Poll: What do you think about circumcision?

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Kahunaburger

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Well, it makes sense from a hygiene perspective - no foreskin = lower transmission of AIDS, for instance. It also means lower risk of infection, and at the time when people started circumcising babies infections were srs bsns.

On the other hand, cutting off a piece of a baby's dick based on slightly better hygiene doesn't seem worth it to me.

But I strongly suspect that lots of people who are virulently anti-circumcision are actually just anti-Semitic. It's very reminiscent of those soup kitchen-style European charities that only serve pork products.
 

BiscuitTrouser

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Sober Thal said:
BiscuitTrouser said:
Sober Thal said:
Just curious, are all the anti-circumcision people here, anti-abortion too?
Fraid not, for the excact reason im pro choice. A zygote isnt a baby. Logical fallacy there my friend :p
Logical fallacy?

If I were trying to tell you something, trying to convince you of some idea, and I said 'if you are anti-circumcision then you must be anti-abortion', that would be a logical fallacy. I'm asking, not telling.

Seriously, what is with the attitude in this thread?
No no no, that wasnt intended in an offencive way, thus the ":p"

The arguement was more that "any arguement that revolves arounds the rights of a zygote wont apply at all to that of a baby thus any comparison at all is impossible"

Sorry ive kind of picked up the attitude of this thread >.>

Ive had this question thrown at me before here, and im sorry i was curt with you. Fair point though.


Kahunaburger said:
Well, it makes sense from a hygiene perspective - no foreskin = lower transmission of AIDS, for instance. It also means lower risk of infection, and at the time when people started circumcising babies infections were srs bsns.

On the other hand, cutting off a piece of a baby's dick based on slightly better hygiene doesn't seem worth it to me.

But I strongly suspect that lots of people who are virulently anti-circumcision are actually just anti-Semitic. It's very reminiscent of those soup kitchen-style European charities that only serve pork products.
Dude what the hell? I doubt very much anyone here says it on an anti semetic reason. I think it because of the many studies shown here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_analysis_of_circumcision#Costs_and_benefits

Most show negative effects. Thus i think its a medically unneccessary proceadure and thus wrong. Also maybe... just maybe... most of the people here dont like the idea of your dick being cut without your consent? In a pretty much permenant fashion? That seems more likely to me than random hatred for a race.

I dont imagine anyone being against circumcision for anti semetic reasons. If it was a religious resaon at all it would be "i dont wanna be marked with a religious symbol before i can choose my religion" similar to a cross being engraved on your penis.
 

Kahunaburger

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BiscuitTrouser said:
Kahunaburger said:
Well, it makes sense from a hygiene perspective - no foreskin = lower transmission of AIDS, for instance. It also means lower risk of infection, and at the time when people started circumcising babies infections were srs bsns.

On the other hand, cutting off a piece of a baby's dick based on slightly better hygiene doesn't seem worth it to me.

But I strongly suspect that lots of people who are virulently anti-circumcision are actually just anti-Semitic. It's very reminiscent of those soup kitchen-style European charities that only serve pork products.
Dude what the hell? I doubt very much anyone here says it on an anti semetic reason. I think it because of the many studies shown here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_analysis_of_circumcision#Costs_and_benefits

Most show negative effects. Thus i think its a medically unneccessary proceadure and thus wrong. Also maybe... just maybe... most of the people here dont like the idea of your dick being cut without your consent? In a pretty much permenant fashion? That seems more likely to me than random hatred for a race.

I dont imagine anyone being against circumcision for anti semetic reasons. If it was a religious resaon at all it would be "i dont wanna be marked with a religious symbol before i can choose my religion" similar to a cross being engraved on your penis.
Not on the Escapist. In general. Call me cynical, but I don't see a non-hate related reason for as many people as there are to be as vociferously against it as they are.
 

Kilyle

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Ultratwinkie said:
Kilyle said:
It bugs me to see people get so up in arms against circumcision and then see a culture that thinks nothing of little kids getting their ears mutilated by their moms. (Always makes me think of those poor ear-snipped puppies in Black Beauty.)
against circumcision? Who cares what society wants? You're born that way, and taking a stand shows strength of character.

50 years ago...
I suppose I emphasized that wrong.

Why is it that we have a society that can be so blase about this kind of thing to begin with?

Why is it okay to let a mom pretty up her 6-month-old daughter by stabbing holes in her ears?

Why is it okay to let young children "make the decision" to cause their body permanent harm just so their friends will think they're cooler? The kid doesn't know what's going on.

Why is it okay to give children Cochlear implants when the track record is spotty and in some cases it actually causes lifelong discomfort, so much so that the Deaf community takes a stand against them? Can't the kid live for twenty years the way he was born before deciding whether or not to chance the possible side effects of an elective surgery?

These things aren't necessary for life or health. The choices should be made when you're old enough to make them.
 

imnot

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How is this thread still going!? Its basically been 17 pages of
'its good'
'No its bad stfu'
'No its good I have studys that prove it'
'no its bad I have studies too!'
'Your rubbish'
'you have a smelly butt'


Uh. no offence or anything guys :3
 

BiscuitTrouser

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ravensheart18 said:
They are saying what I've said throught this thread. It isn't something that should be done for prophylactic (preventitive) reasons, but only something based on parents balancing what s best for their children based on personal believes, ethnic, cultural, and religious practices. By no means are they saying don't do it, they are saying don't just blindy do it to everyone.
Now this is my issue, the artical actually cited many studies and if you actually read every one and took note of the effects you would see that, well youve said it, it should NOT* be done for preventative reasons. But many on this thread cite "make future health better" as the reason, in fact the majority of those for it. I dont think its right for a cultural, religious, or ethnic practice to be forced on a child so.... crudely. And permenantly. I think thats wrong. At this point i reason, if its not for a medical reason its effectively cosmetic. And i feel cosmetic surgery on children is wrong. And in fact should be regulated.

Of course i think in the event of a medical situation in which it fixes a problem currently happening it should be done. I see circumcision very similar to tattooing/carving a cross onto a childs genitals. I feel thats barbaric. I feel everyone should have the choice in what their body represents and looks like, but performing any surgery for such... volatile reasons (eg culture and religion are NOT set in stone from birth) is a sure way to disaster when a few children reject it.

I think a better way (which by the way i WILL put all my power behind when i get my biomed science degree which im going into next year) is to try and convince religions to make it a rite of passage at 18 where the child is fully concious of what will happen to them and can weigh, personally, all risks and benifits.

*TERRIBLE ERROR! Sorry!
 

Sewora

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The modern world doesn't amputate healhty bodyparts from infants. Because we're developed, intelligent and has had thousands of years of experience.

USA is getting close to 300 years, they are the new kid on the block and they don't have the value of experience telling them how wrong it is to mutilate children. We've been through worse, so we've learned to treat people with respect, even infants.
 

SciMal

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Sewora said:
You wouldn't even see the difference between a circumsized and uncircumsized erect penis.
The foreskin is short, so it's automatically retracted when erect.
I registered for the forums so I could reply here. Nothing...NOTHING gets my goat going like misinformation and outright lies.

The foreskin is short, but the penis also isn't erect all the time. At other times it's very noticeable, and I've heard both sides from women; so this is a non-issue.

And it's all based on where you're from. Women in my country think circumsized penises are weird and ugly. No one even knows how to give a circumsized guy a handjob because it's awkward.
Now that's just stupid. A handjob is performed pretty much the same way regardless of the foreskin's intactness. It'd be like saying, "I don't know how to use soap because it's not in bar form." You still rub-a-dub-dub until the job's done either way.

Oh, and those supposed studies of yours doesn't exist. Because it's the opposite. Again, let me say the same thing others have said.

Uncircumsized penis has 24000 nerve endings.
Circumsized penis has 4000 nerve endings.
In comparison, the clitoris has 8000 nerve endings.
Holy fracknuts, this stuff again... Okay, every single inch of your skin is absolutely and irrefutably suffused with nerve endings. Mechanoreceptors, thermoreceptors, free nerve endings (pain receptors), corpuscles, and the list continues.

More nerve endings =/= more pleasure.

In particular, you're probably talking about early findings from Taylor (1996) and Sorrells (2006), the latter of which concluded:

"The glans of the circumcised penis is less sensitive to fine touch than the glans of the uncircumcised penis. The transitional region from the external to the internal prepuce is the most sensitive region of the uncircumcised penis and more sensitive than the most sensitive region of the circumcised penis. Circumcision ablates the most sensitive parts of the penis."

What Sorrells did not conclude (but discussed at-length in the study) was sexual satisfaction and circumcision.

It is scientifically proven in every single possible way that uncircumsized men feel alot more sexual sensation.
I (Sorrels 2006) can't (Bleustein 2003) believe (Bleustein 2005) you (Payne 2007) say (Collins 2002) so (Senkul 2004) much (Kigozi 2007) bullshite (Senol 2008).

Especially when the American Academy of Family Physicians disagrees with you (2007).

The foreskin is the most sensitive sexual organ on the human body.
Do I even have to point out that your lips and hands are, BY FAR, more sensitive than any other organ in your body; conveniently represented by the Cortical Homonculus drawings of the somatotopic mapping of the Primary motor cortex? If you don't believe me, feel free to borrow my Neuroscience book ("Neuroscience", Bears, Connors, Paradiso - Third Edition).

It is by itself enough to make a man orgasm. It isn't just a useless piece of skin, it's a very important part of the male body.[/quote[

I also won't delve into how male orgasm can occur for different reasons, and you don't even need to stimulate the penis itself for it to occur. Hell, you don't even have to be awake...

Oddly enough, male sexual arousal and orgasm are more complicated than comedians would have you believe.

In comparison it would be like removing the clitoris on a woman. You'd still be able to have sex, but you wouldn't enjoy clitoral stimulation.
NO. NO. NO. Not only are you being completely unfair to the thousands of women who are forced to undergo female circumcision, you're wrong in one very IMPORTANT way:

The proper comparison would be the clitoral hood, which is the analogous developmental organ for women. The clitoris is the female analog of the male glans (the head of the penis). Removing the clitoris is "Female Circumcision" and is extremely detrimental/harmful to the enjoyment of sex; the same would happen if you cut the entire head of the penis off, and not just the foreskin.



FINALLY: As a circumcised male, I can tell you this - If I had not been circumcised right after my birth, I would never choose to undergo it. You heal less efficiently the older you get, and more importantly; I don't remember a thing. I'm pretty sure I'd remember having a chunk of my willy sliced off at 18 if my parents hadn't chosen for me.

My personal opinion is that the whole argument is ridiculous.

First, if you're NOT a guy - you need to find a chair and sit this argument out. You don't have ANY idea how sex feels to a guy, you don't have ANY idea what we are/aren't missing out on. You can sympathize with a side and show support, but you don't EXPERIENCE it. It's the equivalent of trying to describe menstrual cramps or pregnancy to a guy; you have to feel it to know it.

Second; it's not THAT important. There have been dozens of studies conducted. The majority find no difference in sexual satisfaction, no difference in arousal, and no difference in "uptime." The chance that something major (permanent mutilation, death, etc.) goes wrong during circumcision operations is VERY slim (<1% - other figures you'll find on the web which state it as being between 2% - 10% include things like 'profuse bleeding' as a side-effect).

Third; There are MINOR medical reasons for either argument. Circumcision favors slightly better hygiene and has a lower rate of STD contraction (which doesn't matter much anyways, as you should be using protection regardless). An intact foreskin offers slightly fewer issues that come about as a result of constant diaper/clothes rubbing while a toddler, and slightly delays vaginal dryness during intercourse.

If you happen to bathe more than once a week and use lube while having sex, you've pretty much negated any advantages either has.

I say, let the father of the boy choose. The father will (ostensibly) be the male role-model for the young man, and should utilize his own experiences and research to determine the outcome. Since I hope I've made it clear that any perceived advantages OR disadvantages are pretty much bunk in a modern society that has access to soap and Astroglide, I would be more concerned about the child's psychological development and any disjunction between his anatomy and his male role model's anatomy than anything else. It can be very disconcerting to grow up different than your father. Before others start to chime in, I do believe the father should include the desires of the mother, but like I said before; it's not really a "women's issue."
 

Kahunaburger

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Ultratwinkie said:
The rate of AIDS in uncircumcised countries are far lower than circumcised ones.
You seem to be confusing a cause with an effect, here. The rate of people who die from cancer is higher in people who go through chemo than people who do not go through chemo.
 

mrblakemiller

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The-Epicly-Named-Man said:
Well it's obviously the individual's choice. I don't really think there's way to explain that in a way someone on this thread already has, so I'll leave this here instead:
I will add this: I hope Hitchens has never laughed at a joke predicated on murder or rape, or hell, any death for that matter. If he has, he's an enormous hypocrite. There's no logic behind saying that what a person finds funny explains anything about their moral character. I personally have the ability to divest myself from a joke, to realize that the people getting killed or mutilated or anything else are not real people. In fact, I'll bet you anything Hitchens has laughed at one of the many "crucifixion of Jesus" jokes out there. I can't (or at least don't care enough to try to) prove it, but I think it makes great food for thought.
 

phatdog45

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I dont have a good answer. I guess it's something a man should be able to choose, but at the same time I'm damn happy to be circumsized and there's no way I would have had it done today if it hadn't already been done. fuck no i aint gonna let someone take a scaple to my dick! but since it already happened, I'm cool
 

schiz0phren1c

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wow this again,
I will say what I usually do(minus the rant)
hell no! parents should not do this,
as many have said it should be left up to somebody when they are old enough to decide,
as someone else pointed out if it was in your religion to snip off the end of your baby's nose,part of their ear or the tip of their finger the doctor would call the god damn cops!

Their are NO benefits to circumcision unless you suffer from a condition(I forget the name) where your foreskin wont pull back properly,and that usually is not discovered til puberty.
the hygiene/bacteria excuse is pure bullshit,your foreskin helps protect your penis not the other way round,
also chopping off a big lump of your penis removes a shitload of sensitive nerves...obviously,
also the whole thing is being perpetuated ONLY to put money in unscrupulous doctor's pockets AND so cosmetic company's have a nice supply of baby foreskin to put in skin creams.nice.

Did I say minus the rant? oops.

P.S.
this form of Genital Mutilation was almost entirely thought up by "Doctor" John Harvey Kellogg...the same guy who came up with Cornflakes(think of that the next time you have a spoonful of baby fores,I mean Kelloggs corflakes up to your lips)he was a raving lunatic puritan who forcefully recommended chopping kids penises up as a prevention of masturbation which he is noted as claiming of masturbation-related deaths(lol)"such a victim literally dies by his own hand" and that masturbation caused every known disease.
Pro Circumcision people really need to know,THAT is the kind of deranged lunatic you are basing a lifelong,irreversible decision for your hours old child upon.
anyway enough,apologies for wall of text.
I just feel very strongly against this disgusting practice.
 

Kahunaburger

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Ultratwinkie said:
Kahunaburger said:
Ultratwinkie said:
The rate of AIDS in uncircumcised countries are far lower than circumcised ones.
You seem to be confusing a cause with an effect, here. The rate of people who die from cancer is higher in people who go through chemo than people who do not go through chemo.
That is a bad comparison. That assumes that Circumcision actually helps against AIDs. If that was true, it would be true for all cases. Instead, uncircumcised countries do not have those problems. The studies that try to state AIDs is stopped by circumcision would also state that AIDS should be rampant everywhere. Instead, it is not.

A surgery doesn't stop STDs, education does. Its this reason the US, and the third world have such high rates. Education is bogged down by superstition, and religious/cultural control.
I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to argue. Would you mind re-stating your case, and walking me through your thought process?
 

BiscuitTrouser

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SciMal said:
I say, let the father of the boy choose. The father will (ostensibly) be the male role-model for the young man, and should utilize his own experiences and research to determine the outcome. Since I hope I've made it clear that any perceived advantages OR disadvantages are pretty much bunk in a modern society that has access to soap and Astroglide, I would be more concerned about the child's psychological development and any disjunction between his anatomy and his male role model's anatomy than anything else. It can be very disconcerting to grow up different than your father. Before others start to chime in, I do believe the father should include the desires of the mother, but like I said before; it's not really a "women's issue."
Can i just say. Everything you said before this. Was. Beautiful. Thank you.

We can agree it is a medically unneccessary proceadure yes? That the risks either way are pretty much negligable?

At this point this paragraph is where the conflict arises, the idea that a father can make such a choice for his son without his input or consent, and then he is absically forced to live with it forever.

I see two routes.

Cut but dont wanna - Screwed

Uncut but wanna? - you can do something.

Regardless if the differences in the proceadure on different age groups one looks more appealing to me than another. Id rather my child had the choice in his life to make a decision rather than having daddy autonomously decide for him. It all comes down to the rights of the child.

http://shs.westport.k12.ct.us/forensics/11-forensic_anthropology/forensic_skeletons/peruvian_female_%28skull_binding_100bc%29-www.boneclones.com.JPG

In terms of "emulating daddy" id like to point to this monstrosity. I reckon this here is screwed in the head. And of course it is far far far worse than circumcision. However the same reasons justify it. I dont think it does any damage persay, or has any positive effects, but it can only by justified by preference... the parents preference. And is basically irreversable. I dont think the same arguements hold true for either case.

I also think the exact same arguements would stand for example, tattooing a childs penis matt black. I dont feel this would be appropriate either so i figure we should put aside cultural bias for the sake of rights and leave these things to choice.

Watch teh above video.
 

SciMal

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Ultratwinkie said:
That is a bad comparison. That assumes that Circumcision actually helps against AIDs. If that was true, it would be true for all cases. Instead, uncircumcised countries do not have those problems. The studies that try to state AIDs is stopped by circumcision would also state that AIDS should be rampant everywhere. Instead, it is not.

A surgery doesn't stop STDs, education does. Its this reason the US, and the third world have such high rates. Education is bogged down by superstition, and religious/cultural control.
Foreskin area correlates to contraction of HIV:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19770623

The less foreskin you have, the less risk you have of picking up some STDs ASSUMING YOU ARE NOT USING ANY PROTECTION AT ALL.

HIV/AIDS rates fluctuate due to sexual education and access to medications, as you said. The areas of the world more prone to using condoms (pretty much the only method proven to prevent transmission of STDs) and have access to current treatments will have fewer cases of AIDS and much better prognosis for patients who have developed AIDS.

I hope this clears up this argument.