Porn and the Art of Rape

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Clearing the Eye

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If you ask Merriam Webster what pornography is, they'll tell you it's the deception of erotic material intended to cause arousal. Seems reasonable. If you ask Catherine MacKinnon or Andrea Dworkin, noted feminist activists and authors, what pornography is, you'd get a very different definition; in fact, when asked by a newspaper to define pornography, the pair described it as the dehumanizing and subsequent rape of a woman. Pornography, however you wish to define it, has been an issue of contention for quite some time, perhaps nowhere more so than within the feminist community.

"Women are presented as sexual objects who enjoy humiliation or pain" - Mackinnon and Dworkin, on pornography
During the 1980's, a visible split occurred between the vocal feminist movement, one side advocating female sexuality and the rights of artists to depict intercourse however they saw fit, and the other in staunch opposition to what they claimed to be nothing short of the objectification and rape of women. This internal debate soon spilled over into the wider community and the relationship between porn and sexual discrimination was on the leading edge of fiery argument.

The Canadian Supreme Court decision R. v. Butler (1992), drew heavily on MacKinnon's arguments that pornography is a form of sex discrimination.
New Canadian obscenity laws saw radical changes in the treatment of art and freedom of speech (or expression); explicit material of all sorts was under increased scrutiny and the Canadian Customs Department began seizing material, including Dworkin's own book on the issue, Pornography. The popular magazine, Bad Attitude, was also targeted by authorities and removed from stores as it contained depictions of lesbian sadomasochism. Gay rights activists and community members vocally opposed the new laws and claimed they were being specifically target as "obscene. An art gallery was raided and a painting containing child abuse was taken, also.

The fervor and debate perhaps saw its culmination during and shortly after the trials of Karla Homolka and Paul Bernardo. The latter was accused and later convicted of multiple counts of rape, murder and torture. The former, girlfriend of Bernado, was accused of helping her partner commit the crimes and to evade capture. What was crucial to the case were a series of videotapes made by the couple, showing in great detail their numerous rapes, assaults and murders. The jury never saw them, however, thanks in large part to MacKinnon, who fought to have them banned from being revealed or made known to the public. As a consequence, Karla Homolka was never convicted for her direct participation in the crimes, including the prolonged torture of her own sister. When the full light of day illuminated the facts, public outrage ensued.

Violent pornography would stimulate other perpetrators to commit other crimes, claimed Catherine Mackinnon on urging the tapes not be made public through trial.
In 1979, Dworkin published the aforementioned Pornography: Men Possessing Women, which analyzes contemporary and historical pornography as an industry of "woman-hating dehumanization." Dworkin argues that it is implicated in violence against women, both in its production, through the abuse of the women used to star in it and in the social consequences of its consumption by encouraging men to eroticize the domination, humiliation, and abuse of women. Shortly after the book's publication, Pornstar Linda Boreman, publicly accused her husband of beating her and forcing her to perform in various phonographic films. Mackinnon came on to act as Linda's lawyer and the three sought to take the case to courts. However, the statue of limitations rendered the cause without legal merit and the case was abandoned. It did, however, add fuel to the fires within the feminist pair and in their eyes, credibility to the notion of pornography not only being the literal depiction of the degradation and rape of women, but of it being a catalyst to provoking sexist and violent action.

[Playboy Magazine], in both text and pictures promotes both rape and child sexual abuse." - Andrea Dworkin during her testimony against pornographic magazines.
Numerous inquires, trials and commissions were undertaken on the topic of pornography in the mid to late 80's and the radical feminist movement sought to have pornographic material monitored and made illegal under federal law. Although met with the occasional minor success, their pleas went largely unheard and obscenity laws have changed little since their previous reform. A minor and extreme portion of female rights groups has lately taken cue from Dworkin's claims that porn encourages the rape of women and that of children, and one women (whom I have just forgotten the name of, sorry) infamously asked the question: what happens when this generation of men, having grown up on porn depicting submissive women with shaved and waxed genitals has children? She went on to compare what she considers the forced social pressure on women to shave their pubic area bare, to that of the programming of men to find the vagina of children sexually attractive.

Is pornography sexist in nature? Does explicit material encourage or condone a social norm of female objectification and submission? I'm interested to hear (read) your opinions on anything you may feel after reading this.
 

Relish in Chaos

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It's funny how she doesn't comment on the objectification of men in pornography. Feminists like this give the feminist community as a whole a bad name.

Oh, and porn's just fantasy, designed for you to get your rocks off and nothing more. Anyone that actually watches porn and replicates those scenarios in real-life must be fucking insane.
 

Clearing the Eye

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Relish in Chaos said:
It's funny how she doesn't comment on the objectification of men in pornography.

Oh, and porn's just fantasy, designed for you to get your rocks off and nothing more. Anyone that actually watches porn and replicates those scenarios in real-life must be fucking insane.
Not so much that neither of them comment on the objectification of men in porn, but rather they would claim there is none (or none of any great concern).
 

Darth_Dude

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Definitely. Although it really depends on the pornography in question, and who makes it. A lot of the 'mainstream' stuff is just horrible, stuff made by 'Brazzers' and their ilk, and the things portrayed are chock full of violence. It's sickening frankly. I don't know how anyone can be aroused to that crap.
 

Clearing the Eye

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Darth_Dude said:
Definitely. Although it really depends on the pornography in question, and who makes it. A lot of the 'mainstream' stuff is just horrible, stuff made by 'Brazzers' and their ilk, and the things portrayed are chock full of violence. It's sickening frankly. I don't know how anyone can be aroused to that crap.
I dated an individual sexually attracted to dogs. Nothing someone may be aroused by surprises me any more, lol. We humans are complicated.
 

Darth_Dude

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Clearing the Eye said:
Darth_Dude said:
Definitely. Although it really depends on the pornography in question, and who makes it. A lot of the 'mainstream' stuff is just horrible, stuff made by 'Brazzers' and their ilk, and the things portrayed are chock full of violence. It's sickening frankly. I don't know how anyone can be aroused to that crap.
I dated an individual sexually attracted to dogs. Nothing someone may be aroused by surprises me any more, lol. We humans are complicated Fucked up..
I fixed that for you.
 
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It's a good job that I'm not allergic to hyperbole, else I'd be in pretty critical condition right about now.
 

Clearing the Eye

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Darth_Dude said:
Clearing the Eye said:
Darth_Dude said:
Definitely. Although it really depends on the pornography in question, and who makes it. A lot of the 'mainstream' stuff is just horrible, stuff made by 'Brazzers' and their ilk, and the things portrayed are chock full of violence. It's sickening frankly. I don't know how anyone can be aroused to that crap.
I dated an individual sexually attracted to dogs. Nothing someone may be aroused by surprises me any more, lol. We humans are complicated Fucked up..
I fixed that for you.
Some more so than others, yes :p

Axolotl said:
Clearing the Eye said:
Is pornography sexist in nature?
No.

Now that was easy.
Could you say why you feel this way?
 

Clearing the Eye

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Daystar Clarion said:
It's a good job that I'm not allergic to hyperbole, else I'd be in pretty critical condition right about now.
I hope you don't mean that in regards to my writing. I tried my best to write it out well enough >_>
 
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Clearing the Eye said:
Daystar Clarion said:
It's a good job that I'm not allergic to hyperbole, else I'd be in pretty critical condition right about now.
I hope you don't mean that in regards to my writing. I tried my best to write it out well enough >_>
Oh no, not your writing.

I meant the 'feminists'.
 

Relish in Chaos

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Darth_Dude said:
Definitely. Although it really depends on the pornography in question, and who makes it. A lot of the 'mainstream' stuff is just horrible, stuff made by 'Brazzers' and their ilk, and the things portrayed are chock full of violence. It's sickening frankly. I don't know how anyone can be aroused to that crap.
I don't know how anyone can be aroused by gay porn or tentacle erotica, but you don't see me complaining that it should be banned or anything like that. Different strokes for different folks.

And you need to be specific: the porn industry is vast with many different genres. And violence? I don't know what kind of porn you've been watching, but the most violent stuff I've watched is just the rape fantasy stuff, which is clearly staged.

If anything, there's more violence in the "underground" stuff than "mainstream" porn, which is, frankly, fucking dull. Typical "mainstream" porn scenario would be a cowgirl changing in an empty barn, a cowboy looking through, the cowgirl telling the cowboy to massage her because she's aching after work, and then them just having sex. And so what if they aren't any condoms in porn? That can obviously get in the way of your arousal, since porn isn't at all meant to be realistic and, if you got proper sex education in school, you know that it's advisable to wear a condom or some other form of safe sex precaution before you have sex.

Most of these porn stars who don't wear condoms get tested beforehand. And I don't know what the fuck that "feminist" is on about when she says porn "promotes child sexual abuse". Child porn is illegal, so I don't know where she'd make the link from "shaved genitals" to "child sex".
 

LooK iTz Jinjo

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I daresay these people are akin to those that cry out that violent video games are turning our children into mass murderers. This is a product made to serve an audience with sexual arousal for 2 and a half minutes. It's made for you to jack off to when you don't have access to the real thing. Nobody pays attention to anything other than the physical attributes of the performers. No one analyses it, no one tries to get into whatever god awful story they've come up with, the viewer is just there to see some tits. The thing you also need to remember is that all these people go into it voluntarily and they get paid pretty handsomely for it.

I guess if at any point in my life I go on a rampant murder and rape spree I'll admit I was wrong, but until then people who think this way, about porn, about video games, about rock music need to shut up and keep their opinions to themselves.
 

Clearing the Eye

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Daystar Clarion said:
Clearing the Eye said:
Daystar Clarion said:
It's a good job that I'm not allergic to hyperbole, else I'd be in pretty critical condition right about now.
I hope you don't mean that in regards to my writing. I tried my best to write it out well enough >_>
Oh no, not your writing.

I meant the 'feminists'.
Ah. I take it you disagree with them, or at least feel they overreact a bit?

I like how you phrased feminists, too. Might not have been your intention, but it looks to me like you wouldn't consider them true feminists--the kind that wish to maintain equality between genders, and not to hate on men, despite what the latter may argue, lol.
 

Thaluikhain

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Clearing the Eye said:
Is pornography sexist in nature? Does explicit material encourage or condone a social norm of female objectification and submission? I'm interested to hear (read) your opinions on anything you may feel after reading this.
What do you mean by "pornography"? Do you mean it as a concept, or as the majority of pornography as it exists in the world today?

Although many anti-porn feminists are against the concept of pornography, many tend to oppose it, at least in large part because of how it exist in society today.

Mainstream pornography has become increasingly violent and degrading, the internet is full of stuff with titles like "(gender based slur) brutally ______ until she cries/vomits". Hell, even the stuff you could claim to be almost art tends to get labelled similarly when stuck into archives.

Secondly, pornography affects people. Yes, it's very easy to say "people shouldn't take porn seriosuly", but they do, the same with any other cultural element. Pornography has led to large numbers of women getting labiaplasties because they feel unnatural after comparing themselves to porn stars. Clean shaven genitals became almost overwhelmingly popular after they became popular in porn. Pornography is used as people's education about sex in many cases, though you could argue this is more a failing of sex ed.

Thirdly, there is a lot of abuse in the sex industry, and pornography is no exception. Now, this probably applies mostly to the nasty stuff anyway, but even with less dubious material, you are jacking off to something that may, or may not have been the sexual abuse of a human being. On the other hand, if you are doing it via the net, you are sing a machine that probably has ties to third world sweatshops anyway.

Fourth, in regards to objectification, pornography is overwhelmingly made for the male audience. Porn featuring guys is "gay porn" not "porn for women", for example. The depictions of male sexuality aren't generally great, but they aren't overwhelmingly demeaning, and tend to be secondary. A typical focus will feature a woman with an expression of OtT lust or fear, interacting with a penis or other appendage of a man who is otherwise offscreen.
 
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Clearing the Eye said:
Daystar Clarion said:
Clearing the Eye said:
Daystar Clarion said:
It's a good job that I'm not allergic to hyperbole, else I'd be in pretty critical condition right about now.
I hope you don't mean that in regards to my writing. I tried my best to write it out well enough >_>
Oh no, not your writing.

I meant the 'feminists'.
Ah. I take it you disagree with them, or at least feel they overreact a bit?

I like how you phrased feminists, too. Might not have been your intention, but it looks to me like you wouldn't consider them true feminists--the kind that wish to maintain equality between genders, and not to hate on men, despite what the latter may argue, lol.
Indeed :D

I consider a feminist as someone who believes in equal rights, which also makes me a feminist.

The stereotypical man-hating angry lesbian 'feminist' couldn't be further from that ideology if they tried.
 

Clearing the Eye

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LooK iTz Jinjo said:
Nobody pays attention to anything other than the physical attributes of the performers.
That is a portion of their argument; that porn reduces women to, pardon the crudeness, a series of holes and curves that feel good.
 

Clearing the Eye

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thaluikhain said:
Clearing the Eye said:
Is pornography sexist in nature? Does explicit material encourage or condone a social norm of female objectification and submission? I'm interested to hear (read) your opinions on anything you may feel after reading this.
What do you mean by "pornography"? Do you mean it as a concept, or as the majority of pornography as it exists in the world today?

Although many anti-porn feminists are against the concept of pornography, many tend to oppose it, at least in large part because of how it exist in society today.

Mainstream pornography has become increasingly violent and degrading, the internet is full of stuff with titles like "(gender based slur) brutally ______ until she cries/vomits". Hell, even the stuff you could claim to be almost art tends to get labelled similarly when stuck into archives.

Secondly, pornography affects people. Yes, it's very easy to say "people shouldn't take porn seriosuly", but they do, the same with any other cultural element. Pornography has led to large numbers of women getting labiaplasties because they feel unnatural after comparing themselves to porn stars. Clean shaven genitals became almost overwhelmingly popular after they became popular in porn. Pornography is used as people's education about sex in many cases, though you could argue this is more a failing of sex ed.

Thirdly, there is a lot of abuse in the sex industry, and pornography is no exception. Now, this probably applies mostly to the nasty stuff anyway, but even with less dubious material, you are jacking off to something that may, or may not have been the sexual abuse of a human being. On the other hand, if you are doing it via the net, you are sing a machine that probably has ties to third world sweatshops anyway.

Fourth, in regards to objectification, pornography is overwhelmingly made for the male audience. Porn featuring guys is "gay porn" not "porn for women", for example. The depictions of male sexuality aren't generally great, but they aren't overwhelmingly demeaning, and tend to be secondary. A typical focus will feature a woman with an expression of OtT lust or fear, interacting with a penis or other appendage of a man who is otherwise offscreen.
You seem to think the content (images, behaviors and concepts, etc.) within porn inspire society and not the reverse. In my opinion, porn is what it is due to the public wanting it that way--porn doesn't tell us what to like, we make porn based on what we like. The same argument used against radicals that claim video games cause violence, more or less.
 

Axolotl

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Clearing the Eye said:
Axolotl said:
Clearing the Eye said:
Is pornography sexist in nature?
No.

Now that was easy.
Could you say why you feel this way?
Because it's not, there isn't much more to it than that.

It's like asking "Is the sky yellow?" there isn't much more to say other than no.
 

Clearing the Eye

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Axolotl said:
Clearing the Eye said:
Axolotl said:
Clearing the Eye said:
Is pornography sexist in nature?
No.

Now that was easy.
Could you say why you feel this way?
Because it's not, there isn't much more to it than that.

It's like asking "Is the sky yellow?" there isn't much more to say other than no.
I think you're oversimplifying the subject a bit much. There's people in this thread that seem rather intelligent and happen to disagree with you. If it were that obvious, that wouldn't really be, would it?