Poll: Videogames and Women

[TheDooD]

Enjoy the games for what they are games. Don't make it into something beyond what it needs to be. All characters of both sexes don't need to be down to earth, well rounded, emotionally balanced, bi sexual, average bodied, lab experiments just so nobody will feel offended and or left out.

This is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is they should be more than gratuitous eyecandy.

Look at Jeffers comment

Thing is though, you could swing that logic the other way. Ivy is under-dressed to the point of ridiculousness, but as a fighter in-game, she wields a chain sword that has one of the greatest reaches of any SC character, and can chain together combos that will absolutely decimate any opponent she lands them on.

Does the fact that she's a genuinely awesome fighter negate the fact that she's also one of the most downright disturbing examples of fan-service in recent times? No. Does the fact that Miranda can be a cold-blooded killer negate the fact her outfit is so tight its imprinted against her arse crack? No. You can't have an oversexualised character, then try to write it off by saying "Wait! Look at how awesome they are at fighting!" despite what the Bayonetta fans may say. Sexism doesn't work like that.

An office manager could praise a female member of staff for the exemplary work she's put in, but if he also makes a joke about her breast size and pats her bum, that's still sexism. Trying to counter-balance sexualized design with lethally capable combat skills does not negate the fact that the design is still overly sexual, in the case of both Ivy and Miranda.

Even when characters have something to attempt to balance out the design. If they're still sexy they're gonna say it's STILL wrong. So you want boring or do you want flash. Do you want what's pretty much a male character with tits and ass. Or do you want a female char that KNOWS what she is and isn't afraid to use what she has 100% to get the job done. If a girl is hot, smart and tougher then most guys then what the fuck is wrong. Hell most people bitching would have flaming pitchforks if instead of strong women they'll start making meek ones that cover up and needs their hands held all the time. Wouldn't that be a great game to play.

 

[CaptainKarma]

Enjoy the games for what they are games. Don't make it into something beyond what it needs to be. All characters of both sexes don't need to be down to earth, well rounded, emotionally balanced, bi sexual, average bodied, lab experiments just so nobody will feel offended and or left out.

This is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is they should be more than gratuitous eyecandy.

Look at Jeffers comment

Thing is though, you could swing that logic the other way. Ivy is under-dressed to the point of ridiculousness, but as a fighter in-game, she wields a chain sword that has one of the greatest reaches of any SC character, and can chain together combos that will absolutely decimate any opponent she lands them on.

Does the fact that she's a genuinely awesome fighter negate the fact that she's also one of the most downright disturbing examples of fan-service in recent times? No. Does the fact that Miranda can be a cold-blooded killer negate the fact her outfit is so tight its imprinted against her arse crack? No. You can't have an oversexualised character, then try to write it off by saying "Wait! Look at how awesome they are at fighting!" despite what the Bayonetta fans may say. Sexism doesn't work like that.

An office manager could praise a female member of staff for the exemplary work she's put in, but if he also makes a joke about her breast size and pats her bum, that's still sexism. Trying to counter-balance sexualized design with lethally capable combat skills does not negate the fact that the design is still overly sexual, in the case of both Ivy and Miranda.

Even when characters have something to attempt to balance out the design. If they're still sexy they're gonna say it's STILL wrong. So you want boring or do you want flash. Do you want what's pretty much a male character with tits and ass. Or do you want a female char that KNOWS what she is and isn't afraid to use what she has 100% to get the job done. If a girl is hot, smart and tougher then most guys then what the fuck is wrong. Hell most people bitching would have flaming pitchforks if instead of strong women they'll start making meek ones that cover up and needs their hands held all the time. Wouldn't that be a great game to play.

Because the visuals of the character reduce her to something to be ogled at. The entire thing is built around the male gaze. This is bad regardless of what else the character has going on. Never have I said women cant be sexualised. I'm against the puerile objectification. Objectification of women = bad. How is this so hard for you to grasp?

 

[TheDooD]

Because the visuals of the character reduce her to something to be ogled at. The entire thing is built around the male gaze. This is bad regardless of what else the character has going on. Never have I said women cant be sexualised. I'm against the puerile objectification. Objectification of women = bad. How is this so hard for you to grasp?

because it's not bad.

Women ogled men, men ogled women and we can be happy with that. It's a damn white knights that you that want characters to be fucking BORING. So what if men look at it you realize some women like to look at it too and some want to be look at like that as well. You realize visuals are important to people right. They want something too look good and then anything pass that is additional substance. If you're willing to deny others to make you happy it makes you a prick. You can hate it all you want but you can't deny others what makes them happy. Hell when I see a good looking girl on the street I objectify them and base them only on their looks because that's ALL I'm working with. What don't you understand that what you want is NEVER gonna happen. There's gonna worse male and female roles, yet there also gonna be better. So all you have to do is just enjoy the games as they come and don't make a big deal out of it.

 

[ablac]

Mass effect was kind of a shame in that regard because it was just so blatant and unsublte and that point betrayed what othherwise was a good strong character. Titilation is fine but when you use it excessively to make up for other inadequeces then theres a problem.

 

[VladG]

Room for improvement, certainly.

But first thing, the Mass Effect example is a poor one since Miranda (the character in that screenshot) is supposed to be physically perfect (genetically engineered to that purpose) and be, among other things, very attractive. It is part of her character and her design to have and use any/every advantage, as she herself remarks upon. I consider this a mature and reasonable attitude, no more unusual than making her very intelligent and very fit.

If her attractiveness would have been the only thing to be purposefully altered, then it would have been a problem

As for the more apt examples, you must understand that games are a visual medium and in the same way you appreciate beautiful environments, you appreciate good looking characters. I'm certain that female gamers prefer a good looking avatar over an average looking one, same as males.

It's true that some games rely too much on sexy female character to draw in more sales, and that has more to do with the consumers than the developers in my opinion. Game studios DO actually want to earn money to, in the most charitable light, continue to produce games, and sadly a nice pair of breasts on the box has a better chance of garnering interest in their product.

Games are still a new medium, less "mature" than prose or film, so plenty of developers find it easier to resort to ... reliable ways of attracting attention.

I doubt most overly-sexual games are made so because the devs actually objectify women, but more because the audience objectifies women. It also has to do with having a much less mature audience than film or prose, since most gamers are young people. I expect this will change a lot over the next years since the early generation gamers are becoming older, thus bringing a new demographic to gaming.

 

[TheDooD]

Thing is though, you could swing that logic the other way. Ivy is under-dressed to the point of ridiculousness, but as a fighter in-game, she wields a chain sword that has one of the greatest reaches of any SC character, and can chain together combos that will absolutely decimate any opponent she lands them on.

Does the fact that she's a genuinely awesome fighter negate the fact that she's also one of the most downright disturbing examples of fan-service in recent times? No. Does the fact that Miranda can be a cold-blooded killer negate the fact her outfit is so tight its imprinted against her arse crack? No. You can't have an oversexualised character, then try to write it off by saying "Wait! Look at how awesome they are at fighting!" despite what the Bayonetta fans may say. Sexism doesn't work like that.

An office manager could praise a female member of staff for the exemplary work she's put in, but if he also makes a joke about her breast size and pats her bum, that's still sexism. Trying to counter-balance sexualized design with lethally capable combat skills does not negate the fact that the design is still overly sexual, in the case of both Ivy and Miranda.

Even when characters have something to attempt to balance out the design. If they're still sexy they're gonna say it's STILL wrong. So you want boring or do you want flash. Do you want what's pretty much a male character with tits and ass. Or do you want a female char that KNOWS what she is and isn't afraid to use what she has 100% to get the job done. If a girl is hot, smart and tougher then most guys then what the fuck is wrong. Hell most people bitching would have flaming pitchforks if instead of strong women they'll start making meek ones that cover up and needs their hands held all the time. Wouldn't that be a great game to play.

Cheers for trying to make me look like some sort of relic from the 1950s. Oh those poor women, how will they ever cope with being independent, responsible human beings? Oh, if only they could stay in my kitchen, where it's safe and secure, and they can make me sammiches...

My argument was not against women being both sexy and confident. My argument was against women being overly sexualised, while having some other token example of male wishful thinking chucked in to try and deflect attention.

Ivy is a character who spends her life fighting other people. She fights with a sword, and in the context of the game universe, risks her life each and every time she enters a new fight with an opponent. With that in mind, it would be reasonable to expect that she would be well-prepared for such conflicts, and would wear suitable attire with which to better defend her innards.

Instead, we get this:

Spoiler

According to Namco, a woman who spends her life in deadly combat wears suspenders, a thong, and a bit of string to hold her 32GGs together. And that's it. Not only that, she has somehow managed to spend her entire life fighting in this attire without accumulating a single scratch or scar on her body.

Anyone who goes into battle wearing a thong and a shoelace is going to get stabbed, no matter how good they are. Ivy's costume isn't an issue of her not being meek enough, it is down to the simple fact that it is an unbelievable outfit given the context, and serves to provide titillation and fanservice to the player over actual practicality as a defensive outfit. Which leads me to Mass Effect:

These are 2 of the female leads from Mass Effect 2:

Spoiler

One of them wears a bleached version of what is essentially the Catwoman outfit. The other wears a pair of dungaree bracers. There is nothing inherently bad in this itself. However, the game tries to tell me that these two characters are also combat ready allies who can wade into battle in these outfits and kick monumental ass.

This is the sort of thing women wear when on the battlefield;

Spoiler

Notice how these women have elected to wear unflattering but practical attire for the purposes of combat? That's because not getting shot is of far more importance in a combat situation than showing your fellow squaddie your ass.

Developers dressing women sexily isn't a bad thing. Developers designing scantily clad women, then putting them in the middle of a battle and trying to convince me they won't get stabbed/shot to pieces is not. It shows that they value sex appeal over the actual context of whatever situation they put these characters in.

It's a game don't bring real life logic into it.

Ivy is immortal and is pretty much a mage so she can heal any and all scars. She really doesn't have to worry about dying.

If you're trying to pull REALISM on Mass Effect 2 then Shep should have died in the prologue. They have the tech to revive Shep from the condition he was in, scars and bullets wounds ain't shit. So you can pretty much wear whatever as long as body is still intact they can bring you back if they wanted too.

 

[Alyssa the gamer girl]

i absolutely hate the way women are treated, ive been kicked from public servers numerous times just because i was a woman. usualy they automatacly think im a 12 year old kid because of my high pitched voice, then i have to try and convince them im a chick which usualy dosen't work... sigh.

 

[TheDooD]

because it's not bad.

Women ogled men, men ogled women and we can be happy with that. It's a damn white knights that you that want characters to be fucking BORING. So what if men look at it you realize some women like to look at it too and some want to be look at like that as well. You realize visuals are important to people right. They want something too look good and then anything pass that is additional substance. If you're willing to deny others to make you happy it makes you a prick. You can hate it all you want but you can't deny others what makes them happy. Hell when I see a good looking girl on the street I objectify them and base them only on their looks because that's ALL I'm working with. What don't you understand that what you want is NEVER gonna happen. There's gonna worse male and female roles, yet there also gonna be better. So all you have to do is just enjoy the games as they come and don't make a big deal out of it.

Spoiler

Developers have already shown that they can create strong, relatable female characters who can be attractive (a seeming must in any work of fiction) without being objectified or sexualized.

Look at the pic of Alyx, and point out to me one part of her that has been sexualized in order to improve her appeal to the male demographic. Answer? There aren't any. Yet any chart that lists best female VG characters will have her riding high near the top.

My goodness! It's almost as if gamers can appreciate female characters that aren't dressed like fantasy hookers. Stop the presses!

If Valve can show that women don't need to objectified in games to still be successful characters, why shouldn't other developers try and match that, and raise the bar for female presence in games generally?

Then it won't be unique, it'll be normal and guess what people are gonna want the flashy designs again. Let the designers do what they want it's their stories. If you want to change something do it yourself. Fuck these days Alyx is a cop-out yeah she's a great character yet how much she's used as a token character of how female characters in games SHOULD be. you'll realize she's pretty runs the course of the fangirl right? No female character is perfect and developers should create characters they want not what some sad white knights want.

 

[Hugga_Bear]

Well, look at the men.

It's only sexist if it runs one way so for now I'm with 'room for improvement' but by no means is it terrible. The males are almost always stunning or at the very least physically impressive specimens with jaws that could shatter concrete and pecs that would pass for breasts at a glance.
Good or bad we build these characters to look beautiful because we see them all the time. When you're given the choice between spending time with pretty and funny and ugly and funny you know who gets the vote? Pretty. Why? Cos we're built that way. It's pretty simple stuff, we like good looks, we like attractive and so games give us beautiful men and beautiful women to ogle.

Unfortunately they take the women too far. It's one thing to be a looker, it's another to be dressed like a slut. By all means make your characters beautiful but please make them a little restrained too, ya know? Even if you're going for sexy I personally find those who are suggestive and clever more interesting than those who go "LOOK BOOBIES BOUNCE!!!" *jump jump jump*.

So on the one hand, be careful pushing it too far, having attractive people is an entirely different fight (and one which is fairly well addressed in larger RPG's at least). It's when we have obviously poorly represented females. That said I'd take sexualised and competent over pathetic, stereotyped and wearing a modest dress. I'd rather not have such a stupid choice mind.

 

[CaptainKarma]

-snip-

It's a game don't bring real life logic into it.

Ivy is immortal and is pretty much a mage so she can heal any and all scars. She really doesn't have to worry about dying.

If you're trying to pull REALISM on Mass Effect 2 then Shep should have died in the prologue. They have the tech to revive Shep from the condition he was in, scars and bullets wounds ain't shit. So you can pretty much wear whatever as long as body is still intact they can bring you back if they wanted too.[/quote]

This is all handwavey justification for putting women in ridiculous outfits.

Of course, as you're denying the very existence of objectification there's pretty much no way we can convince you that there's a problem here.

 

[TheDooD]

snip

Because they're apart of a game they are already an object, so your protecting the rights of those that are already objects to begin with. Objectification in the real world goes both ways, there's nothing wrong with it. It's apart of attraction you can't escape it and you sure as hell will never get rid of it.

 

[CaptainKarma]

-snip-

It's a game don't bring real life logic into it.

Ivy is immortal and is pretty much a mage so she can heal any and all scars. She really doesn't have to worry about dying.

If you're trying to pull REALISM on Mass Effect 2 then Shep should have died in the prologue. They have the tech to revive Shep from the condition he was in, scars and bullets wounds ain't shit. So you can pretty much wear whatever as long as body is still intact they can bring you back if they wanted too.

This is all handwavey justification for putting women in ridiculous outfits.

Of course, as you're denying the very existence of objectification there's pretty much no way we can convince you that there's a problem here.

Because they're apart of a game they are an object, so your protecting the rights of those that are already objects to begin with. Objectification in the real world goes both ways, there's nothing wrong with it. It's apart of attraction you can't escape it and you sure as hell will never get rid of it.[/quote]

Are you deliberately misrepresenting my argument?

I dont give a shit about Ivy's rights, she's non-existent. The problem is that the game is presenting an unrealistic and sexist view of what women should look like. She does not exist as a character, she exists as wank-fodder. This is off-putting, misogynistic and only serves to further ghettoise gaming as a hobby.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

Well, they aren't the first person to ever use THAT logic before either. Do you have a point?

Do you want to know what the difference is?

The material behind the links you didn't follow? Those are actual arguments.

Your derails, by contrast, are not. In fact, they are knee-jerk attempts to avoid any argument altogether by pretending that there is no issue at all.

In short: your privilege is showing.

Are you deliberately misrepresenting my argument?

I dont give a shit about Ivy's rights, she's non-existent. The problem is that the game is presenting an unrealistic and sexist view of what women should look like. She does not exist as a character, she exists as wank-fodder. This is off-putting, misogynistic and only serves to further ghettoise gaming as a hobby.

I can just about guarantee that you're going to have to explain that there's a difference between admiration and objectification, and why the latter is insulting.

 

[TheDooD]

snip

dang ninja'ed, I gotta think up something better now.

 

[TheDooD]

-snip-

It's a game don't bring real life logic into it.

Ivy is immortal and is pretty much a mage so she can heal any and all scars. She really doesn't have to worry about dying.

If you're trying to pull REALISM on Mass Effect 2 then Shep should have died in the prologue. They have the tech to revive Shep from the condition he was in, scars and bullets wounds ain't shit. So you can pretty much wear whatever as long as body is still intact they can bring you back if they wanted too.

This is all handwavey justification for putting women in ridiculous outfits.

Of course, as you're denying the very existence of objectification there's pretty much no way we can convince you that there's a problem here.

Because they're apart of a game they are an object, so your protecting the rights of those that are already objects to begin with. Objectification in the real world goes both ways, there's nothing wrong with it. It's apart of attraction you can't escape it and you sure as hell will never get rid of it.

Are you deliberately misrepresenting my argument?

I dont give a shit about Ivy's rights, she's non-existent. The problem is that the game is presenting an unrealistic and sexist view of what women should look like. She does not exist as a character, she exists as wank-fodder. This is off-putting, misogynistic and only serves to further ghettoise gaming as a hobby.[/quote]

You DON'T give a shit about her rights then why in the hell are you so hard up on what she wears. You know you just completely fucked over your whole argument. Ivy is a character and she dresses sexy. She's only wank fodder if you want to fap to her. You can fap to any girl you find attractive that's a cop out. Gaming is a hobby, like reading, movies, plays, etc. All those have some sleazy works and some people like it. So who are you to say they can't enjoy it.

 

[Da Orky Man]

Snip

Out of those games, I've only played Mass Effect. However, i'd like to point something out:

The equivalent of Miranda, but for the ladies.

A nerdy female character who you never see the face nor body of.

So, Mass Effect 2 has eye-candy for the girls, as well as having a shy, nerdy character as the most popular romance choice. I'd say the gaming industry isn't doing too bad.

 

[CaptainKarma]

-snip-

It's a game don't bring real life logic into it.

Ivy is immortal and is pretty much a mage so she can heal any and all scars. She really doesn't have to worry about dying.

If you're trying to pull REALISM on Mass Effect 2 then Shep should have died in the prologue. They have the tech to revive Shep from the condition he was in, scars and bullets wounds ain't shit. So you can pretty much wear whatever as long as body is still intact they can bring you back if they wanted too.

This is all handwavey justification for putting women in ridiculous outfits.

Of course, as you're denying the very existence of objectification there's pretty much no way we can convince you that there's a problem here.

Because they're apart of a game they are an object, so your protecting the rights of those that are already objects to begin with. Objectification in the real world goes both ways, there's nothing wrong with it. It's apart of attraction you can't escape it and you sure as hell will never get rid of it.

Are you deliberately misrepresenting my argument?

I dont give a shit about Ivy's rights, she's non-existent. The problem is that the game is presenting an unrealistic and sexist view of what women should look like. She does not exist as a character, she exists as wank-fodder. This is off-putting, misogynistic and only serves to further ghettoise gaming as a hobby.

You DON'T give a shit about her rights then why in the hell are you so hard up on what she wears. You know you just completely fucked over your whole argument. Ivy is a character and she dresses sexy. She's only wank fodder if you want to fap to her. You can fap to any girl you find attractive that's a cop out. Gaming is a hobby, like reading, movies, plays, etc. All those have some sleazy works and some people like it. So who are you to say they can't enjoy it.[/quote]

Wait wait....how have I fucked over my argument? Tell me what you think my problem is, cos it's sure as hell not what I think it is.