Porn and the Art of Rape

[Darth_Dude]

Definitely. Although it really depends on the pornography in question, and who makes it. A lot of the 'mainstream' stuff is just horrible, stuff made by 'Brazzers' and their ilk, and the things portrayed are chock full of violence. It's sickening frankly. I don't know how anyone can be aroused to that crap.

I don't know how anyone can be aroused by gay porn or tentacle erotica, but you don't see me complaining that it should be banned or anything like that. Different strokes for different folks.

And you need to be specific: the porn industry is vast with many different genres. And violence? I don't know what kind of porn you've been watching, but the most violent stuff I've watched is just the rape fantasy stuff, which is clearly staged.

If anything, there's more violence in the "underground" stuff than "mainstream" porn, which is, frankly, fucking dull. Typical "mainstream" porn scenario would be a cowgirl changing in an empty barn, a cowboy looking through, the cowgirl telling the cowboy to massage her because she's aching after work, and then them just having sex. And so what if they aren't any condoms in porn? That can obviously get in the way of your arousal, since porn isn't at all meant to be realistic and, if you got proper sex education in school, you know that it's advisable to wear a condom or some other form of safe sex precaution before you have sex.

Most of these porn stars who don't wear condoms get tested beforehand.

The violence isn't real of course, it's staged. But that doesn't make it any better in a context like this. (I didnt mention that originally, I apologize.)

And by 'mainstream' I mean pornography made by producers such has Brazzers. Just go to their website and take a look. There's images of women being chocked, and abused.

Also, I didnt mention condoms AT ALL. I don't know why you went on that tangent?

 

[Thaluikhain]

You seem to think the content (images, behaviors and concepts, etc.) within porn inspire society and not the reverse. In my opinion, porn is what it is due to the public wanting it that way--porn doesn't tell us what to like, we make porn based on what we like. The same argument used against radicals that claim video games cause violence, more or less.

I wouldn't say it was just a one way thing.

Yes, cultural things reflects society, and porn along with it (inter-racial porn was a massive taboo until relatively recently, for example).

However, people are greatly influenced by the culture they have grown up with/live in. Pornography is very important in our culture's relation to sex. Now, to claim that such and such cultural thing directly caused such and such result is an over-simplification, but they can certainly encourage things. Like you say, it can't tell you what to like, but it's not bad at persuading.

For example, nobody says a magazine full of thin girls causes any specific young women who aren't unusually thin to turn to anorexia, but a media that constantly depicts attractive women as thin has led to an increase of body issue problems amongst young women.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

Definitely. Although it really depends on the pornography in question, and who makes it. A lot of the 'mainstream' stuff is just horrible, stuff made by 'Brazzers' and their ilk, and the things portrayed are chock full of violence. It's sickening frankly. I don't know how anyone can be aroused to that crap.

I don't know how anyone can be aroused by gay porn or tentacle erotica, but you don't see me complaining that it should be banned or anything like that. Different strokes for different folks.

And you need to be specific: the porn industry is vast with many different genres. And violence? I don't know what kind of porn you've been watching, but the most violent stuff I've watched is just the rape fantasy stuff, which is clearly staged.

If anything, there's more violence in the "underground" stuff than "mainstream" porn, which is, frankly, fucking dull. Typical "mainstream" porn scenario would be a cowgirl changing in an empty barn, a cowboy looking through, the cowgirl telling the cowboy to massage her because she's aching after work, and then them just having sex. And so what if they aren't any condoms in porn? That can obviously get in the way of your arousal, since porn isn't at all meant to be realistic and, if you got proper sex education in school, you know that it's advisable to wear a condom or some other form of safe sex precaution before you have sex.

Most of these porn stars who don't wear condoms get tested beforehand.

The violence isn't real of course, it's staged. But that doesn't make it any better in a context like this. (I didnt mention that originally, I apologize.)

And by 'mainstream' I mean pornography made by producers such has Brazzers. Just go to their website and take a look. There's images of women being chocked, and abused.

Also, I didnt mention condoms AT ALL. I don't know why you went on that tangent?

I think the type of violence and the context therein is important, also. It is to me, at least. I actually find some forms of violence involving men or women to be quite seductive if done correctly, such as the new Hitman Trailer. Things like implied violence or danger can also be very appealing. But something like, say, just choking or punching a woman or man is not the least bit sexy in my eyes.

My capthca: "Love you". Lol.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

You seem to think the content (images, behaviors and concepts, etc.) within porn inspire society and not the reverse. In my opinion, porn is what it is due to the public wanting it that way--porn doesn't tell us what to like, we make porn based on what we like. The same argument used against radicals that claim video games cause violence, more or less.

I wouldn't say it was just a one way thing.

Yes, cultural things reflects society, and porn along with it (inter-racial porn was a massive taboo until relatively recently, for example).

However, people are greatly influenced by the culture they have grown up with/live in. Pornography is very important in our culture's relation to sex. Now, to claim that such and such cultural thing directly caused such and such result is an over-simplification, but they can certainly encourage things. Like you say, it can't tell you what to like, but it's not bad at persuading.

For example, nobody says a magazine full of thin girls causes any specific young women who aren't unusually thin to turn to anorexia, but a media that constantly depicts attractive women as thin has led to an increase of body issue problems amongst young women.

You make a good point and I agree, a society influences their media in the same way, but perhaps to a different degree, that media affects the society.

I was just under the perception that you thought it was more of a one-way street, with the media doing all the leg work.

 

[Axolotl]

Is pornography sexist in nature?

No.

Now that was easy.

Could you say why you feel this way?

Because it's not, there isn't much more to it than that.

It's like asking "Is the sky yellow?" there isn't much more to say other than no.

I think you're oversimplifying the subject a bit much. There's people in this thread that seem rather intelligent and happen to disagree with you. If it were that obvious, that wouldn't really be, would it?

I never said anything was obvious, merely that it is not sexist in nature.

 

[BathorysGraveland]

Hmm, I wonder, if someone showed them some femdom clips (female controlled BDSM, basically), would they then say it was rape of a man? And so pornography as a whole is the rape of both genders? Or is there some sexist bias in there? Just wondering.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

Is pornography sexist in nature?

No.

Now that was easy.

Could you say why you feel this way?

Because it's not, there isn't much more to it than that.

It's like asking "Is the sky yellow?" there isn't much more to say other than no.

I think you're oversimplifying the subject a bit much. There's people in this thread that seem rather intelligent and happen to disagree with you. If it were that obvious, that wouldn't really be, would it?

I never said anything was obvious, merely that it is not sexist in nature.

But you do imply that your belief (porn isn't sexist) is obvious through your comments.

Hmm, I wonder, if someone showed them some femdom clips (female controlled BDSM, basically), would they then say it was rape of a man? And so pornography as a whole is the rape of both genders? Or is there some sexist bias in there? Just wondering.

I think they (the two in the OP and perhaps most extreme feminists) would argue that the fact Femdom is rather obscure and something of a fetishist underground, supports their belief in a by-and-large male controlled world where women are treated as sex objects in the majority of cases.

 

[DoPo]

You seem to think the content (images, behaviors and concepts, etc.) within porn inspire society and not the reverse. In my opinion, porn is what it is due to the public wanting it that way--porn doesn't tell us what to like, we make porn based on what we like. The same argument used against radicals that claim video games cause violence, more or less.

While it is true that porn is what we like, rather than the reverse, I don't exactly see an huge issue with that. Ask people would they want to take on a full building of terrorists/bad guys on their own. I'm guessing the answer would be "no". And yet, this was the basic premise of most action movies in the 80s and the 90s. The movies are as much inspired by our desires as is porn, but people want to see this


not do it really. It's about fantasy.

 

[Relish in Chaos]

Definitely. Although it really depends on the pornography in question, and who makes it. A lot of the 'mainstream' stuff is just horrible, stuff made by 'Brazzers' and their ilk, and the things portrayed are chock full of violence. It's sickening frankly. I don't know how anyone can be aroused to that crap.

I don't know how anyone can be aroused by gay porn or tentacle erotica, but you don't see me complaining that it should be banned or anything like that. Different strokes for different folks.

And you need to be specific: the porn industry is vast with many different genres. And violence? I don't know what kind of porn you've been watching, but the most violent stuff I've watched is just the rape fantasy stuff, which is clearly staged.

If anything, there's more violence in the "underground" stuff than "mainstream" porn, which is, frankly, fucking dull. Typical "mainstream" porn scenario would be a cowgirl changing in an empty barn, a cowboy looking through, the cowgirl telling the cowboy to massage her because she's aching after work, and then them just having sex. And so what if they aren't any condoms in porn? That can obviously get in the way of your arousal, since porn isn't at all meant to be realistic and, if you got proper sex education in school, you know that it's advisable to wear a condom or some other form of safe sex precaution before you have sex.

Most of these porn stars who don't wear condoms get tested beforehand.

The violence isn't real of course, it's staged. But that doesn't make it any better in a context like this. (I didnt mention that originally, I apologize.)

And by 'mainstream' I mean pornography made by producers such has Brazzers. Just go to their website and take a look. There's images of women being chocked, and abused.

Also, I didnt mention condoms AT ALL. I don't know why you went on that tangent?

The staged violence is mostly harmless stuff, akin to rough sex or BDSM. And once again, it's fantasy. If people want to jack off to that kind of stuff, who's to stop them? As long as it's not something that actually causes harm to people, like trafficked sex slaves or underage children, then it's fine.

When I think of "mainstream porn", it's mostly the stuff you get on PornHub, and the majority of it isn't violent at all. To be honest, it's pretty vanilla.

And I guess I was just mentioning condoms as a seperate point to address the topic as a whole. I've heard people say that porn encourages unsafe sex, but unless you're an idiot and/or haven't been given proper sex education (meaning that the buck would stop at either the school, the parents or both), no-one has sexual intercourse without condoms or any alternative form of safe sex prodecure/birth control/whatever.

And as I've said before, there's just as much objectification (which, contrary to what society tells you, isn't inherently a bad thing, especially in born) of men in porn as there is women. And I'm not just talking about gay porn. How many times have you seen a video when a guy (almost) randomly walks into the room and just starts pounding his cock into the woman like a jackhammer, and most of the time, if not at all, his actual face and/or body is off-screen?

 

[Colour Scientist]

I'm a feminist but I've never taken Dworkin too seriously. Once she argued that the very act of penetration is degrading to women I lost interest in anything she had to say. I'm not saying that this dismisses the argument against pornography as a whole but Dworkin had some very bizarre and hate-fuelled ideas. I think some of her work also promotes the idea that women are, in fact, sexually passive beings which I've never agreed with (that could just be my interpretation of it though).

I find a lot of the mainstream porn-industry stuff is sexist, objectifying and degrading in nature but I don't think this warrants a wholesale ban. I've argued it before on this site but I think there needs to be a huge expansion in the diversity of porn, rather than sticking to the industry's (particularly the American industry's) formula. If you look at a lot of mainstream porn it's all almost identical with varying degrees of submission. I've never once seen a woman have a genuine orgasm or any real attempt to cater to the woman's sexual desires.

I'm well aware that most porn today caters for men (both straight and gay) and that what is available today is there because it is what has become popular but I think that the porn industry needs to realise that women are beginning to occupy a much larger portion of their target audience, hence the need to make it more diverse. From personal experience, I find that amateur stuff is much more popular amongst women because it usually steers away from the typical "guy jack-hammering a woman's mouth/vagina/ass with his dick and finishing on her face" routine. A lot of women even prefer erotica to visual porn just because it makes a better attempt at catering to common female fantasies, rather than because they have any objection to porn itself.

I'd also like to believe that if this became the case, female sexuality would become a more open topic for discussion.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

I'm a feminist but I've never taken Dworkin too seriously. Once she argued that the very act of penetration is degrading to women I lost interest in anything she had to say. I'm not saying that this dismisses the argument against pornography as a whole but Dworkin had some very bizarre and hate-fuelled ideas. I think some of her work also promotes the idea that women are, in fact, sexually passive beings which I've never agreed with (that could just be my interpretation of it though).

I find a lot of the mainstream porn-industry stuff is sexist, objectifying and degrading in nature but I don't think this warrants a wholesale ban. I've argued it before on this site but I think there needs to be a huge expansion in the diversity of porn, rather than sticking to the industry's (particularly the American industry's) formula. If you look at a lot of mainstream porn it's all almost identical with varying degrees of submission. I've never once seen a woman have a genuine orgasm or any real attempt to cater to the woman's sexual desires.

I'm well aware that most porn today caters for men (both straight and gay) and that what is available today is there because it is what has become popular but I think that the porn industry needs to realise that women are beginning to occupy a much larger portion of their target audience, hence the need to make it more diverse. From personal experience, I find that amateur stuff is much more popular amongst women because it usually steers away from the typical "guy jack-hammering a woman's mouth/vagina/ass with his dick and finishing on her face" routine. A lot of women even prefer erotica to visual porn just because it makes a better attempt at catering to common female fantasies, rather than because they have any objection to porn itself.

I'd also like to believe that if this became the case, female sexuality would become a more open topic for discussion.

I've honestly always seen the act of a woman being penetrated with a penis to be a form of "use" where the woman is submitting to the sexual needs of the man. I know logically that this isn't the case and know full well that women can be and are indeed sexual beings, the same as men, with lusts, wants, urges and gratification through sex; women can get as much out of sex and from a man as the reverse. But in the back of my mind that aforementioned thought remains.

I've no idea why. I don't like it being there, though.

 

[Relish in Chaos]

There's an entire "female-friendly" category on PornHub, and there is porn that focuses on the sexiness of men (e.g. gay porn, femdom).

And there's just as much penetration (both parties in this situation should receive pleasure) of women as there is tit-sucking and "fingering" of women (it's more the woman in this situation that receives pleasure).

 

[Clearing the Eye]

There's an entire "female-friendly" category on PornHub, and there is porn that focuses on the sexiness of men (e.g. gay porn, femdom).

And there's just as much penetration (both parties in this situation should receive pleasure) of women as there is tit-sucking and "fingering" of women (it's more the woman in this situation that receives pleasure).

They would seem to argue that the viewing of a woman masturbating turns her into an object, an act for the use of sexual gratification for men, that her pleasure from the situation is secondary or entirely irrelevant.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I'm a feminist but I've never taken Dworkin too seriously. Once she argued that the very act of penetration is degrading to women I lost interest in anything she had to say. I'm not saying that this dismisses the argument against pornography as a whole but Dworkin had some very bizarre and hate-fuelled ideas. I think some of her work also promotes the idea that women are, in fact, sexually passive beings which I've never agreed with (that could just be my interpretation of it though).

Yeah, it should be remembered that while Dworkin is very respected by Radical Feminists (that is, those that hold true to the tenants of Radical Feminism, not just feminists who happen to be radical), that's a very small subset of feminism. Personally, I tend to agree with her on what I've read, but that's not as much as it should be.

As well as that, she did use to be the go to feminism for smear campaigns, quite a few things attributed to her were made up by her opponents.

They would seem to argue that the viewing of a woman masturbating turns her into an object, an act for the use of sexual gratification for men, that her pleasure from the situation is secondary or entirely irrelevant.

If the image is there for sexual gratification of the viewer, than it is objectifying the participants. It might be less problematic than more extreme examples, though, and they might content themselves with that.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

If the image is there for sexual gratification of the viewer, than it is objectifying the participants. It might be less problematic than more extreme examples, though, and they might content themselves with that.

I wasn't arguing that the example was or wasn't sexist, just that these feminists would seem to think it is.

 

[Axolotl]

Is pornography sexist in nature?

No.

Now that was easy.

Could you say why you feel this way?

Because it's not, there isn't much more to it than that.

It's like asking "Is the sky yellow?" there isn't much more to say other than no.

I think you're oversimplifying the subject a bit much. There's people in this thread that seem rather intelligent and happen to disagree with you. If it were that obvious, that wouldn't really be, would it?

I never said anything was obvious, merely that it is not sexist in nature.

But you do imply that your belief (porn isn't sexist) is obvious through your comments.

1. Don't assume I'm implying anything, if I want to say something, I'll say it don't start getting uppity because of something you think I'm trying to say without saying.

2. At no point did I say that I believed porn isn't sexist.

3. If you really want a more detailed answer then here:

Pornography is simply work designed to appeal to people's sexuality and to arouse them. Now for this to be sexist requires that sexuality itself be inherently sexist. The existence of homosexuality should show why that isn't true.

 

[Colour Scientist]

I've honestly always seen the act of a woman being penetrated with a penis to be a form of "use" where the woman is submitting to the sexual needs of the man. I know logically that this isn't the case and know full well that women can be and are indeed sexual beings, the same as men, with lusts, wants, urges and gratification through sex; women can get as much out of sex and from a man as the reverse. But in the back of my mind that aforementioned thought remains.

I've no idea why. I don't like it being there, though.

I think that kind of attitude needs to be purged from, well, everything. It's not really your fault that it's there, given that centuries of human history have claimed that women are sexually passive, but I have to tell you, it's certainly not true.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

Is pornography sexist in nature?

No.

Now that was easy.

Could you say why you feel this way?

Because it's not, there isn't much more to it than that.

It's like asking "Is the sky yellow?" there isn't much more to say other than no.

I think you're oversimplifying the subject a bit much. There's people in this thread that seem rather intelligent and happen to disagree with you. If it were that obvious, that wouldn't really be, would it?

I never said anything was obvious, merely that it is not sexist in nature.

But you do imply that your belief (porn isn't sexist) is obvious through your comments.

1. Don't assume I'm implying anything, if I want to say something, I'll say it don't start getting uppity because of something you think I'm trying to say without saying.

2. At no point did I say that I believed porn isn't sexist.

3. If you really want a more detailed answer then here:

Pornography is simply work designed to appeal to people's sexuality and to arouse them. Now for this to be sexist requires that sexuality itself be inherently sexist. The existence of homosexuality should show why that isn't true.

You did indeed say that you believed porn isn't sexist in nature and used an example to imply that such a belief is obvious, as show below:

Is pornography sexist in nature?

No.

Now that was easy.

Could you say why you feel this way?

Because it's not, there isn't much more to it than that.

It's like asking "Is the sky yellow?" there isn't much more to say other than no.

 

[Kinokohatake]

Yes it's sexist. Women get paid normally double what a man does.

And when it come to more...brutal or violent forms of porn, well it's what I'm into. The women who are PAID to be in those are in there knowing what type of porn it's going to be

 

[Clearing the Eye]

I've honestly always seen the act of a woman being penetrated with a penis to be a form of "use" where the woman is submitting to the sexual needs of the man. I know logically that this isn't the case and know full well that women can be and are indeed sexual beings, the same as men, with lusts, wants, urges and gratification through sex; women can get as much out of sex and from a man as the reverse. But in the back of my mind that aforementioned thought remains.

I've no idea why. I don't like it being there, though.

I think that kind of attitude needs to be purged from, well, everything. It's not really your fault that it's there, given that centuries of human history have claimed that women are sexually passive, but I have to tell you, it's certainly not true.

The worst aspect of it for me personally, is that I don't even want to think that way. I know it's not true and I appreciate sexuality from all genders (including those outside of the norm). But in the back of my mind, the thought of penetrative sex between a man and a woman is always attached to a feeling of the woman being used and, to put it bluntly, allowing access to what will help the man achieve orgasm.

I believe sex to be something of a personal activity, something you share with another you love a great deal, to show them that you trust them completely and feel comfortable being exposed and vulnerable with them. It's also a way to express your desire for a partner to feel good in a way words cannot. But even with this deeply held belief, I cannot help but see penetration as the use of a woman in my subconsciousness.

Fairly distressing and upsetting, really.