger other people. however thats a worst case scenario.

there are other subjects which i think people could benefit if we paid more attention and focus on them like religious education and i mean not just learning about christianity but about all major world religions so we dont form our opinion about people around a few reports that are ultimately gonna be about terrorism or something to that degree. like if i didnt know any better from reports i have heard i could think that all catholic priests are pedophiles and all muslims are terrorists however i know better then that because of my rounded education giving me a much better idea abou the world.

so in other words although learning about a subject could although prove annoying and pointless in reality it could help you indirectly by giving cetain skills like being able to analyse arguments and pick out flaws and then form your own opinion about things around them

 

[Mr C]

It will be a disaster for the children.

Knowledge is power. Knowledge is ability. Knowledge offers perspective.

We live in a democracy, at least most of us here on these forums do. We get to vote on certain issues. Nothing terrifies me more than an ignorant population voting on issues they don't understand.

If you don't give each and every citizen at least BASIC knowledge on science, maths and history, as well as critical thinking skills and social issues, you are raising an uninformed voter who will be easily swayed by bright shiny ads. You are doing society a disfavor and your child a disfavor. Knowledge never hurt anyone.

You could say that state-schooling is "brainwashing". I would content that raising your child in a sheltered home environment, while only exposing him/her to your own way of thinking is the exact definition of brainwashing.

If children are left to their own devices, how many of them are going to learn about the important stuff? How are you going to teach them how to interact with other children? School is as much an experience as a place for knowledge. A vital experience I would think.

Believe it or not, not every child is a perfect, innocent font of curiosity and pleasantness. Not every child is born good. In fact, I believe most children are born as vicious, unpleasant, demanding and lazy creatures, who NEED discipline. Look at our present society right now, where parents let their children run amok, let them hang out on the street and join gangs. Children need school - to teach them about the stuff they don't want to learn. Because it's often the stuff you don't want to learn that's the most important stuff of all.

We already have a problem in the world, what with the average voter's knowledge of science being on par with that of a potato. We have a problem with voters knowing nothing about what the economy is, or what GDP is, or how it's calculated. We already have a collection of people who are easily tricked into believing "We've always been at war with Eastasia". Knowledge is one of the safeguards against tyranny. An intelligent populace is always going to be harder to control than an ignorant, easily terrified mob.

If this goes ahead and the majority of children are "unschooled", expect the economy to fall apart, expect the already dismal level of mathematical competence to drop even further, and expect your average voter to be easily swayed by such eloquent arguments as "Booga-booga-booga Immigrants, booga-booga".

I was becoming very agitated by a lot of comments on this board and was about give my opinion, but I agree completely with this post. As a professional teacher (of Economics if anyone cares) I fully support the notion that everyone be educated at least to a basic level in maths, language and the sciences. What this idea proposes is what hobbies and interests are for - being in a school environment can allow a young mind to find others with similar interests as well as find new paths to follow.

Can you imagine a future where people only do what interests them? How long before your country falls behind (or even further behind) others. If you are from the US (as many seem to be), do you think you will remain one of the largest contributors to mankind's technological advancement? I think not, such achievements require discipline, the cultivation of a mind, social development and wise council. Is the current system perfect, not by a long shot, but social reclusiveness and following flights of fancy is not the answer.

 

[flamingjimmy]

This pretty much constitutes child abuse imo.

 

[Julianking93]

Well, this is pretty much exactly what I do.

I didn't know there was a word for it.

But my parents let me study whatever the fuck I want when I want it and I seem to be turning out just fine.

But is it structured? Is it learning on a website/virtual school (for an example, Florida has FLVS, which, IMO, is great) or out of books, or is it learning what you want when you want how you want?

The two latter.

I study out of books when I want to. Not text books mind you, but regular books and I read what I want to when I want to.

I wouldn't say it's structured because I'm hardly ever told what to do past "you should read this book today" but it's not utter chaos like those biased idiots make it out to be on that news program. I apply myself into whatever it is I'm studying at the time and stick with it.

That's the thing though, you apply yourself to your studies. That's the problem raised, the fact that most people wouldn't.

This I understand, and I get that the reason people are up in arms over this is because a lot of teens don't do what they're supposed to, but not every teenager is like that.

I think if your child has a good set of morals, wants an education and can handle themselves, this would work (and I like to think that I'm proof it works) but when you have a kid who doesn't apply themselves, no schooling is going to get them straight. Not homeschooling, not unschooling, not even regular schooling.

 

[AndyFromMonday]

No, the knowledge you need to know to be a successful (as in, not on welfare) is learned from Kindergarten through College.

Thank you for explaining in detail how General School and High School helps you out in life. Thank you for also explaining how an excess of information helps out a person.

I assume he enjoyed it, or he would have purposely messed up to get out of it.

The stigma associated with skipping or failing school does a good enough job to keep a child in school up until the end.

He's a 5th grader! You'll learn even if you don't enjoy it! If we did what you want, we'd all be morons

He's a 5th grader! You'll learn even if you don't enjoy it! If we did what you want, we'd all be morons

You're actually suggesting that studying a wide range of subjects whose information will rarely be used helps the child? If so, how?

When it comes to fun, I agree. But learning is different. If you don't learn, you become a burden to society. People like that should be put down.

False. By learning in excess you simply burden the child even more when it's obvious that by 5th grade the child has already decided what he or she wants to do in life giving their interest in a certain subject. For e.g. knowing biology won't help you become a lawyer.

So they can discover what they DO want to! In 5th Grade, I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. But I know what I want to do now. I wouldn't have decided if I hadn't learned more.

You can be presented with a majority of subjects that outline the fundamental information needed to study in order to achieve a level of knowledge in said subject and put that knowledge to good use.


However, the above comment is correct. The more you know the easier it is to decide. If grades were removed and school would only be used to give children the necesarry information with the ability for the child to pull out of the class if he has decided I would have no problem with school. Also, it's common sense that when the child decides he would be put in a class which caters to his or hers interests.

The idea I'm trying to state here is this:

After 4th grade is passed, the child will then be given the option to choose from a number of subjects. After choosing, each class would present the minimal information needed to make a decision until all the information needed to do so is exhausted. The child can make a choice at any time and the moment he or she does so they will be no longer attend a multitude of classes but instead attend a special class designated to what the subject the child has chosen. As you can see, however, there are no grades involved and neither are there tests. The classes are about attaining knowledge to make a choice and not about memorizing a bunch of pages and then writing what you memorized down, forgetting everything until you need said information again.

 

[Julianking93]

Well, this is pretty much exactly what I do.

I didn't know there was a word for it.

But my parents let me study whatever the fuck I want when I want it and I seem to be turning out just fine.

But is it structured? Is it learning on a website/virtual school (for an example, Florida has FLVS, which, IMO, is great) or out of books, or is it learning what you want when you want how you want?

The two latter.

I study out of books when I want to. Not text books mind you, but regular books and I read what I want to when I want to.

I wouldn't say it's structured because I'm hardly ever told what to do past "you should read this book today" but it's not utter chaos like those biased idiots make it out to be on that news program. I apply myself into whatever it is I'm studying at the time and stick with it.

That's the thing though, you apply yourself to your studies. That's the problem raised, the fact that most people wouldn't.

This I understand, and I get that the reason people are up in arms over this is because a lot of teens don't do what they're supposed to, but not every teenager is like that.

I think if your child has a good set of morals, wants an education and can handle themselves, this would work (and I like to think that I'm proof it works) but when you have a kid who doesn't apply themselves, no schooling is going to get them straight. Not homeschooling, not unschooling, not even regular schooling.

From what I've seen on this site, you are a good example. I'd still prefer people did virtual schooling to any other, however.

Yaay! I like being a good example for something.

But I can agree with the virtual schooling thing, it's just that I despise the American school system to no end and I couldn't take it anymore. That's the reason I left.

I even tried homeschooling for a bit but the textbooks were awful. They just spouted constant lies about everything.

 

[51gunner]

These people are idiots. How the hell is an "unschooled" child going to manage to get into any university or other post-secondary education? I'm not saying post-secondary is the be all and end all of education, but by choosing to "unschool" you child, you're shutting that door on them. Hard.

 

[Berithil]

This is all fine and dandy for the kid until he/she grows up. Then the kid will end up working at Burger King for the rest of his/her life.
I'm homeschooled and I've had plenty of time to learn what general unschooling
would teach you. If it's only learning how to do the things described,then that would of been great 400 years, not today when you need a college degree to get a good carreer.

 

[JaredXE]

snip

Lets see, resorting to insults, way to back up your point, really shows your intelligence.

Lets see, yes I had a class that taught politics, it was in highschool, a place you are obviously unfamiliar with.

I will not disagree with you that the average citizen needs more than basic maths to live their life, but you must understand that a 4th grader is NINE. They can't spell all that well, and need constant practice in vocabulary and sentence structure as well as grammar.....things they get through continuing education.

Oh really, so you knew your country's entire history by the age of nine? What a smart boy you were. And did you know world history as well? You know, the history of other countries we tend to interact with in a GLOBAL community?

Also, FINISH THE GODDAMN QUOTE. I said that kids that young can make little choices, but to decide what to do the rest of their life before they have even hit puberty is retarded and makes me think YOU were in a special school. Yes, forceful education works. Ask your parents and your grandparents. Only doing the things you want to do leads to being a spoiled and entitled adult, a waste of a human, with nothing worthwhile to contribute.

The upside is that that attitude leads to them dying off because they didn't want to go to work and earn money to feed themselves.

 

[Acalla]

Wait a minute, are you saying that as a parent, I should let my 5th grader CHOOSE if they want to go to school or not?

No. I'm saying you should let your 5th grader CHOOSE what he wants to learn. If he does not want to learn about anything then he obviously has no interest in school and as such there's no use forcing him to go to school. If he doesn't care or does not like school then he will not learn anything.

Let me see if I understand what you are saying... Before there was public school (in the US), if a child excelled at something, say music, they would be sent to music school. There, they learned all the basic general knowledge, but with a focus on music. The same held true for math, English, etc. Is this what you are thinking? Moving to this type of system again? I mean, you don't mean that if a 5th grader decides they are done with school and want to go work at taco bell (illegal but for sake of argument), to let them do that?

And that they have learned all that they need in life by 4th grade.

No. I'm stating that the basic knowledge to be a successful human being is learned in the 1st to 4th grade. You learn basic maths which you will use the most and you learn to read, write and formulate sentences.

I would argue the successful part... but maybe at a later grade.

If my mom didn't force me to do things when I was a kid, I wouldn't be who I am today. As an example, I just wanted to play video games, she made me pick a sport.

So because she forced you to do something you did not enjoy that made her a good mother. Fine and dandy, but let's remember the fact that children aren't fucking animals.

Yah, I am saying it made her a good mother... and I didn't say I didn't enjoy the activities. I am saying she pushed me out of my comfort zone and I found out I liked to do something other then play video games and mess around with computers. That is what I am trying to say here. I didn't have the ability to really say I didn't like this or that without trying it out. She helped push me into things. If I didn't like track, I could have quit it, but I tried it first instead of crapping on the idea from the get go.

Found out I was pretty good at running. When I broke my ankle, she made me pick something else so I chose theater and still have friends to this day from it (17 years).

Insignificant. Friends can be made in any social environment.

Depends on the value of those friends. I understand you can make friends in any social environment but I couldn't make these friends in any other environment. But I concede to your point.

Good parents want their kids to have a better life and, statistically, getting an education is part of that goal.

That's partially correct. If the child doesn't want to become a lawyer even tho that's the better choice then you have no right to force him to do so. But do explain how learning biology, history, algebra, spatial geometry, chemistry, physics etc helps the child succeed in life? The fact of the matter still remains. Children learn the majority if skills needed to succeed in life during the first to 4th grade. Reading, writing, basic mathematics with everything else being just for "general knowledge".

I never would want my child to become a lawyer or a doctor if they did not want those things. But, likewise, I am not going to support them to becoming a bum (granted we don't have full control over that). I would argue that not forcing at least one class of chemistry, biology and physics could be a problem too. How will they know they don't like them if they don't try them?

And some of us actually use things like calculus and advanced English skills for our everyday jobs, and this wasn't taught to us by 4th grade.

If the child chooses to pursue a career which includes Calculus then the institution responsible with preparing said person for their chosen job has the responsability to teach the person calculus.

Is the current system flawed? Yah but I don't think it need to be thrown out the window. I would argue for more specialized classes at earlier ages. There is an experimental school here in Arizona that teaches high school kids that are interested in cars how to be mechanics, those that like cooking to be chefs, etc. I would love to see more of this.

I just don't think 5th grade is the time to decide these things. Maybe later, say 9th or 10th grade? I just think 5th grade is too young. But, going back to your original post, I really thought you meant to let a 5th grader walk away from education completely, if that is what they wanted.

Didn't mean for this to get this long. So, to each their own. All I know is that I've met a few too many people that dropped out of high school and now have 2 kids on a salary from a fast food place. Maybe if someone kicked their ass and made them stay in school, they would be a better place now.

And why has this happened? Because todays educational system is fucked up. The moment you enter school you have a set goal to achieve a good grade with the other option being considered a failure. There's a lot of useless information being teached to children in schools that will eventually end up not being used. NOT ONLY THAT, but the current educational system uses said useless information to grade children. What the current system does is separate children into groups depending on how much useless crap they decided to study. School is not longer a place where you genuinely learn, it's a place where your worth is decided based on how good you can memorize subjects that have a slim chance of ever being used again.

I will grant you some of this. Having a wife that is a high school English teacher, I know about the ins and outs of the system... Federal guidelines, red tape, and no money. It is a system that does need to be fixed. More focus on vocations and more focus on life activities. When I graduated many years ago, they never taught us how to balance a check book or how to manage credit. These are things that should be taught. How about teaching how to interview for a job? Unfortunately, the system is a large ship and will take a very long time to turn course. I do see as the older guard retires out of the system, the new guard is trying to change things.

Well, trying to get back on track to the OP, I don't think unschooling is the fix for this. Homeschooling (which is not an option for all people) might be better at giving a child the focus on things they want to learn while also learning the general knowledge stuff... or parents can be parents and supplement their child's public education with these other lessons. But learning geometry from knitting a quilt, sorry, I just don't see it.

 

[Dastardly]

All "unschooling" is, when you get right down to it, is parents doing the job they are SUPPOSED to be doing anyway IN ADDITION to what the kid is supposed to get at school.

If schools could spend 100% of the day on learning, instead of half of it being spent dealing with behavior problems because of absentee parenting, I imagine it would be very different. We could have more in the way of AUTHENTIC assignments, where students aren't just learning formulas/definitions/etc, but are USING them in real-life situations.

But the sad fact is that by the time a kid is 18, assuming 1 year of preschool and 13 years of public schooling, they have spent around 11% of their lives in school. Check that math. Only 11%. And that's just "at school," including lunch/bathroom/class changes. Each teacher gets a fraction of a percent.

The other 89% of the time, they're somewhere else, under someone else's supervision and influence. Yet schools are blamed for 100% of a kid's failure to learn a particular subject.

You try teaching a kid who keeps falling asleep in class because he eats a crap diet and stays up all night playing video games.

And next to him is a kid whose parents are never home, so he never has any rules or chores or responsibilities.

And beside him is a kid diagnosed ADHD by the third shrink they sent him to, and now the kid feels he has an excuse to misbehave and not do work... and you can't punish him for it, because it's a "disability."

And beside him is a kid whose parents can't read, and they work 3 jobs, and he has to wear the same shirt to school twice a week because he only has 4 shirts.

Good luck holding their attention while you're called out for a parent conference with one of the community's rich people... because his kid got a C on that science test (because he was too busy being "center of attention" to actually PAY attention), and that's obviously YOUR fault.

 

[GrinningManiac]

I learn tons of stuff from things not having to do with school. School is much more of a guaranteed certificate that you know something than the only way you can learn something. What I mean by that is that if you finish school, people who want to hire educated individuals will know you at least know something. If you don't go in school, they'll have no way of knowing your potential unless they test you extensively, something I don't think many really wants to bother themselves with. Therefore, unschooling is bad more because people won't take you seriously than because you'll turn stupid.

Unschooling isn't the worst, it just isn't very good by today's norms. Parenting at it's worst would probably be something like that family in USA teaching their children that being Gay means you'll burn in hell and all that stuff.

Well Said That Man (Sorry for quoting you like this, Hub, I know you hate it)

The reason we go to school is the same reason I take Piano Exams. If I told someone I could play piano well, they'd want proof (being the skeptical, demanding types they are). Whilst I could sit down and play 30 odd pieces to them, I could just as easily hand over a piece of paper signed by the President of the Board indicating that, yes, this boy can play the fething Piano

Now, with Piano, if someone dosen't believe I can play the piano and I can't proove it to them without my piece of paper, then that's an inconvinience. If, however, the subject in hand is my ability to understand concepts and work in a certain field rather than tinkling the ivories, my situation is suddenly a tad more severe

I'm completley happy to let unschoolers exist (assuming they don't get taken to court, which is likely) in the same way I'm happy to see little kids smoke and idiot chavs get into fights and drink themselves to death. Why? Because I know full well that my life will eventually be of a higher calibre than theirs ever will be, and, with respect to smokers and drinkers, one day they will likely be dead and I will not (assuming I do not get hit by an idiot drunk chav in a car, which is also likely)

 

[HT_Black]

Just because something is different doesn't mean it's bad. As long as you can instill your children with an academic drive equivalent to or greater than what they would feel in school, you can do whatever the hi-diddly-hell you feel like.

...But then again, the odds of that happening are extremely low.
Frankly, I have no idea what to think of this 'unschooling' thing.

And I took part in it.
Also, Kudos for creating the most discussion-worthy thread on the forum.

 

[Dastardly]

While it certainly doesn't substitute for a dedicated education, the ideas BEHIND "unschooling" have value. Students are engaging in activities that call on them to USE what they've learned. Good schools, of course, have been trying to do these things forever already--it's called "authentic assessment."

Think of it as "labs," to the classroom's "lectures."

Inauthentic assessment - I teach you the quadratic formula, and then I ask you to complete some problems using the quadratic formula. This is used for getting FAMILIAR with a concept.

Authentic assessment - I give you a word problem that outlines a situation that requires you to USE the quadratic formula to answer a true-to-life question. This is used for becoming FLUENT with a concept.

But, of course, schools have a hard time getting all of this done during the school day due to a bloated curriculum, and all the issues outlined in my earlier post ^ up there.

 

[yoyo13rom]

Unschooling in my perspective: bad.
What I think will become of unschooling: The world will just consider life is too hard, and that we should exploit our freedom to chose not to learn or to learn what we like(which is impossible if we don't try out nothing, considering we have no reason to in the first place).
I feel that unschooling is just awful.

Just because you don't see any practical use for the education in school, doesn't mean school is useless, or that you should be allowed not to learn anything. You don;t even know when you could be stranded on an island, and need to fix your injured limb, or survive. Or if you have the lucky misfortune to be stuck on a spaceship, and you need maths or quantum physics to stop a wormhole(yeah, I know the examples aren't that good).

To conclude this, I'm an obsessed teen, hungry for intelectual power, that sees learning as a must(at least all the stuff we learn in schools, for one's general knowledge)!

Side note: Oh I got a good example! Latin is a dead language, but what if you stumble across an ancient alien tomb and the only language the zombie mummy alien speaks is Latin(or Korean)?

 

[Erik C]

To be totally fair everyone... Idk about the UK or aussies, But in the USA a high school diploma is worth nothing. it litteraly gets you nothing but either...the advancement to college or a job at McDonalds. So there is validity but...if you start your kids of at this nonsense it will fail. But I think setting your kids up with homeschooling prior with good habits would go in the right direction.