Porn and the Art of Rape

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Durgiun

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thaluikhain said:
Durgiun said:
Oh, and she claimed to have been raped in the late 90s. To this day, no real proof has been found, if I'm not mistaken. But she was DAMN sure she was and that was all the proof her tiny, psychotic brain needed.
Right, so she's sure she didn't give consent, but that shouldn't be important to her unless it's one of the tiny proportion of rapes that ends in a conviction?
Story is she was drinking wine, got drowzy, fell asleep/unconscious on her bed and woke up with blood in her crotch. No real evidence as far as I know has been provided, and considering her mental instability, I really doubt she was raped. Knowing her health, god only knows what could've caused it.
 

Clearing the Eye

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Eamar said:
As a feminist who watches porn, I'd be pretty hypocritical if I believed porn was, in and of itself, sexist. I'm sure arguments could be made that some porn is sexist, but personally so long as everyone involved has given informed consent I couldn't care less what they get up to.

Sexual fantasy is a strange, strange thing. You do have to bear in mind that the "violent" porn several have mentioned is not watched exclusively by men... Rape is one of the most common female sex fantasies (**DISCLAIMER** I am not in any way saying that women actually want to be raped or that rape is ever acceptable. The fantasy rape I'm referring to bears little resemblance to the real thing, and since the women involved are fantasising about it the sex they're imagining isn't really "rape" at all **/DISCLAIMER**) It's an extension of general submissiveness in sex, which is something that appeals to a lot of people, many of whom you'd never expect it from (I've heard that people who are sexually submissive are often pretty dominant in day to day life).

So yeah, porn is designed to fulfil fantasies. Some of these fantasies may seem unsavoury to people who do not share them, but that doesn't make them wrong. Just so long as everything is consensual. Can't emphasise that enough.

[small]As for myself, well... despite all my feminist views I'd be lying if I said I'd never been turned on by "rough" porn[/small]
I get the slight urge to slap someone upside the head when they say they have a rape fantasy where they would like to be taken advantage of. Like you just pointed out, it's not rape and it's stupid and I hate it, lol.

/rant
 

Durgiun

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Clearing the Eye said:
Durgiun said:
Oh, and she claimed to have been raped in the late 90s. To this day, no real proof has been found, if I'm not mistaken. But she was DAMN sure she was and that was all the proof her tiny, psychotic brain needed.

I swear, if she wasn't cremated I would have flown to America and defiled her grave in ways that would've made her detractors say ''what the fuck, man''.
Hey now, that's all a bit offensively extreme. Disliking her is no cause to mock her alleged rape or talk about defiling her grave, even jokingly. Sinking to that sort of level just makes your argument look bad.
Offensively extreme? I consider it appropriate, since I thought her speeches were offensive to the intelligence of the entire human species. Seriously, even creationists make better arguments than she did.
 

Clearing the Eye

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Durgiun said:
Clearing the Eye said:
Durgiun said:
Oh, and she claimed to have been raped in the late 90s. To this day, no real proof has been found, if I'm not mistaken. But she was DAMN sure she was and that was all the proof her tiny, psychotic brain needed.

I swear, if she wasn't cremated I would have flown to America and defiled her grave in ways that would've made her detractors say ''what the fuck, man''.
Hey now, that's all a bit offensively extreme. Disliking her is no cause to mock her alleged rape or talk about defiling her grave, even jokingly. Sinking to that sort of level just makes your argument look bad.
Offensively extreme? I consider it appropriate, since I thought her speeches were offensive to the intelligence of the entire human species. Seriously, even creationists make better arguments than she did.
It's never okay to mock claims of rape and it is certainly repugnant to even joke about defiling someone's grave. That you find it fitting to treat a fellow human being in such a way makes you appear a great deal worse than her. No matter how much you disagree with someone, that's just uncalled for.

The woman is gone - let her rest. Argue against her ideas if you feel it warranted, but don't attack her.
 

DoPo

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rob_simple said:
People who read Catcher in the Rye and then murder John Lennon are already mentally ill.
Wait, all of them? Don't you think you're overgeneralising?

But yeah, I was supposed to add that yo my comment but it got lost in editing it.
 

Clearing the Eye

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Relish in Chaos said:
It's funny how she doesn't comment on the objectification of men in pornography.
I love the smell of false equivalence in the morning.
I was going to say it smells like tears, but then, you know...

Too soon?

Too soon.
 

Geo Da Sponge

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Clearing the Eye said:
Eamar said:
As a feminist who watches porn, I'd be pretty hypocritical if I believed porn was, in and of itself, sexist. I'm sure arguments could be made that some porn is sexist, but personally so long as everyone involved has given informed consent I couldn't care less what they get up to.

Sexual fantasy is a strange, strange thing. You do have to bear in mind that the "violent" porn several have mentioned is not watched exclusively by men... Rape is one of the most common female sex fantasies (**DISCLAIMER** I am not in any way saying that women actually want to be raped or that rape is ever acceptable. The fantasy rape I'm referring to bears little resemblance to the real thing, and since the women involved are fantasising about it the sex they're imagining isn't really "rape" at all **/DISCLAIMER**) It's an extension of general submissiveness in sex, which is something that appeals to a lot of people, many of whom you'd never expect it from (I've heard that people who are sexually submissive are often pretty dominant in day to day life).

So yeah, porn is designed to fulfil fantasies. Some of these fantasies may seem unsavoury to people who do not share them, but that doesn't make them wrong. Just so long as everything is consensual. Can't emphasise that enough.

[small]As for myself, well... despite all my feminist views I'd be lying if I said I'd never been turned on by "rough" porn[/small]
I get the slight urge to slap someone upside the head when they say they have a rape fantasy where they would like to be taken advantage of. Like you just pointed out, it's not rape and it's stupid and I hate it, lol.

/rant
Well what would you rather they called it? A 'surprise sex' fantasy?
 

Clearing the Eye

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Geo Da Sponge said:
Clearing the Eye said:
Eamar said:
As a feminist who watches porn, I'd be pretty hypocritical if I believed porn was, in and of itself, sexist. I'm sure arguments could be made that some porn is sexist, but personally so long as everyone involved has given informed consent I couldn't care less what they get up to.

Sexual fantasy is a strange, strange thing. You do have to bear in mind that the "violent" porn several have mentioned is not watched exclusively by men... Rape is one of the most common female sex fantasies (**DISCLAIMER** I am not in any way saying that women actually want to be raped or that rape is ever acceptable. The fantasy rape I'm referring to bears little resemblance to the real thing, and since the women involved are fantasising about it the sex they're imagining isn't really "rape" at all **/DISCLAIMER**) It's an extension of general submissiveness in sex, which is something that appeals to a lot of people, many of whom you'd never expect it from (I've heard that people who are sexually submissive are often pretty dominant in day to day life).

So yeah, porn is designed to fulfil fantasies. Some of these fantasies may seem unsavoury to people who do not share them, but that doesn't make them wrong. Just so long as everything is consensual. Can't emphasise that enough.

[small]As for myself, well... despite all my feminist views I'd be lying if I said I'd never been turned on by "rough" porn[/small]
I get the slight urge to slap someone upside the head when they say they have a rape fantasy where they would like to be taken advantage of. Like you just pointed out, it's not rape and it's stupid and I hate it, lol.

/rant
Well what would you rather they called it? A 'surprise sex' fantasy?
God I hate that term.

They should call it what it is--rough sex. It's impossible to want to be raped, because the very definition and spirit of the word are in direct contrast to one's will. Wanting to be roughed up, pushed around or otherwise "used," isn't rape and it's a disservice to real victims and the word to use it.
 

Gunner_Guardian

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Eamar said:
[small]As for myself, well... despite all my feminist views I'd be lying if I said I'd never been turned on by "rough" porn[/small]
Seems common amongst feminists so some odd reason.


Anyways to answer the OP, not porn isn't inherently sexist. At the end of the day it's 2 people, a man and a woman (or 2 women or whatever), having sex in front of a camera for money. What's inherently sexist about it? This carries the assumption that the act of sex itself is degrading to women which I think is a sexist opinion.
 

Clearing the Eye

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Gunner_Guardian said:
Eamar said:
[small]As for myself, well... despite all my feminist views I'd be lying if I said I'd never been turned on by "rough" porn[/small]
Seems common amongst feminists so some odd reason.


Anyways to answer the OP, not porn isn't inherently sexist. At the end of the day it's 2 people, a man and a woman (or 2 women or whatever), having sex in front of a camera for money. What's inherently sexist about it? This carries the assumption that the act of sex itself is degrading to women which I think is a sexist opinion.
You think it's common for feminists to enjoy rough porn? You're gonna have to give me some explanation here, lol. In so far as I can tell, the majority of feminists are either indifferent to porn or staunchly against it--more the former than the latter.
 

Ledan

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Clearing the Eye said:
'snippity-
I suggest you check out "Penn and Teller: Bullshit- War on Porn". Funny yet informative show, and this is one of their better episodes.

OT: I disagree. People who claim that porn is sexist against women clearly havent watched enough porn. There is porn of women dominating men, men dominating men, whichever way you bend.

Is there porn that is filmed rape? Yes. These should be banned and the criminals found and tried. Just like there is child pornography, which should be stopped.

But most stuff isn't, most porn is under consent. And I would like to ask one question to feminist that say that porn is only sexist against women: Isn't it sexist that the men are shown only as penises? Women in porn have faces, the camera focuses mainly on them. Men on the other hand are often left as disembodied tools, or shown as huge muscle-men. Anything that is sexist towards women in porn can be found to be equally sexist to men.
 

Clearing the Eye

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Ledan said:
Clearing the Eye said:
'snippity-
I suggest you check out "Penn and Teller: Bullshit- War on Porn". Funny yet informative show, and this is one of their better episodes.

OT: I disagree. People who claim that porn is sexist against women clearly havent watched enough porn. There is porn of women dominating men, men dominating men, whichever way you bend.

Is there porn that is filmed rape? Yes. These should be banned and the criminals found and tried. Just like there is child pornography, which should be stopped.

But most stuff isn't, most porn is under consent. And I would like to ask one question to feminist that say that porn is only sexist against women: Isn't it sexist that the men are shown only as penises? Women in porn have faces, the camera focuses mainly on them. Men on the other hand are often left as disembodied tools, or shown as huge muscle-men. Anything that is sexist towards women in porn can be found to be equally sexist to men.
Don't worry, I've seen and own every episode of Penn & Teller: Bullshit to date <3
 

Gunner_Guardian

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Clearing the Eye said:
Gunner_Guardian said:
Eamar said:
[small]As for myself, well... despite all my feminist views I'd be lying if I said I'd never been turned on by "rough" porn[/small]
Seems common amongst feminists so some odd reason.


Anyways to answer the OP, not porn isn't inherently sexist. At the end of the day it's 2 people, a man and a woman (or 2 women or whatever), having sex in front of a camera for money. What's inherently sexist about it? This carries the assumption that the act of sex itself is degrading to women which I think is a sexist opinion.
You think it's common for feminists to enjoy rough porn? You're gonna have to give me some explanation here, lol. In so far as I can tell, the majority of feminists are either indifferent to porn or staunchly against it--more the former than the latter.
Perhaps I should have worded it better, a lot of the feminists I've met seem to have a "rape fantasy" or submissive fantasy or whatever. I'm just commenting on a trend I'm noticing. No idea if it's actually true.
 

willer357

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What about gay porn then? I don't suppose that men having sex with other men for the enjoyment of men in a video created by men is objectifying women, but I could be wrong.

Oh no, wait, that's obviously just an example of men trying to keep women out of society at large and hold them down by not even acknowledging their existence, right?
 

rob_simple

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DoPo said:
rob_simple said:
People who read Catcher in the Rye and then murder John Lennon are already mentally ill.
Wait, all of them? Don't you think you're overgeneralising?

But yeah, I was supposed to add that yo my comment but it got lost in editing it.
Not at all, how many times must John Lennon be murdered before that damn book gets banned.
 

Eamar

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Gunner_Guardian said:
Eamar said:
[small]As for myself, well... despite all my feminist views I'd be lying if I said I'd never been turned on by "rough" porn[/small]
Seems common amongst feminists so some odd reason.
I have no idea if that's true or not, but see my original post for a theory about sexual dominance/submissiveness subverting a person's "day to day" persona.

Clearing the Eye said:
You think it's common for feminists to enjoy rough porn? You're gonna have to give me some explanation here, lol. In so far as I can tell, the majority of feminists are either indifferent to porn or staunchly against it--more the former than the latter.
What about all the feminists who advocate porn as part of sexual empowerment, or who want women not to be ashamed of watching it? The OP refers to the "other side of the schism," as it were, in the 1980s. (As an aside, way more women watch porn than most people think.)
 

Geo Da Sponge

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Clearing the Eye said:
Geo Da Sponge said:
Well what would you rather they called it? A 'surprise sex' fantasy?
God I hate that term.

They should call it what it is--rough sex. It's impossible to want to be raped, because the very definition and spirit of the word are in direct contrast to one's will. Wanting to be roughed up, pushed around or otherwise "used," isn't rape and it's a disservice to real victims and the word to use it.
Ehh, I can see your point and I pretty much agree with it, but I'd rather not push it further. This looks like one of those subjects were any debate eventually breaks down into just trying to convince the other person to accept your defintion of a phrase.
 

Ranylyn

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Colour-Scientist said:
I'm a feminist but I've never taken Dworkin too seriously. Once she argued that the very act of penetration is degrading to women I lost interest in anything she had to say. I'm not saying that this dismisses the argument against pornography as a whole but Dworkin had some very bizarre and hate-fuelled ideas. I think some of her work also promotes the idea that women are, in fact, sexually passive beings which I've never agreed with (that could just be my interpretation of it though).
This. Penetration is not only required for procreation, but women are very sexual beings as well. They don't all need to stop after awhile (though some women say it hurts to keep going past that point, so to each their own) as well as having more areas to stimulate. (Studies have shown that 80% of women can orgasm through nipple stimulation alone, for example.)

A woman who enjoys sex is not an abomination of a male dominated society. She is a living, breathing, human being with her own wants and needs. A woman who has sexual desires is not, by definition, promiscuous. Many happily married women enjoy it with their spouse and no one else - which is the opposite of the definition of words like "slut."

Now, the issue with porn is it more often than not DOES focus on the wants of the man before even the needs of the woman. I once had to write a thesis on branches of the entertainment industry, and my research of adult video showed me things like zero foreplay to arouse the woman with 2/3 of a video being fellatio. This is not right - arousal leads a woman to produce her own lubricant, in a sense, and lack of foreplay can make things rough and even downright painful for her if she doesn't start to enjoy herself really fast, what with that dry friction.

Honestly, the issue comes from the fact that just about any male is bound to watch some porn before they ever have sex. They try to emulate what they see, and well, yeah. This leads to women who "don't like sex" simply since they never had someone treat them properly. And I'm willing to bet that these feminists are in that exact group, if it's a crime for a woman to enjoy herself.

I might be a man, but I do support women as equals and individuals. And as such, there's nothing inherently wrong with the idea of pornography itself. When someone is happy, they want to share that happiness, and studies have even been made into the exhibitionist nature of humans; and how a spectator can actually heighten someone's sexual arousal.

I... I really used to think that it was sexist as hell to tell an irate woman that she needs to get laid. But really. Semen does contain endorphins which act as anti-depressants, and the act of sexual intercourse itself is an amazing stress relief. I'm a firm believer that one should experience something before judging it, and, well... I don't want to be sexist... but... I want to say it... it's like... ugh!
 

Dastardly

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Clearing the Eye said:
Is pornography sexist in nature? Does explicit material encourage or condone a social norm of female objectification and submission? I'm interested to hear (read) your opinions on anything you may feel after reading this.
Yeah, most porn is. It's made for men, sold to men, and built around what men (are perceived to) want. In fact, there are many sub-genres of porn that specifically center on the humiliation and degradation of women. (To be fair, there are others that focus on the humiliation and degradation of men, too, but not nearly as many. And even those are designed to arouse men who like that sort of thing.)

- the (fictionally) taking advantage of drunk women.
- the "female student sleeps with authority figure for leniency/etc."
- the "see (fictionally) random women on the street become prostitutes when we dangle money."
- outright (fictional) rape.
- sexual acts specifically focused on degradation or "ownership rituals" (see: facials)

"Explicit material" itself doesn't encourage this stuff, but many, many examples of explicit material do.

There's also the unfortunate myth that, hey, these are just fantasies, which means they have no real-world consequence. To go one further, some even opine that these provide an outlet for those fantasies, which keeps people from performing them in the real world. This is a ridiculous claim, usually made by people with no understanding as to how the mind works.

The reason these appeal to some men is because they strike a chord with our more "animal" roots -- a lot of mating in the animal kingdom isn't exactly "female friendly." But just because something is "natural" doesn't mean it's preferable, to be encouraged, or even acceptable.

Indulging these fantasies doesn't quell them. It feeds them, or at the very least perpetuates them. Now, will it necessarily feed them to the point that a person tosses aside fear of consequences and acts them out in real life? No. But it definitely contributes in subtle (or not) ways to a person's view of women, sex, and a woman's role in sex.

So yeah, plenty of porn does, in fact, work to perpetuate and inflate many negative views of women. Not every person that watches an example of it turns into a sadistic woman hater or rapist, just like not every bullet fired kills someone. The only reason it happens is money, because people out there are perfectly willing to exploit (and thus abet) current social problems to make a buck.

There's also porn out there that is far less male-centric. The women are not objectified (and neither are the men, you dude that's about to hit Reply). While both the men and women are perhaps idealized examples of the gender, which may display preference for particular aspects of body image, that's an entirely separate matter from gender equality in sex.

_________________________

ASIDE: Where some of the worst degradation has been known to happen is behind the scenes. There are plenty of women in the "sex trade" who felt forced by their circumstances to do whatever they could for money... and in the age of The Internet Never Forgets, there's really no way for them to get out once their faces are known. We, the Public, look down on them for being in the industry, while at the same time we shut any doors that could lead out, for those that really want to.