Porn and the Art of Rape

[Tsukuyomi]

Whenever this subject comes up I'm never a hundred percent sure what to say. I get the not-insane arguments by people against it, and I respect them. I can see where one can say there's an objectification problem in terms of women and it probably should be fixed. But on the flip-side there is the argument that Porn is, or at least was until relatively recent, made largely for males. It's all valid points but I'm not sure we'll ever do anything but go back and forth and frankly I don't think I'm wise enough to be able to come up with any new solutions or a heavily defined opinion. However I would like to point out a few things in terms of what people have been mentioning. Put some stuff into a possible form of context or explanation.

Mostly, relating to the violence/choking/rough sex issue, I think this stems from the belief of many men who claim with a hundred and ten percent certainty that 'women like assholes'. Just yesterday two co-workers of mine, one probably 20 or so, the other easily into his 50s, were agreeing with each other about how women crave attention and if you deny them that it only makes them want to work harder for your attention. How you have to not care and be a jerk.

Now I've had a female friend of mine tell me that women can smell confidence. Not literally, but you get the idea. and I can see where what those two were saying is a kind of twisted confidence that might indeed attract some women, to me that seems horrible. However to me that also seems like the norm. So if it is, unfortunately I think we have the following thought-process playing out:

Women are attracted to confidence-assholes are confident on the oustide-assholes treat girls like shit-treating girls like shit shows them you're confident-therefore, women like being treated like shit.

Personally I disagree with that, and I...may not have done that entirely right but I think you get where I'm going. I think it does indeed happen as a reflection of society, but it also re-enforces those notions as it reflects them, and the notions are just twisted or distorted versions of reasonable things.

A thought if someone wants to change porn/this ideal: There's a common porn-plot where some off-the-street young thing is brought in and mauled by male porn-actors. It's enjoyable for whoever watches it for whatever reason.

If we want to change the 'treating women like trash is sexy' concept, why not take that plot and flip it? Find some well-meaning, kind guy who's either genuinely off the street or 'off the street' and offer him the chance to sleep with highly-attractive women. If porn is indeed such a powerful influence on our sexual psyche, would this not eventually get the 'being NICE to women is what gets you laid' idea into general circulation?

 

[Thaluikhain]

The women who are PAID to be in those are in there knowing what type of porn it's going to be

Nominally. There are any number of former porn actresses that would disagree with that.

Besides the obvious examples of women directly forced to make porn, you have, for example, people like Max Hardcore who would get a woman (preferable foreign with no support base) to agree to a scene, turn up on the day at an isolated location with them and several men in his employ, and be told they'd have to do things they hadn't agree on, or reimburse them the cost of setting up the shoot.

I'm led to believe this isn't an isolated thing. Hell, prostitution can be less than fun, a camera isn't going to fix that.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

The women who are PAID to be in those are in there knowing what type of porn it's going to be

Nominally. There are any number of former porn actresses that would disagree with that.

Besides the obvious examples of women directly forced to make porn, you have, for example, people like Max Hardcore who would get a woman (preferable foreign with no support base) to agree to a scene, turn up on the day at an isolated location with them and several men in his employ, and be told they'd have to do things they hadn't agree on, or reimburse them the cost of setting up the shoot.

I'm led to believe this isn't an isolated thing. Hell, prostitution can be less than fun, a camera isn't going to fix that.

That sounds like extremest propaganda and a bad case of cherry-picking to me.

 

[Axolotl]

You did indeed say that you believed porn isn't sexist in nature

Never said that I didn't. What I didn't said that porn isn't sexist.

and used an example to imply that such a belief is obvious, as show below:

Did you even read the post you replied to?


Now if you have a point could you just tell me it instead of insisting I've said things that I haven't.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

You did indeed say that you believed porn isn't sexist in nature

Never said that I didn't. What I didn't said that porn isn't sexist.

and used an example to imply that such a belief is obvious, as show below:

Did you even read the post you replied to?


Now if you have a point could you just tell me it instead of insisting I've said things that I haven't.

Hm? I don't understand what you wrote. You claimed you hadn't said porn wasn't sexist

2. At no point did I say that I believed porn isn't sexist.

and I showed you a quote where you did indeed say porn wasn't sexist

Is pornography sexist in nature?

No.

Now that was easy.

but you seem to be denying that? I can't really understand your text.

 

[Thaluikhain]

That sounds like extremest propaganda and a bad case of cherry-picking to me.

Why? There is a massive market in illegal prostitution in the US, there is a massive number of rapes committed in the US each year (not saying there's no overlap), there's no way the pornography industry can keep itself seperate from that.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

That sounds like extremest propaganda and a bad case of cherry-picking to me.

Why? There is a massive market in illegal prostitution in the US, there is a massive number of rapes committed in the US each year (not saying there's no overlap), there's no way the pornography industry can keep itself seperate from that.

You're implying it isn't uncommon for the women in porn to be there against their will. That's what I'm taking issue with. If you could show some sort of research, I would appreciate it.

 

[Axolotl]

You did indeed say that you believed porn isn't sexist in nature

Never said that I didn't. What I didn't said that porn isn't sexist.

and used an example to imply that such a belief is obvious, as show below:

Did you even read the post you replied to?


Now if you have a point could you just tell me it instead of insisting I've said things that I haven't.

Hm? I don't understand what you wrote. You claimed you hadn't said porn wasn't sexist

2. At no point did I say that I believed porn isn't sexist.

and I showed you a quote where you did indeed say porn wasn't sexist

Is pornography sexist in nature?

No.

Now that was easy.

but you seem to be denying that? I can't really understand your text.

Compare and contrast "Pornography is sexist" with "Pornography is sexist in nature". They are not the same statement and they mean different things. The fact that I disagree with one does not mean I dissagree with the other.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

You did indeed say that you believed porn isn't sexist in nature

Never said that I didn't. What I didn't said that porn isn't sexist.

and used an example to imply that such a belief is obvious, as show below:

Did you even read the post you replied to?


Now if you have a point could you just tell me it instead of insisting I've said things that I haven't.

Hm? I don't understand what you wrote. You claimed you hadn't said porn wasn't sexist

2. At no point did I say that I believed porn isn't sexist.

and I showed you a quote where you did indeed say porn wasn't sexist

Is pornography sexist in nature?

No.

Now that was easy.

but you seem to be denying that? I can't really understand your text.

Compare and contrast "Pornography is sexist" with "Pornography is sexist in nature". They are not the same statement and they mean different things. The fact that I disagree with one does not mean I dissagree with the other.

Both those statements mean the same thing, though; the nature of something defines it, so if something is or isn't sexist in nature, it would be the same in affect.

That feels like an extreme strawman.

 

[Durgiun]

Ah, Andrea Dworkin. I remember watching three videos on YouTube with one of her anti-porn speeches. The woman's arguements depend on emotional manipulation and nothing else. Go watch the videos (write in Andrea Dworkin Pornography speech in the search browser) and you'll see my point. She lists of various acts in a sad, then angry then shocked then enraged voice. What you won't see is her listing off WHERE she saw all of these acts, which porn titles and from which studio.

And the best part... She has numerous supporters to this day. Talk about the stereotype about women being emotional and unable to use reason.

Oh, and she claimed to have been raped in the late 90s. To this day, no real proof has been found, if I'm not mistaken. But she was DAMN sure she was and that was all the proof her tiny, psychotic brain needed.

I swear, if she wasn't cremated I would have flown to America and defiled her grave in ways that would've made her detractors say ''what the fuck, man''.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

Ah, Andrea Dworkin. I remember watching three videos on YouTube with one of her anti-porn speeches. The woman's arguements depend on emotional manipulation and nothing else. Go watch the videos (write in Andrea Dworkin Pornography speech in the search browser) and you'll see my point. She lists of various acts in a sad, then angry then shocked then enraged voice. What you won't see is her listing off WHERE she saw all of these acts, which porn titles and from which studio.

And the best part... She has numerous supporters to this day. Talk about the stereotype about women being emotional and unable to use reason.

Oh, and she claimed to have been raped in the late 90s. To this day, no real proof has been found, if I'm not mistaken. But she was DAMN sure she was and that was all the proof her tiny, psychotic brain needed.

I swear, if she wasn't cremated I would have flown to America and defiled her grave in ways that would've made her detractors say ''what the fuck, man''.

Hey now, that's all a bit offensively extreme. Disliking her is no cause to mock her alleged rape or talk about defiling her grave, even jokingly. Sinking to that sort of level just makes your argument look bad.

 

[Thaluikhain]

You're implying it isn't uncommon for the women in porn to be there against their will. That's what I'm taking issue with. If you could show some sort of research, I would appreciate it.

I don't have any off the top of my head, might have to get back to you with that.

Oh, and she claimed to have been raped in the late 90s. To this day, no real proof has been found, if I'm not mistaken. But she was DAMN sure she was and that was all the proof her tiny, psychotic brain needed.

Right, so she's sure she didn't give consent, but that shouldn't be important to her unless it's one of the tiny proportion of rapes that ends in a conviction?

 

[Clearing the Eye]

You're implying it isn't uncommon for the women in porn to be there against their will. That's what I'm taking issue with. If you could show some sort of research, I would appreciate it.

I don't have any off the top of my head, might have to get back to you with that.

Oh, and she claimed to have been raped in the late 90s. To this day, no real proof has been found, if I'm not mistaken. But she was DAMN sure she was and that was all the proof her tiny, psychotic brain needed.

Right, so she's sure she didn't give consent, but that shouldn't be important to her unless it's one of the tiny proportion of rapes that ends in a conviction?

It was indeed fairly offensive, Durquin's post. I've no idea at all if Dworkin ever was raped, but she's passed now, so I would think it's best for the general public to let that aspect of her life go.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

As a man lacking any notable degree of shame who has seen much of the worst that the internet has to offer, I'm going to have to say that yes, pornography is quite sexist. It is something that disturbs me greatly, as much of what is out there is quite obviously degrading and quite obviously fucked up. Personally I have this bizarre fetish about heterosexuals having sex and being happy about it, but I've definitely seen my fair share of torture, rape, and violence related pornography, and I find it to be quite wrong. Torture, rape, and violence are not and should not be considered attractive. Accepting different sexual desires should not be stretched out to extremes. There are certain sexual desires that do not deserve to be fed, end of story.

 

[Geo Da Sponge]

<__>

*Raises hand*

If your average pornography is sexist, can you balance it out by watching some pegging? I'm just saying, I'm a submissive bisexual guy so I can be pretty flexible in how I get my rocks off here. Is it okay to objectify people if you do it to both genders equally and in unusual ways?

Okay, half-jokes aside...

Compare and contrast "Pornography is sexist" with "Pornography is sexist in nature". They are not the same statement and they mean different things. The fact that I disagree with one does not mean I dissagree with the other.

Both those statements mean the same thing, though; the nature of something defines it, so if something is or isn't sexist in nature, it would be the same in affect.

That feels like an extreme strawman.

I think what he's getting at is that in thory pornography doesn't have to be sexist, but most of what he have in our current society is anyway. He's just not being very clear because the phrase "Pornography is sexist in nature" can be interpreted in all kinds of differnt ways.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

As a man lacking any notable degree of shame who has seen much of the worst that the internet has to offer, I'm going to have to say that yes, pornography is quite sexist. It is something that disturbs me greatly, as much of what is out there is quite obviously degrading and quite obviously fucked up. Personally I have this bizarre fetish about heterosexuals having sex and being happy about it, but I've definitely seen my fair share of torture, rape, and violence related pornography, and I find it to be quite wrong. Torture, rape, and violence are not and should not be considered attractive. Accepting different sexual desires should not be stretched out to extremes. There are certain sexual desires that do not deserve to be fed, end of story.

Why is that? More importantly, who are you to say where the line is or to draw it for others? You would have to have a better reason than "It's wrong," else you would have to allow others to ban such things as homosexual porn with no more a reason.

I personally find some forms of violence or implied violence to be erotic, no matter the genders involved.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

As a man lacking any notable degree of shame who has seen much of the worst that the internet has to offer, I'm going to have to say that yes, pornography is quite sexist. It is something that disturbs me greatly, as much of what is out there is quite obviously degrading and quite obviously fucked up. Personally I have this bizarre fetish about heterosexuals having sex and being happy about it, but I've definitely seen my fair share of torture, rape, and violence related pornography, and I find it to be quite wrong. Torture, rape, and violence are not and should not be considered attractive. Accepting different sexual desires should not be stretched out to extremes. There are certain sexual desires that do not deserve to be fed, end of story.

Why is that? More importantly, who are you to say where the line is or to draw it for others? You would have to have a better reason than "It's wrong," else you would have to allow others to ban such things as homosexual porn with no more a reason.

I personally find some forms of violence or implied violence to be erotic, no matter the genders involved.

If the act itself is quite obviously wrong, then the desire to carry out the act is also wrong. And where in the world did I mention banning anything? Assumptions that the other side will try to enforce their opinions legally only diminishes from arguments.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

As a man lacking any notable degree of shame who has seen much of the worst that the internet has to offer, I'm going to have to say that yes, pornography is quite sexist. It is something that disturbs me greatly, as much of what is out there is quite obviously degrading and quite obviously fucked up. Personally I have this bizarre fetish about heterosexuals having sex and being happy about it, but I've definitely seen my fair share of torture, rape, and violence related pornography, and I find it to be quite wrong. Torture, rape, and violence are not and should not be considered attractive. Accepting different sexual desires should not be stretched out to extremes. There are certain sexual desires that do not deserve to be fed, end of story.

Why is that? More importantly, who are you to say where the line is or to draw it for others? You would have to have a better reason than "It's wrong," else you would have to allow others to ban such things as homosexual porn with no more a reason.

I personally find some forms of violence or implied violence to be erotic, no matter the genders involved.

If the act itself is quite obviously wrong, then the desire to carry out the act is also wrong. And where in the world did I mention banning anything? Assumptions that the other side will try to enforce their opinions legally only diminishes from arguments.

You implied a form of absolute intolerance here:

Torture, rape, and violence are not and should not be considered attractive. Accepting different sexual desires should not be stretched out to extremes. There are certain sexual desires that do not deserve to be fed, end of story.

Your argument against pornography with such things boils down to "I think it's wrong," and that's not a basis for such absolute claims. Many a person feels homosexuality is wrong and their opinion that it is wrong is no more a valid claim there than yours here.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

As a man lacking any notable degree of shame who has seen much of the worst that the internet has to offer, I'm going to have to say that yes, pornography is quite sexist. It is something that disturbs me greatly, as much of what is out there is quite obviously degrading and quite obviously fucked up. Personally I have this bizarre fetish about heterosexuals having sex and being happy about it, but I've definitely seen my fair share of torture, rape, and violence related pornography, and I find it to be quite wrong. Torture, rape, and violence are not and should not be considered attractive. Accepting different sexual desires should not be stretched out to extremes. There are certain sexual desires that do not deserve to be fed, end of story.

Why is that? More importantly, who are you to say where the line is or to draw it for others? You would have to have a better reason than "It's wrong," else you would have to allow others to ban such things as homosexual porn with no more a reason.

I personally find some forms of violence or implied violence to be erotic, no matter the genders involved.

If the act itself is quite obviously wrong, then the desire to carry out the act is also wrong. And where in the world did I mention banning anything? Assumptions that the other side will try to enforce their opinions legally only diminishes from arguments.

You implied a form of absolute intolerance here:

Torture, rape, and violence are not and should not be considered attractive. Accepting different sexual desires should not be stretched out to extremes. There are certain sexual desires that do not deserve to be fed, end of story.

Your argument against pornography with such things boils down to "I think it's wrong," and that's not a basis for such absolute claims. Many a person feels homosexuality is wrong and there opinion that it is wrong is no more a valid claim there than yours here.

Except their opinion is not as widely accepted or grounded in the obvious realities that things like rape and torture are so very obviously wrong. But, since I have to I will argue just why rape, torture, and violence are worse than homosexuality. All statistics show that consensual homosexual sex is quite pleasing to both parties and unlikely to be traumatizing. As for rape, violence, and torture, well I suppose one party is probably enjoying it, but the other is quite likely to be being traumatized and to not enjoy it, and the person who is doing the raping, torturing, or beating is quite likely to be increasing whatever degrees of psychosis they currently have.

I can't believe I'm having to make an argument about how rape, torture, and violence are bad things.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

As a man lacking any notable degree of shame who has seen much of the worst that the internet has to offer, I'm going to have to say that yes, pornography is quite sexist. It is something that disturbs me greatly, as much of what is out there is quite obviously degrading and quite obviously fucked up. Personally I have this bizarre fetish about heterosexuals having sex and being happy about it, but I've definitely seen my fair share of torture, rape, and violence related pornography, and I find it to be quite wrong. Torture, rape, and violence are not and should not be considered attractive. Accepting different sexual desires should not be stretched out to extremes. There are certain sexual desires that do not deserve to be fed, end of story.

Why is that? More importantly, who are you to say where the line is or to draw it for others? You would have to have a better reason than "It's wrong," else you would have to allow others to ban such things as homosexual porn with no more a reason.

I personally find some forms of violence or implied violence to be erotic, no matter the genders involved.

If the act itself is quite obviously wrong, then the desire to carry out the act is also wrong. And where in the world did I mention banning anything? Assumptions that the other side will try to enforce their opinions legally only diminishes from arguments.

You implied a form of absolute intolerance here:

Torture, rape, and violence are not and should not be considered attractive. Accepting different sexual desires should not be stretched out to extremes. There are certain sexual desires that do not deserve to be fed, end of story.

Your argument against pornography with such things boils down to "I think it's wrong," and that's not a basis for such absolute claims. Many a person feels homosexuality is wrong and there opinion that it is wrong is no more a valid claim there than yours here.

Except their opinion is not as widely accepted or grounded in the obvious realities that things like rape and torture are so very obviously wrong. But, since I have to I will argue just why rape, torture, and violence are worse than homosexuality. All statistics show that consensual homosexual sex is quite pleasing to both parties and unlikely to be traumatizing. As for rape, violence, and torture, well I suppose one party is probably enjoying it, but the other is quite likely to be being traumatized and to not enjoy it, and the person who is doing the raping, torturing, or beating is quite likely to be increasing whatever degrees of psychosis they currently have.

I can't believe I'm having to make an argument about how rape, torture, and violence are bad things.

Well, your first argument is obsolete, because how common a belief is has no bearing on its worth. Your second also misses a key point--porn is a simulation. If someone enjoys and finds arousing the images of rape or abuse upon men or women in a simulated and unreal environment, who are you to denounce such things and use terms to suggest they should not be allowed to? If the parties are consenting adults, what they do together for sexual gratification is of no concern to you. If you mean to detest the actual acts of rape or abuse upon real people in real situations, your absolute and broad language is ineffectual, as you encompass content outside of your purpose.

I'm curious, would you tell me how you feel about one of my larger fetishes? I find women with bruises on their arms or legs, or with scars on their wrists to be very arousing. This is a form of implied violence, as the violence is not visible, but it is suggested there has been violence taken place.