forgive me if it wasnt 100% clear that question was rhetorical...
ok, so you don't like the fact shepard has to work with cerberus...I don't know what to say about that, I explained why shepard might have to work with cerberus and I stand by that. I don't think its "rail-roading" anymore than shepard not being able to turn into a psycho terrorist in ME1,
Then here are some questions, see if this makes sense to you:
1) Is Shepard trying to save the Galaxy? Yes/No
2) Does Paragon Shepard have some kind of (meat headed) integrity in the first game? Yes/No
3) Is Renegade Shepard simply an evil psychopath for the lulz or are they a principled operative with few scruples? Lulz/Principled
If you answered 2 with No, then go back and play the game again. If you answered 3 with Lulz, you're wrong, please replay the game and see if you can process the information in front of you.
The problem is, neither character, nor any point on the spectrum in between these points is inclined to sign on with a terrorist organization.
Vault101 said:
mabye shepard was more inclined to work for cerberus because as extreme as the illusive man was..he belived in the reapers, and seemed willing to give shepard whatever he/she needed, collectors is one thing, but I doubt the council was willing to listen about anything concerning reapers
Maybe, just maybe, Shepard was "forced" to work with Cerberus because the player doesn't get an alternate option. Just a thought. Speculating on something in universe that is absent from the text of the game itself is irrelevant and distracting.
Vault101 said:
while I think killing shepard was a bit much (there were better ways to get him/her out of the action for a while) I don't think it completly "made death meaningless" shepard coming back from the dead was due to a very lucky and specific series of events (and a fuck-ton of money/rescources) you smply couldnt do that to every person who dies in the suicide mission or in combat...even if you could find their body and it was salvagable
also I don't know if thease so called "leaks" are for the extended cut or whatever but please keep spoilers in mind,
No, they're for Mass Shift, and Terminator (the working title for the next DLC). Enjoy.
Vault101 said:
[quote/]And the relevance to your own daydreaming to what pops up in the actual text of the games? Oh, yes, none at all. Please, continue to pretend it's relevant, and I'll pretend to actually care about how you would have improved this pile of shit.
It was just speculation, I don't know how things would have turned out had shepard not died, it if shepard didn't work for cerberus...theres no need to be like that[/quote]
And this is your problem, truly your problem. You aren't looking at the games. I mean, really, you're not. You're making excuses for them. You're saying "what if", but you're not looking at the works themselves, you're reinventing them in your head into something better.
The fact of the matter is, yes, I've played through every game multiple times (not counting the mobile games), I have a working knowledge of most of the non-game content, which is an indictment of shitty writing for another day. Short answer, you're not going to tell me something about the setting I don't already know.
I'm telling you what the problems with the setting is, and you're having to go, "but in my dreams it's amazing". Tough shit, we're not in your head, we're dealing with the games as they exist.
Vault101 said:
[quote/]No, the main issue with the Giant Space Terminator Baby is that it is stupid. Surprise only gets you so far. If they'd been turning the colonists into a new strand of collector, that would have been a surprise, suitably horrifying, and in the tone for the game. That they had to go back and retcon the reapers into cybernetic organisms instead of "inorganic" was a mistake, compounded by the sheer stupidity of fighting something that looks that damn stupid.
Im not entirly sure what "in-organic" is but I thourght reapers were always some "organic-synthetic" hybrid [/quote]
Okay, new vocab word: go look up "inorganic".
And while we're on the subject Sovereign flat out states he is not a cybernetic organism, he repeatedly uses the term synthetic, as does the rest of the setting, for that matter. The reapers were retconned into being organic after the original game, and it flat out contradicts numerous statements made in the original game.
Vault101 said:
[quote/] Yes, oddly enough I do understand some Greek, and do know what the term means. I even know how to pronounce it, "DAI-us", not "duce". In this case the problem "the machine god on a string solves" is not the characters' but the writers'. In point of fact, the term is certainly applicable simply because the image in question is far too damn close to the original application of the term.
did I accidently type it as "duce"? did I in anyway indicate that I didn't know how to pronounce it? because hey! I knew how to pronounce it too! arnt we clever? [/quote]I've seen no evidence to support that theory yet.
Vault101 said:
[quote/] No, you're thinking ME3, go back and think about ME2, when it hits, you'll shit bricks... though, I'm not holding out a lot of hope on that front.
sorry, I have no Idea what youre talking about, youre going to have to tell me[/quote]If you're clever, think about it a bit longer and harder, something should break. Hopefully not your brain, but something will.
Well, they've said they'll make it worse... Honestly, between ME3 and TOR, I'm not sure how much gas is left in the old gal. ME3 lost them a lot of their standard bearers and TOR seems to have lost a lot of money, if the free weekends and their investor report are any indication.
EDIT: Come to think of it, the double XP weekends and free multiplayer DLC for ME3 aren't exactly good signs either.
3) Is Renegade Shepard simply an evil psychopath for the lulz or are they a principled operative with few scruples? Lulz/Principled
If you answered 2 with No, then go back and play the game again. If you answered 3 with Lulz, you're wrong, please replay the game and see if you can process the information in front of you.
The problem is, neither character, nor any point on the spectrum in between these points is inclined to sign on with a terrorist organization.
I havnt actually played renegade shepard so I don't know details..I [i/]think[/i] the Idea was to be (like you said) a "get it done at any costs" type charachter
however I think that kind of fell flat, from what I hear renegade shepard just comes across as a jerkass, youd think that at least a few things would work out for the better if you chose "renegade" but often it doesnt ...everything turns out better with Paragon, much like alot of other games that try and give you "good/evil" the evil option is often the most stupid
like I said, for whatever reason in the story they wanted shepard to go with cerberus,and ONLY as long as the arrangment was beneficial..the only thing lost is shepards reputation...its not like shepard was going to turn around and bomb a colony because the illusive man said so
also I dont know but can't renegade say some vaugly "anti-alien" things at some points?
[quote/]Maybe, just maybe, Shepard was "forced" to work with Cerberus because the player doesn't get an alternate option. Just a thought. Speculating on something in universe that is absent from the text of the game itself is irrelevant and distracting [/quote] of coarse the player didnt get an alternitive option, ME isnt the type of game that gives you a multitude of options like Fallout NV...your arguang weather or not it was retarted for shepard to have to work for cerberus in the first place...
[quote/]I've seen no evidence to support that theory yet. [/quote]
edivence of what? evidence that I already knew how to pronounce it? its pronounciation was irrelevent, yet you felt the need to point it out to me
[quote/]If you're clever, think about it a bit longer and harder, something should break. Hopefully not your brain, but something will [/quote]
unless its what I editied into my post (the original cut ending involving dark matter) then no..I don't know
Here's my candidate for an epilogue to Mass Effect 3. I think it fits the story about as well as the original ending, but it does kind of rely on you having the Rachni as an asset:
Rachni Engineer 1: Did you see that light in the sky?
Rachni Engineer 2: I did. Wasn't that the Victory Fireworks device we installed on the Crucible?
Rachni Engineer 1: The one we installed as a joke? No one was supposed to activate that.
Rachni Engineer 2: Someone did.
Rachni Engineer 1: Apparently. I thought the Pshycoadaptive VI was supposed to warn against that sort of thing.
Rachni Engineer 2: It is. It takes a form familiar to the user and tells him to just use voice commands to activate the Catalyst. After that it... oh wait.
Rachni Engineer 1: What is it?
Rachni Engineer 2: This is embarassing.
Rachni Engineer 1: Come on, tell me.
Rachni Engineer 2: Remember when we were trying to understand the human concept of irony on the extranet?
Rachni Engineer 1: I do. I'm not sure that even humans understand it though.
Rachni Engineer 2: Well I think they use it for humor, so I tried adding it to the VI's behavior pattern to enhance the joke.
Rachni Engineer 1: So the VI tells the user to puposefully activate the Victory Fireworks device?
Rachni Engineer 2: Yes.
Rachni Engineer 1: Maybe the human didn't understand it was a joke.
Rachni Engineer 2: Impossible. I even made the VI sing a song of laughter after each response.
Rachni Engineer 1: Can human ears even hear our songs?
Rachni Engineer 2: You know, I never even considered that.
Rachni Engineer 1: So is the human dead?
Rachni Engineer 2: Probably. All of the Victory Fireworks panels were designed to be lethal.
While I appreciate the gesture, I don't think this'll "set things right".
The current ME3 ending is a big pile of solid waste excrement, and no amount of "extra cutscenes" will fix that. While I appreciate the gesture, I feel that the ending is just so badly written that only a complete reqrite would do the trilogy justice.
That said, every developer has the right to make a bad game (or screw up part of a very good game). But then, the ME3 ending is also very badly made. The presentation feels rushed, incomplete, lazy. If the Extended Cut can fix the latter part, they just screwed up. I don't like it, but it happens.
So yeah, I'm kinda looking forward to it, and it'll probably get me from "gravely disappointed" to "still unsatisfied". But I doubt I'll be giving standing ovations.
No, they aren't inclined to side with one, but circumstances simply made it the best way to go towards their goal. Losing the ship and any other resources that the Illusive Man had when no one else would be likely to take the Collectors quite as seriously as he was wouldn't be very helpful, to say the least.
Except, as we know from the second game, the collectors were being taken very seriously by some people in the Alliance. They just didn't have enough information yet to go after them.
Mortai Gravesend said:
Especially when the attacks on the human colonies seemed to be happening at a decent pace. The Council would likely not be interested.
No, The Council doesn't give a shit, either before or after. Though, if this was justification for tossing in with terrorists, Shepard should have been signing on with Timmy way back in the first game. When he actually had no standing with the Council, the Alliance, and lacked any resources, and had only personal exposure to Saren and his master plan.
Mortai Gravesend said:
They didn't care much about what happened to Eden Prime. So providing the level of resources needed would be unlikely. Alliance? Shepard lacks special authority with them, and no doubt they'd wouldn't be ready to immediately throw Shepard back into the fight after supposedly dying and being resurrected by a terrorist organization.
The problem is of course, that the Alliance already was investigating the colony attacks. If I recall correctly, it's even hinted that Cerberus has actually undermined the Alliance investigation at previous sites.
Additionally, Shepard does have special standing in the Alliance, even before the events of the first game. Remember, Shepard was an N7 operative before the first game began. It doesn't lend them special autonomy, but that autonomy isn't needed to carry out investigations.
Mortai Gravesend said:
Your complaint is that it doesn't fit Shepard's personality to work with them, yes? She provided an explanation for how it fits. If all you can do is repeat your idea that it is simply forced(which duh the story is trying to go along those lines) well that's not much of an argument for how it fails to fit.
The player is forced to side with Cerberus through the events of ME2, even though, and I mean this, even though there is literally no narrative reason Shepard couldn't ditch Cerberus and make nice to the Alliance or Council again, more likely the Council, the first chance they get.
The best I can give you on that is that it's plausible Shepard would take the Normandy 2 and book. There isn't even, really, a time constraint issue, as the set time frame for ME2 covers an entire year, (with some of the DLC scattered over an additional year beyond that). By the time you finish Lair of the Shadowbroker (canonically) it's been between one and a half to two years since Shepard woke up in the tutorial. Not exactly the definition of, "I can't turn myself in because they'd lock me up, and I need to save the world right now."
Mortai Gravesend said:
Looking over the whole conversation, following that particular point, you've really given no real indication what you're talking about.
No, I've made no effort to communicate it, partially because Vault is annoying me.
Mortai Gravesend said:
So far the clue is that it is a part where the science is bad and it is a plot point somewhere in the series. You can just say what it is instead of not saying it for the purposes of ego masturbation.
It's not masturbatory, to be sure. Vault is evoking some really... pronounced fanwank logic, and wrapping it in an air of superiority, which is, as I said, annoying me.
3) Is Renegade Shepard simply an evil psychopath for the lulz or are they a principled operative with few scruples? Lulz/Principled
If you answered 2 with No, then go back and play the game again. If you answered 3 with Lulz, you're wrong, please replay the game and see if you can process the information in front of you.
The problem is, neither character, nor any point on the spectrum in between these points is inclined to sign on with a terrorist organization.
I havnt actually played renegade shepard so I don't know details..I [i/]think[/i] the Idea was to be (like you said) a "get it done at any costs" type charachter
however I think that kind of fell flat, from what I hear renegade shepard just comes across as a jerkass, youd think that at least a few things would work out for the better if you chose "renegade" but often it doesnt ...everything turns out better with Paragon, much like alot of other games that try and give you "good/evil" the evil option is often the most stupid
like I said, for whatever reason in the story they wanted shepard to go with cerberus,and ONLY as long as the arrangment was beneficial..the only thing lost is shepards reputation...its not like shepard was going to turn around and bomb a colony because the illusive man said so
also I dont know but can't renegade say some vaugly "anti-alien" things at some points?
Renegade can, at random iterations spout off some bits of xenophobia in the first game. Going back to, their writing sucks, part of the problem with Renegade Shepard is the character waffles. At varying times, Renegade Shepard in ME1 is: Jack Bauer in Space, a member of Nightwatch (from B5, think Nazi secret police), a psychotic trolling Jackass, someone who follows military protocol, and on one or two occasions purple Hawke. There is, with very few exceptions, no warning as to which character one will get at any given moment. Renegade responses can provoke anything from a stern dressing down to a summary execution with little to no clue on the dialog wheel which action will result.
Vault101 said:
[quote/]Maybe, just maybe, Shepard was "forced" to work with Cerberus because the player doesn't get an alternate option. Just a thought. Speculating on something in universe that is absent from the text of the game itself is irrelevant and distracting
of coarse the player didnt get an alternitive option, ME isnt the type of game that gives you a multitude of options like Fallout NV...your arguang weather or not it was retarted for shepard to have to work for cerberus in the first place...[/quote]
No, I'm arguing whether or not it is in character for Shepard to work with Cerberus. Note what you just said: Mass Effect isn't the type of game that gives you a multitude of options, like New Vegas? You're right.
But that cuts both ways, because at the same time, we really do not control who Shepard is, we can point them along several paths, but the character already exists. Working with Cerberus isn't retarded, it is however egregiously out of character. Something that isn't an issue when, for example, the Courier sigs on with The Legion.
Vault101 said:
[quote/]I've seen no evidence to support that theory yet.
edivence of what? evidence that I already knew how to pronounce it? its pronounciation was irrelevent, yet you felt the need to point it out to me[/quote]Evidence of clever, m'boy. Evidence of clever.
Vault101 said:
[quote/]If you're clever, think about it a bit longer and harder, something should break. Hopefully not your brain, but something will
unless its what I editied into my post (the original cut ending involving dark matter) then no..I don't know
I'm a dumbass, please enlighten me[/quote]Why did the collectors target humans?
The second game goes off on this idea that humans are special unique snowflakes. That, what makes us unique in the galaxy is our diversity...
Okay, that much is fine. Well, to a point. It is very difficult to fully articulate the complexities of an entire multicultural interstellar civilization in easy bite sized chunks that a consumer can understand and digest. It's part of why science fiction as a whole gravitates towards creating one note civilizations.
Examples: Klingons are all defined by their adherence to a Bushido code of honor, or by their refusal to accept it. The Minbari are defined by their cast structure and rigid society. Wookies are defined by their willingness to rip your arms out of your sockets, and a strange obsession with tree houses.
Ironically, Mass Effect, in parts, does a better job than most, breaking up the asari a bit. Meanwhile the turians, krogan, quarians, vorcha, and salarians tend to slip right back into form, but there is that.
On the other hand, if you talk about Chinese, European, African, the consumer immediately knows what you're talking about. You can easily have humans representing multiple ethnic or cultural traditions, and you never need to worry about the player getting confused as to what makes this character different from that one, or what humans are, on the grand scale of things. It's a familiar framework.
The problem is what they ascribe that diversity to, in Mass Effect...
you and me both
[quote/] Vault is evoking some really... pronounced fanwank logic, and wrapping it in an air of superiority, which is, as I said, annoying me.[/quote]
wha....WHAT?
oh...ok then
I'll try and argue the main point, but for a second I want to point somthing out
now you must have serious misinterpreted my "air of superiority" seriously I have no Idea where that came from
now forgive me If Im misenterpreting you, but you have been condecending and obtuse this enitre time. You can;t jsut say "somthing sucks" and expect that to be explanation enough, you have to explain [i/]why[/i]
and you failed to do that first time around, in fact you pulled a "danm fanboys!" thing even before you ever bothered to explain why, I don't care how right or wrong or how much of a retarded fan-boy/girl you think I am, if youre not willing to explain your point then your just wasting both our time (you know..as far as internet arguing goes)
and air of superiority?
[spoiler/]
Starke said:
Vault101 said:
Starke said:
Okay, here's some meat for thought, when you played Mass Effect 2, why didn't you tell the Vermire survivor you weren't working for Cerberus? For that matter, why are you working for Cerberus? You can swing by the council, and say "Hi." Why didn't you, while you were there, say "fuck Cerberus, I want to work for you guys again"?
shepard had the illusives mans backing (money rescources, people) weather that counts as "working for" or not is up to how you see it.What WAS clear was that shepard had connections to cerberus, he/she couln't have just outright denied that to the virmire survivor, doing that would have confirmed what ashley/Kaiden were rambling on about
shepard actually did pretty much say that it was like he/she had "joined" cerberus out of belivng in their "cause" it was out of nessecity, and that Kaiden/ash should know that Shepard would never join a terrorist group without and damn good reason...and even they would never belive their bullshit
Right, so we're going to have to take a step back now. Go look up the word "rhetoric", it's your vocabulary word of the day. Then look up the phrase "rhetorical question".
You've done that? No? Then do it, I'll wait.
...
...
Back? Okay, so, what was the original question I asked? Oh, right, why can't you sign back on with the council after coming back from Cerberus filling you with half a Terminator? Because shitty writing and a plot that is so glued to the rails it doesn't move the entire game. [/spoiler]
please tell me how the flying fuck I was suposed to interperet that as anything OTHER than some "pretty obvious questions" regarding plot/charachters? (which I answered best I could based on the what I knew)
rhetorical or not it didnt explain your point, you just somhow expected me to be able to understand what you were geting at..which only would have happened if I shared the same veiwpoint
[spoiler/] [quote/] you're clever, think about it a bit longer and harder, something should break. Hopefully not your brain, but something will.
[quote/]And the relevance to your own daydreaming to what pops up in the actual text of the games? Oh, yes, none at all. Please, continue to pretend it's relevant, and I'll pretend to actually care about how you would have improved this pile of shit. [/quote]
[quote/]Yes, oddly enough I do understand some Greek, and do know what the term means. I even know how to pronounce it, "DAI-us", not "duce". [/quote] [/spoiler]
now tell me who as the air of superiority
my patience with this whole thing is growing thin, if youre unwilling to actually explain youre points, and I mean actually EXPLAIN rather than give obtuse hints and clues because obviously everyone thinks the same as you do then I'm done here
I'll try and argue the main point, but for a second I want to point somthing out
now you must have serious misinterpreted my "air of superiority" seriously I have no Idea where that came from
now forgive me If Im misenterpreting you, but you have been condecending and obtuse this enitre time. You can;t jsut say "somthing sucks" and expect that to be explanation enough, you have to explain [i/]why[/i]
The word you're looking for is "condescending", not "condecending". For that matter, "entire" not "enitre" and "misinterpreting" not "mesenterpreting". Also there's an "e" in "something".
If you'd like to adopt an air of superiority, it would help if you spellchecked your posts, even a little. Now anyone can make a typo, a little transposition or missed letter, but your posts have been filled with shoddy spelling.
And, yes, I'm having a little argument with my spellchecker at the moment, as to if "spellchecked" is a legitimate compound word. Which is nothing in comparison to the sloppy English you've been exhibiting.
If you'd like to convey a detailed intellectual debate, it would help you enormously to take the six seconds to find out, "goddamn, I should spellcheck this shit before I turn it loose."
Vault101 said:
and you failed to do that first time around, in fact you pulled a "danm fanboys!" thing even before you ever bothered to explain why, I don't care how right or wrong or how much of a retarded fan-boy/girl you think I am, if youre not willing to explain your point then your just wasting both our time (you know..as far as internet arguing goes)
No, the "damn fanboys thing" had to do with that entire bout of trying to spoon feed the plot of ME2 back to me in the assumption that it was somehow explain why Shepard was egregiously out of character.
Vault101 said:
and air of superiority?
Starke said:
Vault101 said:
Starke said:
Okay, here's some meat for thought, when you played Mass Effect 2, why didn't you tell the Vermire survivor you weren't working for Cerberus? For that matter, why are you working for Cerberus? You can swing by the council, and say "Hi." Why didn't you, while you were there, say "fuck Cerberus, I want to work for you guys again"?
shepard had the illusives mans backing (money rescources, people) weather that counts as "working for" or not is up to how you see it.What WAS clear was that shepard had connections to cerberus, he/she couln't have just outright denied that to the virmire survivor, doing that would have confirmed what ashley/Kaiden were rambling on about
shepard actually did pretty much say that it was like he/she had "joined" cerberus out of belivng in their "cause" it was out of nessecity, and that Kaiden/ash should know that Shepard would never join a terrorist group without and damn good reason...and even they would never belive their bullshit
Right, so we're going to have to take a step back now. Go look up the word "rhetoric", it's your vocabulary word of the day. Then look up the phrase "rhetorical question".
You've done that? No? Then do it, I'll wait.
...
...
Back? Okay, so, what was the original question I asked? Oh, right, why can't you sign back on with the council after coming back from Cerberus filling you with half a Terminator? Because shitty writing and a plot that is so glued to the rails it doesn't move the entire game.
please tell me how the flying fuck I was suposed to interperet that as anything OTHER than some "pretty obvious questions" regarding plot/charachters? (which I answered best I could based on the what I knew)
rhetorical or not it didnt explain your point, you just somhow expected me to be able to understand what you were geting at..which only would have happened if I shared the same veiwpoint
Well, screwing up the spoiler tags is definitely winning you points in this discussion.
But, if you don't understand, ask. Answering the wrong question only makes you look like a biased zealot to the cause. It undermines whatever you hoped you could say, and makes you come across as... shall we say, less than articulate.
Vault101 said:
[spoiler/] [quote/] you're clever, think about it a bit longer and harder, something should break. Hopefully not your brain, but something will.
[quote/]And the relevance to your own daydreaming to what pops up in the actual text of the games? Oh, yes, none at all. Please, continue to pretend it's relevant, and I'll pretend to actually care about how you would have improved this pile of shit. [/quote]
[quote/]Yes, oddly enough I do understand some Greek, and do know what the term means. I even know how to pronounce it, "DAI-us", not "duce". [/quote] [/spoiler]
now tell me who as the air of superiority [/quote]
Well, given that you felt the need to explain exactly what Deus Ex Machina is, on the assumption that I did not... Yeah, that would be you.
Vault101 said:
my patience with this whole thing is growing thin, if youre unwilling to actually explain youre points, and I mean actually EXPLAIN rather than give obtuse hints and clues because obviously everyone thinks the same as you do then I'm done here
If you'd like to adopt an air of superiority, it would help if you spellchecked your posts, even a little. Now anyone can make a typo, a little transposition or missed letter, but your posts have been filled with shoddy spelling.
but I'm NOT adpoting an air of superiority, thats simply how your reading the things I say
I'd say the same about you that is unless I'm reading you wrong, but never mind.
[quote/]No, the "damn fanboys thing" had to do with that entire bout of trying to spoon feed the plot of ME2 back to me in the assumption that it was somehow explain why Shepard was egregiously out of character. [/quote]
actually I was refering to the very first part of this argument, it started out
you: I think the writing is bad
me: I don't think it is
You: yeah it is...
me: no I really don't think so
[quote/]Well, screwing up the spoiler tags is definitely winning you points in this discussion. [/quote]
oh dear lord! I made a mistake with spoiler tags! obviously everything I say is wrong because only retarded fanboys would ever have the audacity to make a mistake with spoiler tags...
again I really feel like your nitpicking/making up stupid shit to try prove I'm some kind of idiot
my original point still stands....if you wanted to say "shepard working with cerberus is completley out of charachter and a result of bad writing for x reasons" you should have said that
instead you just asked a bunch of random questions, somwhow expecting me to "get" what you ment
[quote/]But, if you don't understand, ask. Answering the wrong question only makes you look like a biased zealot to the cause. It undermines whatever you hoped you could say, and makes you come across as... shall we say, less than articulate [/quote]
what?.....so all those times I asked what the fuck you were talking about in regards to the science/plot thing (as far as I understand now, somthing to do with diversity) and all you gave me was cryptic hints?.....what was that?
you think me answering those questions made me look like a "zealous fan" but your under the opinion that shepard working for cerberus was was retardedly out of characher...I am of the oposite opinion for those reasons
[quote/]Well, given that you felt the need to explain exactly what Deus Ex Machina is, on the assumption that I did not... Yeah, that would be you. [/quote]
I thourght it came across in my post that I wasnt 100% sure myself (obviously not), you aparently corrected that for me....however pointing out its pronounciation definetly seemed unessicary....but I guess it really doesnt matter how we are interpreting each others posts
[quote/]I'll get back to it in a bit, right now I've got slightly more important things to deal with. [/quote]
yes, like arguing over who has the air of supriority or spoiler/ tag mistakes
No, they aren't inclined to side with one, but circumstances simply made it the best way to go towards their goal. Losing the ship and any other resources that the Illusive Man had when no one else would be likely to take the Collectors quite as seriously as he was wouldn't be very helpful, to say the least.
Except, as we know from the second game, the collectors were being taken very seriously by some people in the Alliance. They just didn't have enough information yet to go after them.
Didn't seem like it was as seriously as the Illusive Man was taking it. And note that the resources the Illusive Man had included the information that the Alliance lacked. It would be kind of hard to cut him out of it. And he'd still be missing the new Normandy because until EDI was unshackled after the attack on the Normandy I do believe she was still reporting to the Illusive Man. Oh and there's EDI down too.
Timmy actually leads to a rather annoying Paradox, and unfortunately this involves late game ME3 spoilers, sorry.
TIM claims to have access to information the Alliance lacks on the collector attacks. He then chooses to withhold the information from the Alliance, and pursues it on his own.
Now, this raises a question, is the lack of Alliance involvement because TIM is keeping information from them?
We know they immediately send the Vermire survivor on recon the instant they have any information. And we know that Timmy leaked that to them. That suggests a pretty substantial commitment, in the absence of intelligence.
Beyond that, and this is mostly a quick aside, Cerberus' strongest assets on the ship are (reasonably) Miranda and EDI. Miranda's loyalty not withstanding, she doesn't have the capacity to go toe to toe with multiple Specres, or probably even just Shepard, to say nothing of an Alliance N7 team, or company of Alliance Marines. EDI, if we're talking about at the beginning of the game, is still quite shackled, and would be completely unable to put up a fight. She could protest, but that would only work up to the point that said marines or Specres pulled her quantum box from the ship and wandered off with it.
As to the rest of the crew, most of them are established as either loyal to Shepard, the mission, or (in the case of Jacob), just getting shit done.
The only way this starts to make sense is if Timmy's indoctrination occurs before the events of ME3. Though, without checking, I think that's supposed to happen sometime after Shepard blows the collector base. (Based on other videos that pop up in the lab.)
It also raises more questions, like, why would Timmy send you after the reapers, why complete Lazarus, instead of handing Shepard over to the reapers.
Honestly, though, all of this is somewhat speculation.
The problem is, ultimately, the reason TIM is the only one going after the collectors is because Shepard always suffers from the "no one believes me" BS, and TIM is presented as a character who uses him to get what they want. The Alliance and Council are ignoring the attacks because it would undermine the idea of Shepard as a "rogue cop on the edge".
Mortai Gravesend said:
Mortai Gravesend said:
Especially when the attacks on the human colonies seemed to be happening at a decent pace. The Council would likely not be interested.
No, The Council doesn't give a shit, either before or after. Though, if this was justification for tossing in with terrorists, Shepard should have been signing on with Timmy way back in the first game. When he actually had no standing with the Council, the Alliance, and lacked any resources, and had only personal exposure to Saren and his master plan.
No, that wasn't enough justification in and of itself. But it contributes. And you're completely ignoring that the Illusive Man made no offer towards Shepard in the first game, and even when he didn't have the Council on his side then he had Anderson helping him and he had the Normandy. How exactly can you expect him to sign on with them when there was no offer?
I'm not ignoring that he didn't make the offer, I'm ignoring that he (rather implausibly) did not exist in the first game at all. But, for the moment, that's tangential.
Mortai Gravesend said:
Further there's the show of good will that they extend by resurrecting him, which ought to show their willingness to work with him beyond what they could have shown in the first game. You know, I don't even know if the Illusive Man would have believed him in the first game anyway.
Resurrecting Shepard really doesn't make a lot of sense, on any front. Then again, killing off Shepard doesn't really make any narrative sense, so we come full circle, I guess.
Again, though, the point I'm trying to illustrate is that Cerberus basically gets completely retconned between the games, and that the only way to reconcile the first and second games (in a larger context) is to assume they are actually occurring in separate distinct universes.
The excuse we get for Cerberus' behavior in the second game is that "those were rogue operations", but in the first and second game combined we literally run into a single non-rogue op (not counting the Normandy, for obvious reasons). At some point the plausibility part of plausible dependability has to be dragged out behind the woodshed.
Mortai Gravesend said:
Mortai Gravesend said:
They didn't care much about what happened to Eden Prime. So providing the level of resources needed would be unlikely. Alliance? Shepard lacks special authority with them, and no doubt they'd wouldn't be ready to immediately throw Shepard back into the fight after supposedly dying and being resurrected by a terrorist organization.
The problem is of course, that the Alliance already was investigating the colony attacks. If I recall correctly, it's even hinted that Cerberus has actually undermined the Alliance investigation at previous sites.
Additionally, Shepard does have special standing in the Alliance, even before the events of the first game. Remember, Shepard was an N7 operative before the first game began. It doesn't lend them special autonomy, but that autonomy isn't needed to carry out investigations.
Note that the problems I listed with the Alliance in that section had nothing to do with their willingness to investigate the attacks on the colonies. It had to do with the fact that Shepard was supposedly dead, is now suddenly alive again, and apparently this is due to an incredibly expensive secret project by a terrorist organization. Would it really make sense to think they would immediately put Shepard on the job with a bunch of people who are not from the Alliance? And he'd need a new ship capable of standing up to the Collectors. As far as I know they didn't go and build a new Normandy.
Depending on player actions in the first game, they actually did. Two of them if I recall correctly. The only way for more Normandy class ships to be built, is if Shepard passes snap inspection in the first game using all persuade options (it might even have to be matched persuade options, all charm or all intimidate, I really don't remember). Do that, and you'll get a news flash on Omega in 2 talking about one of the ships conducting a mission, and in 3 it will be added to your War Assets page after completing The Archives.
As to Shepard being dead... I'm not going to pass up another opportunity to say that from a narrative standpoint that was really stupid.
But, anyway, and... yes, again, we do know that the Alliance was investigating the collector attacks.
Mortai Gravesend said:
Oh. True, there is some special standing. But it doesn't seem like there's enough there to give Shepard the resources needed.
To be fair, it gave them enough standing to get forwarded as a Specre candidate.
Mortai Gravesend said:
Mortai Gravesend said:
Your complaint is that it doesn't fit Shepard's personality to work with them, yes? She provided an explanation for how it fits. If all you can do is repeat your idea that it is simply forced(which duh the story is trying to go along those lines) well that's not much of an argument for how it fails to fit.
The player is forced to side with Cerberus through the events of ME2, even though, and I mean this, even though there is literally no narrative reason Shepard couldn't ditch Cerberus and make nice to the Alliance or Council again, more likely the Council, the first chance they get.
Which, of course never stopped Shepard from taking missions from the Alliance in the first game...
And again, it's not like Shepard's obsession with the reapers was ever a breaking point for the Council. Also, don't forget Turian "we have dismissed that claim" Councilor's comment accepting the existence of the reapers in the paragon pre-credits sequence in ME1.
Finally, just throwing this out there, but by the time ME2 rolls around, the humans are a council species, the collectors are a known race, not some space boogieman myth, increased aggression by them against any council race would certainly justify some investigation, given the risk that the collectors have an unknown new plan that could threaten council space.
Put another way, the collectors are behaving in an abnormal way, and if there's anything that freaks out bureaucracies of any stripe, it's abnormal behavior.
Additionally, we know that Specres are dispatched into the Terminus systems from time to time. They have no official authority there, but they do it anyway.
Mortai Gravesend said:
The best I can give you on that is that it's plausible Shepard would take the Normandy 2 and book. There isn't even, really, a time constraint issue, as the set time frame for ME2 covers an entire year, (with some of the DLC scattered over an additional year beyond that). By the time you finish Lair of the Shadowbroker (canonically) it's been between one and a half to two years since Shepard woke up in the tutorial. Not exactly the definition of, "I can't turn myself in because they'd lock me up, and I need to save the world right now."
How's Shepard going to take the Normandy 2 with EDI there still working for the Illusive Man? She had certain constraints until Joker released her, yeah? IIRC they even mention in 3 that she helped stop the Illusive Man from tracking the Normandy later. And most of the crew was Cerberus except for some of your squad, Chakwas, and Joker.
Hmm. I did not know about the time frame. Still, pretty sure they were trying to go as fast as they could. I doubt the time taken was just due to being lazy or something.
You mean you didn't stop and strip mine half the galaxy in search of enough Platinum for that one more shotgun upgrade, or to find that mission with the busted solar arrays?
Again, addressing the above issues, the crew's loyalty is pretty irrelevant when you can dock at the citadel whenever you please.
Mortai Gravesend said:
Mortai Gravesend said:
Looking over the whole conversation, following that particular point, you've really given no real indication what you're talking about.
The collectors are targeting human colonies because, humans are the most genetically diverse species in the galaxy...
Right...
Okay, first thing wrong with that statement, your cats are more genetically diverse than you are.
Humans aren't particularly genetically diverse, and I say that from a general standpoint. Current research suggests that we recovered from a near extinction event sometime recently (20-40k years ago), and we still haven't rebuilt our diversity up from that. It's part of why boinking your cousin is a bad idea.
And, when you get right down to it, there isn't actually a hell of a lot of genetic diversity on this planet. This isn't an ecology rant about extinction, it's simply there isn't.
This is opposite a species that fucks other species to reproduce. Which should indicate a slightly higher degree of diversity. This got retconned into they use their partner's DNA to randomize their own. But it would still predispose them towards more genetic diversity, as they're actually randomizing their genome, and not limited to the available genomes for their species.
A species that reproduces in clutches of thousands, and considers irradiation a good way to stay warm... Yeah, with those population numbers alone, they'd have to have RNA of goddamn lead not to mutate on a fairly regular basis.
A species that has a generational cycle of 10 years, and also produces in abnormally large numbers.
Mortai Gravesend said:
Mortai Gravesend said:
Now I know in you're head you're oh so great and have a clear idea of what you're talking about, but you've been pretty terrible at communicating it.
Yup, wouldn't be the first time I've been rude. Here's a truth, I'm not the nicest guy out there. I tend to speak my mind. I tend to be up front about things. And if someone says something that is catastrophically stupid, I'll usually call them out for it.
Mortai Gravesend said:
Mortai Gravesend said:
So far the clue is that it is a part where the science is bad and it is a plot point somewhere in the series. You can just say what it is instead of not saying it for the purposes of ego masturbation.
It's not masturbatory, to be sure. Vault is evoking some really... pronounced fanwank logic, and wrapping it in an air of superiority, which is, as I said, annoying me.
Erm, between the two of you you're the one that seems like they're deliberately trying to sound superior. Constant phrases thrown in just to attack her personally and all.
Between the two of us, I'm also the one with more consistent spelling skills. It's not that spelling, punctuation, and grammar equal authority when it comes to a debate... no, wait, yes, it really kinda is.
Between the two of us, I'm also the one with more consistent spelling skills. It's not that spelling, punctuation, and grammar equal authority when it comes to a debate... no, wait, yes, it really kinda is.
If you'd like to adopt an air of superiority, it would help if you spellchecked your posts, even a little. Now anyone can make a typo, a little transposition or missed letter, but your posts have been filled with shoddy spelling.
No, it's me reading what you say, if you say that was unintentional, then it's you saying things you don't mean. And my psychic powers aren't quite at the point where I can gnostically absorb your intent through the internet.
Vault101 said:
[quote/]No, the "damn fanboys thing" had to do with that entire bout of trying to spoon feed the plot of ME2 back to me in the assumption that it was somehow explain why Shepard was egregiously out of character.
actually I was refering to the very first part of this argument, it started out
you: I think the writing is bad
me: I don't think it is
You: yeah it is...
me: no I really don't think so[/quote]
...and then assumed I hadn't played the second game. And "evidenced" that assumption with a string of speculatory statements about how Shepard being completely out of character made sense to you.
Vault101 said:
[quote/]Well, screwing up the spoiler tags is definitely winning you points in this discussion.
oh dear lord! I made a mistake with spoiler tags! obviously everything I say is wrong because only retarded fanboys would ever have the audacity to make a mistake with spoiler tags...
again I really feel like your nitpicking/making up stupid shit to try prove I'm some kind of idiot[/quote]
No, the nitpicking is because the errors really do make you look bad. The spoiler tag in question managed to reverse the attribution of everything we both said in that little exchange. And these are, without exception, easy things to fix.
You see that preview button down there? Next to post? That will let you see how the post will look, not how it should look, how it actually will. Mistakes like that are stupidly easy to find.
Not doing these things, not checking your spelling, not checking your tags... well, it makes it look like you don't care about your own argument. And if you don't take your argument seriously, why should I?
Vault101 said:
my original point still stands....if you wanted to say "shepard working with cerberus is completley out of charachter and a result of bad writing for x reasons" you should have said that
instead you just asked a bunch of random questions, somwhow expecting me to "get" what you ment
Except, and this is kind of where you got into trouble, you tried to answer those questions by justifying the writing. Honest to god, if a piece of writing is good, genuinely good, you don't need to defend it. It will hold up on it's own. You can lash out at it, but it doesn't need a non-textual defense. What you offered veered off of the actual content of the game into speculation. It's not a defense of the writing, it's rewriting reality in order to make the story make sense. That's the other thing, bad writing.
Vault101 said:
[quote/]But, if you don't understand, ask. Answering the wrong question only makes you look like a biased zealot to the cause. It undermines whatever you hoped you could say, and makes you come across as... shall we say, less than articulate
what?.....so all those times I asked what the fuck you were talking about in regards to the science/plot thing (as far as I understand now, somthing to do with diversity) and all you gave me was cryptic hints?.....what was that?[/quote]
Look up.
Vault101 said:
you think me answering those questions made me look like a "zealous fan" but your under the opinion that shepard working for cerberus was was retardedly out of characher...I am of the oposite opinion for those reasons
I thourght it came across in my post that I wasnt 100% sure myself (obviously not), you aparently corrected that for me....however pointing out its pronounciation definetly seemed unessicary....but I guess it really doesnt matter how we are interpreting each others posts [/quote]
In that case you should have offered some indication in the text itself.
See, here's the thing about the internet, you can't tell if I'm writing this in a rage, in tears, or with a look of sadistic glee on my face. If you want to say, "hey, I don't know this" or, "I'm not sure", you need to indicate it in your text. If you're not sure about what Deus Ex Machina meant, you should have said something along the lines of "as I recall, Deus Ex Machina is X" or, "isn't that when X".
Now, going back and checking, I can see where you tried to do that, but, it wasn't very clear, you weren't absolutely certain what the term was.
As for pronunciation? Because a lot of people, quite frankly, don't know it. I cannot count how many idiots I've seen pronounce it "deuce". I'm familiar with the term, with it's lingual origins, what it means, and what's more, I never said you weren't. Go back and look. I said I knew how it was pronounced and you flew off the goddamn handle. If you didn't mean to, then it might be time for you to go back and work on your written communication skills.
Vault101 said:
[quote/]I'll get back to it in a bit, right now I've got slightly more important things to deal with.
yes, like arguing over who has the air of supriority or spoiler/ tag mistakes[/quote]No, it's just that Mortai was making some interesting points, and it would be impolite to spend all my night addressing your issues.
Between the two of us, I'm also the one with more consistent spelling skills. It's not that spelling, punctuation, and grammar equal authority when it comes to a debate... no, wait, yes, it really kinda is.
Do we have any idea how the extension is being distributed for PC? I still haven't bought the game yet, I want to, but Origin turns me off to it. Patch or automatic update?
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