Poll: Videogames and Women

[BloatedGuppy]

I wanted to hedge my bets and select "room for improvement", but it really is a travesty. And I'm a guy!

 

[Elvis Starburst]

I wish females gamers didn't get the shit that they do. I think it's unfair that they get messages like the FUoS posts, cause that's flat out unbelievable. But then again, I'm not surprised. The 360/PS3 online community is full of kids, pre-mature teenagers and fratboys who refer to their women as "their *****".

I think they all need to have a kick to the nuts and told "say that again and the other is heading right for your face". If I could teleport to every single gamertag/PSN account involved with this absolutely terrible attitude, I'd do exactly that. Teleport, give them a firm punch to the face, and make it known I'll come back if they do it again. Bastards the whole lots of them >.> This is why I don't play multiplayer, or care for consoles anymore. And I'm a guy

 

[CaptainKarma]

oh man this thread AGAIN...

Women can be smart, sexy, witty, badass, dangerous, heartwarming and pretty much whatever the creators of the game wanted them to be instead of shallow token notions of what other people think woman should be in games they aren't making.

So because I'm not making videogames I can't criticise videogames? How does that make sense?

 

[TheDooD]

oh man this thread AGAIN...

Women can be smart, sexy, witty, badass, dangerous, heartwarming and pretty much whatever the creators of the game wanted them to be instead of shallow token notions of what other people think woman should be in games they aren't making.

So because I'm not making videogames I can't criticise videogames? How does that make sense?

You're pretty much bitching about what somebody had in mind for their own character concepts is somehow wrong because it portrayed in a way you don't like. Girls can be whatever they want to be so with a female character concepts reflect that is somehow wrong. It's wrong for a girl to be diehard, devoted fan. Or loves to show off her body by wearing tight or revealing clothes. They can be shy and meek. Or prove that they're the baddest ************ in the room. It's a concept that reflects the randomness in real personality traits. Not everybody in the world is well rounded so why in the hell should video game characters. Overall I'm pretty much trying to say is if you don't like something alright yet sometimes it's just better to let some shit slide and enjoy the damn game.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

You're pretty much bitching about what somebody had in mind for their own character concepts is somehow wrong because it portrayed in a way you don't like. Girls can be whatever they want to be so with a female character concepts reflect that is somehow wrong. It's wrong for a girl to be diehard, devoted fan. Or loves to show off her body by wearing tight or revealing clothes. They can be shy and meek. Or prove that they're the baddest ************ in the room. It's a concept that reflects the randomness in real personality traits. Not everybody in the world is well rounded so why in the hell should video game characters. Overall I'm pretty much trying to say is if you don't like something alright yet sometimes it's just better to let some shit slide and enjoy the damn game.

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...

There is nothing wrong with critical analysis of a medium, attacking poor or shallow characterization, or calling out crass sexualization. The moment you present your art for public consumption, you invite criticism of that art.

Pretending that video game characterizations are just representing all the different colors of the rainbow of feminine personality traits is pretty ridiculous on the face, and you should probably stop trying. You can admit that games, as a medium, tend to have an extraordinarily juvenile attitude towards women and sexuality and STILL LIKE GAMES. Being honest about where our hobby falls down is the first step on the road to making it better.

 

[JSDodd]

I agree with you in general but i think mass effect was an awful example to use. All of the main female characters have plot arcs as long as their male counterparts, some even have longer ones.

 

[Creator002]

and banning women from Battlefeild 3 launch party? why the fuck did they do that?

Here's a quote:

"Nothing ruins a good LAN party like uncomfortable guests or lots of tension, both of which can result from mixing immature, misogynistic male-gamers with female counterparts. Though we?ve done our best to avoid these situations in years past, we?ve certainly had our share of problems. As a result, we no longer allow women to attend this event.?

No, really.

but....but....

BUT THATS BULLSHIT!!!!!!!

I just *gasp*..ok...ok calm down

you know what? they should have made it female only..yes, made it female only for this very reason and make that absolutly clear, that would have shown them ..

I was thinking the same thing when I read that quote. At least they recognised the immaturity of the attendees, but they shouldn't have rewarded them with the LAN party. It's almost like "you want to be immature and misogynistic? Fine. No women, but you can still have your party." isn't that the best of both worlds for a misogynist?

Back on topic, I don't think there's anything too wrong with how women are treated in games, it's the reflection of that into the real world. If people treat real women as sex objects, that's what's wrong.
I hope I don't come off as stupid or whatever, but if a 12-15 year old thinks women are sex objects and nothing more, it'll harm him (or maybe just turn against him) later in life. No woman (I hope) wants to be treated as a sex object, so how many women do you think he'll get lucky with without paying for it.
Sure, this may lead to rape, but you can't stop that from happening, but now we're heading into "games make rapists and murderers" territory. Actually, there's another point, if we accept that games alter perception of women, should we accept they alter our perception on the morality of murder and rape?

Ah... I think I missed the point of the whole topic. Maybe I should stop.

 

[TheDooD]

You're pretty much bitching about what somebody had in mind for their own character concepts is somehow wrong because it portrayed in a way you don't like. Girls can be whatever they want to be so with a female character concepts reflect that is somehow wrong. It's wrong for a girl to be diehard, devoted fan. Or loves to show off her body by wearing tight or revealing clothes. They can be shy and meek. Or prove that they're the baddest ************ in the room. It's a concept that reflects the randomness in real personality traits. Not everybody in the world is well rounded so why in the hell should video game characters. Overall I'm pretty much trying to say is if you don't like something alright yet sometimes it's just better to let some shit slide and enjoy the damn game.

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...

There is nothing wrong with critical analysis of a medium, attacking poor or shallow characterization, or calling out crass sexualization. The moment you present your art for public consumption, you invite criticism of that art.

Pretending that video game characterizations are just representing all the different colors of the rainbow of feminine personality traits is pretty ridiculous on the face, and you should probably stop trying. You can admit that games, as a medium, tend to have an extraordinarily juvenile attitude towards women and sexuality and STILL LIKE GAMES. Being honest about where our hobby falls down is the first step on the road to making it better.

I been knew its still juvenile as fuck when it comes to women, men, aliens, zombies, whatever. I knew this when I use to play Twisted Metal 3 and Duke Nukem Time to Kill with my friends in the 90's. I just deal with games I care for and really don't give a shit about those that I don't. I really don't care about if a character is being portrayed properly when it comes to "social norms" all I care for is does what the designers had in mind work for what they're trying to do with a narrative of their game, If it does more props to them.

 

[CaptainKarma]

-snip-

I been knew its still juvenile as fuck when it comes to women, men, aliens, zombies, whatever. I knew this when I use to play Twisted Metal 3 and Duke Nukem Time to Kill with my friends in the 90's. I just deal with games I care for and really don't give a shit about those that I don't. I really don't care about if a character is being portrayed properly when it comes to "social norms" all I care for is does what the designers had in mind work for what they're trying to do with a narrative of their game, If it does more props to them.

So your argument is basically "It doesn't affect me, therefore it is not an issue"?

Yes, women come in all different forms, and there's nothing wrong with any of them. But videogames only present one shallow, adolescent view of women as a pair of walking tits. This damages the image of the women, is artistically shallow, and puts a lot of women off playing games.

 

[Woodsey]

B) People who suffer inner turmoil about the way they look generally don't try and accent the way they look. I've met girls with self-esteem issues. In most cases, they try and dress less sexy, not more.

I can't remember exactly, but I'm pretty sure Miranda's issues were how she got her looks and with her father, not the looks themselves. And even if you don't think that's enough of a distinction, there are still people with body issues who obsess over looking as good as they can.

As for C), maybe she wears it because it helps her get her job done. Use what you've got.

(This is in relation to this specific instance, by the way, not my thoughts on the topic in general.)

 

[FalloutJack]

Ummm...how shall I put this?

Any person or persons found herein to resemble actual living or other fictional characters is purely coincidental.

That is, it's not REAL, so don't let it bug you.

 

[TheDooD]

-snip-

I been knew its still juvenile as fuck when it comes to women, men, aliens, zombies, whatever. I knew this when I use to play Twisted Metal 3 and Duke Nukem Time to Kill with my friends in the 90's. I just deal with games I care for and really don't give a shit about those that I don't. I really don't care about if a character is being portrayed properly when it comes to "social norms" all I care for is does what the designers had in mind work for what they're trying to do with a narrative of their game, If it does more props to them.

So your argument is basically "It doesn't affect me, therefore it is not an issue"?

Yes, women come in all different forms, and there's nothing wrong with any of them. But videogames only present one shallow, adolescent view of women as a pair of walking tits. This damages the image of the women, is artistically shallow, and puts a lot of women off playing games.

There's now something wrong with the pretty much worship of the female form when it comes to an artistic medium. If a woman is put off by that it's her not the artist. There's something called just enjoying something for what it is and not making it bigger then it needs to be. It's shallow yes but do we need to get torches and pitchforks every time a good looking female character is in a game hell no.

I'm not gonna stop somebody from doing what they want if it's not hurting me because I just don't like it. That's the problem is the overreaching, some people need to realize gaming just might not be for them. like some people don't need to drive, shop, drink, etc. Everything in the world can't fit the mold for everybody. Trying to make it such would make it boring.

 

[CaptainKarma]

-snip-.

There's now something wrong with the pretty much worship of the female form when it comes to an artistic medium. If a woman is put off by that it's her not the artist. There's something called just enjoying something for what it is and not making it bigger then it needs to be. It's shallow yes but do we need to get torches and pitchforks every time a good looking female character is in a game hell no.

I'm not gonna stop somebody from doing what they want if it's not hurting me because I just don't like it. That's the problem is the overreaching, some people need to realize gaming just might not be for them. like some people don't need to drive, shop, drink, etc. Everything in the world can't fit the mold for everybody. Trying to make it such would make it boring.

I was being facetious. I did not expect you to come back and literally say "I don't give a shit about things that do not effect me"

That is, it's not REAL, so don't let it bug you.

You too, I'm pulling you into this.

I don't care whether or not you personally can shrug of the ubiquitous sexism in the industry. It puts other people off, its misogynistic and should stop. This is not a case of "i disagree with your aesthetics" or "i'm not into that style of writing". It's something that is demeaning to 51% of the planet.

Even saying "well maybe gaming isn't for them" is absurd. So maybe NO women should play games? What the hell is wrong with you. Do you want gaming to be more of a teenage male wank-fantasy than it already is?

 

[Zaik]

Well...except for yet another "but men are drawn unrealistically, too [http://girl-wonder.org/girlsreadcomics/?p=4#13]!" some flippant dismisal [http://girl-wonder.org/girlsreadcomics/?p=4#17] as a "non-issue [http://derailingfordummies.com/#moreimportantly]," and the whole strawmanning of critique as "weeping [http://derailingfordummies.com/#overemotional]" bit, anyway.

"I don't like that argument so I'll pretend it doesn't exist".

Congrats, you're doing the exact same thing you're bitching about, without even making a separate sentence to do it in.

Now it's obvious that the entire complaint is founded in hypocricy to begin with. How's your smug sense of moral superiority going to save you now?

You're not the first person to use that logic before. That's why he/she was able to link to explanations of your derailing problems instead of just writing it out.

Well, they aren't the first person to ever use THAT logic before either. Do you have a point?

 

[TheDooD]

-snip-.

There's now something wrong with the pretty much worship of the female form when it comes to an artistic medium. If a woman is put off by that it's her not the artist. There's something called just enjoying something for what it is and not making it bigger then it needs to be. It's shallow yes but do we need to get torches and pitchforks every time a good looking female character is in a game hell no.

I'm not gonna stop somebody from doing what they want if it's not hurting me because I just don't like it. That's the problem is the overreaching, some people need to realize gaming just might not be for them. like some people don't need to drive, shop, drink, etc. Everything in the world can't fit the mold for everybody. Trying to make it such would make it boring.

I was being facetious. I did not expect you to come back and literally say "I don't give a shit about things that do not effect me"

That is, it's not REAL, so don't let it bug you.

You too, I'm pulling you into this.

I don't care whether or not you personally can shrug of the ubiquitous sexism in the industry. It puts other people off, its misogynistic and should stop. This is not a case of "i disagree with your aesthetics" or "i'm not into that style of writing". It's something that is demeaning to 51% of the planet.

Even saying "well maybe gaming isn't for them" is absurd. So maybe NO women should play games? What the hell is wrong with you. Do you want gaming to be more of a teenage male wank-fantasy than it already is?

You know a part of that 51% is perfectly fine with how it is now and they don't really care what about them? Plus do you really think girls are gonna suddenly buy games that are targeting them let alone companies are gonna back the production of them. They have to make money and until there's a visual rep of real female gamers. not the the special few that appear on TV that's when they'll get taken seriously.

Enjoy the games for what they are games. Don't make it into something beyond what it needs to be. All characters of both sexes don't need to be down to earth, well rounded, emotionally balanced, bi sexual, average bodied, lab experiments just so nobody will feel offended and or left out.

 

[CaptainKarma]

Enjoy the games for what they are games. Don't make it into something beyond what it needs to be. All characters of both sexes don't need to be down to earth, well rounded, emotionally balanced, bi sexual, average bodied, lab experiments just so nobody will feel offended and or left out.

This is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is they should be more than gratuitous eyecandy.

 

[Aurora Firestorm]

snip

I guess this is where I'm confused. Ivy is an obviously sexual costume to me. Maybe it's because I'm a straight female and pay less attention (except I'm also an artist and really look at costumes...), but I don't see her as obvious eye candy with the exception of the cleavage-baring. Honestly, her outfit is something I'd wear for the hell of it, not because I give two craps about whether guys are ogling me, but because I like form-fitting clothes, if it were appropriate to wear random sci-fi costumes.

I'll agree that the cleavage gap in her clothes is entirely unnecessary, but hell, I see people walking around outside wearing skimpier outfits than that bodysuit. I don't see people dressed like Ivy.

I'm aware that people can be sexy without having tons of skin showing, but you have to draw a line at what's blatant sexism somewhere. Sci-fi has had a long history of funky futuristic sleek clothes, and this usually involves them being not baggy -- i.e. tight. Either they're uniforms, or they're tight. I saw Miranda more as an attempt to make humans Apple-esque and sleek, rather than LOOK AT HER ASS LOOK AT IT.

 

[Aurora Firestorm]

(I am failing the "don't accidentally doublepost" game today.)

 

[AdmiralMemo]

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/true-female-characters is basically my opinion.