president Obama congratulates Michael Vick's new boss.

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Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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Obama really shouldn't be congratulating the guy. I mean, not to ignore the question of redemption, but I wish Obama had stayed out of it.

Redemption? Forgiveness? Second chances? He gets a second chance solely because he's a celebrity. It's unlikely people would be so forgiving if he was some random Joe with a normal job. But hey, personally, I think ruining a guy is a pretty poor punishment, as it tends to encourage recidivism. Can I forgive what he's done? Doesn't matter, he needs my forgiveness the way I "need" to watch football. Can he redeem himself? He's never going to find redemption in a sports arena. That's like trying to cure cancer by playing guitar; you can play for charity, you can raise awareness, but the mere act of playing guitar will do nothing for cancer.
 

Eri

The Light of Dawn
Feb 21, 2009
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Sober Thal said:
Eri said:
manythings said:
ON the topic of animals, and the abuse thereof, it's bad but they are just animals and if you think a crime against an animal is equal to a crime against a human congratulations you have zero perspective.
Humans are animals.
Humans are human, while a pet/animal is actually only considered as property in the eyes of the law.

Hence human killing and animal killing aren't equal. To say Humans are animals after that guys quote has no merit in the discussion. Unless you're trying to be flippant. Then congrats on that.

I hate animal cruelty more than I hate human cruelty.
This was my entire point. You can't hate one more than the other, because humans ARE animals. You could hate small furry animal cruelty more than big mostly unfurry animal cruelty, but we're all animals.
 

emeraldrafael

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Well... I know he did have to put money into an account to take care of the dogs involved in the fighting ring. It was court appointed, but still. ANd he does have two Charities. well.. maybe, I'm not sure if they're still up after he went to Prison, but I know he did set two up. I dont know, just saying. I mean, I agree, playing football wont do anything, but he is (or at least was, though i think he would still be involved) in Charities.

Isolda Sage said:
Its not that hard. You just put snip in the quote. Like this:

Looks like this when done properly, though you dont include the spaces or *s
Snip

But on Topic, I'm glad you know Michael Vick personally, so that you can say with absolutely certainty that he "enjoyed it." Since you do, and you didnt testify, thats called accessory in the legal court. Just so you know. Anyhting else is slander, or libel, though I think its slander since you're saying it and not publish writing it. Both of course are illegal and punishable by fine and perhaps jail time, depending how much the Judge hates you.

ANd Personally, and this is just me, you really shouldnt talk about this man's short comings. The thread has gotten so off topic since we're digging up the man's past, and this is about Obama's action, not Vick's. BUt you didnt know about the case until it was publicized, and there are so many worse things in the NFL (as pointed out, there's a convicted Murderer and a convicted wife beater). So maybe he is playing a violent sport, but its been a few years since, and he hasnt regressed. So I dont see anything wrong with Obama congratulating the coach. Sure, maybe its Celebrity, but its what the President does, he makes these little appearance things. Its what any president does. People just complain when Obama does it cause they dont agree with his policies (and thats good for you if you odnt. I didnt agree with Bush's policies, but I dont criticize him for making the highest NHL team point wise the "president's choice" or when he goes out and throws the opening pitch for the baseball game). You're just complaining because this man was associated with a dog ring. And you should be, but that doesnt mean this man should be hanged, or killed with fire, or sent to the deepest lake of ice in Hell.

Nor should you complain that Obama is congratulating the coach. He's giving a feel good story. Would you rather hear about the rapes, murders, deaths, arsons, and thefts int he world? Or all the people who were killed in war? People like a feel good story on something they can all relate to. In this case its about a rehibilitated man who is playing (American) football, working off his debts, and turning his life around. He knows he'll have this hang over his head for all his life. He doenst need a constant reminder of it. Let the man go, let him be happy and live his life, just get past. Its not like he denies this stuff.

Now in regards to my friend's dogs (which i dont even know why I should talk about it since it was an example) no, they dont need training. Its something that happened once, and we handled it. The dog loves his neice (now four), and is insanely protective of her and the two are best friends. It was just the toy, something about it woke up something in the dog's subconscious. We're not going to train it never to growl, this is a dog that is used for home defense. Its taught to leap, not to fight. Taught to bark, not to bite. you odnt hit a dog until it growls and bites and gets aggressive then get aggressive back and teach it not to be aggressive and defend itself just so you can hit it more. So dont tell me to tell my friend how to raise his dogs, when he's been doing it for 8 years now, and has lived with them for 15 (he's 18). There's no reason you cant have a guard dog and a loving pet.
 

Isolda Sage

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I am really disheartened by the number of "they're just dogs" responses. Let's face it if a human and a dog were drowning in front of you and you for what ever reason could only save one of them reasonable people would save the human.
Having said that there is still absolutely NO EXCUSE for what Michael Vick and the utter scum bags at Bad Newz Kennels did! THEY TOOK GREAT PLEASURE in what they did. They were motivated by both money and a sick enjoyment of dog fighting and the TORTURE of animals! You people who seem to not be bothered by that are bringing on some serious misanthropy. I think you are just wrong!
 

emeraldrafael

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Isolda Sage said:
I am really disheartened by the number of "they're just dogs" responses. Let's face it if a human and a dog were drowning in front of you and you for what ever reason could only save one of them reasonable people would save the human.
Having said that there is still absolutely NO EXCUSE for what Michael Vick and the utter scum bags at Bad Newz Kennels did! THEY TOOK GREAT PLEASURE in what they did. They were motivated by both money and a sick enjoyment of dog fighting and the TORTURE of animals! You people who seem to not be bothered by that are bringing on some serious misanthropy. I think you are just wrong!
thats great the way you think, but you're an animal lover. Just accept that some people dont think as highly about animals as you. Its sad and its wrong but its a fact of life. You're not going to change opinions, and everytime you say that, it has the same effect on you as when people say 'dogs are just animals'. It doesnt meant they're not bothered, just that they dont as highly of this as you, or that they're willing to forgive. Obama's not giving him (vick) a medal for dog fighting, or even a medal for him at all. If you cleaned out all the people that committed crime int he NFL or any sport, you'd be down a lot of players.

I'm not saying you're wrong to think that way, but you're wrong to push your opinion on everyone else.
 

Isolda Sage

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emeraldrafael

Snip
Wow! I've really offended you. I certainly didn't mean to! It seemed to me that the incident was more serious in your first post. My bad. My point was that you shouldn't have to keep an eye on them.
I'm not sure how my saying that they enjoyed torturing the dogs was any more presumptuous than you saying they were simply motivated by greed. If they did not enjoy torturing the animals to death, what would be the reason they did it? They could have just taken them out back and shot them if they wanted yo "get rid of them".
EDIT: That is what is more than likely to happen in that world. This is the first time I have heard of such torture going on.
 

lemiel14n3

happiness is a warm gun
Mar 18, 2010
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I've got a lot of things to say about Vick, some good some bad.
First, as a Philly native myself I can say that he's evidence that if you play sports well in Philadelphia, you can be forgiven for anything.
Second his reintegration into society is something of a figurehead for the redemptive, or rather, rehabilitative ability of jail. the basic logic going, that if he did his time and he still can't be a good, contributing member of society, that there's no point to jail, because no one thinks it works. In a broader stroke, if Michael Vick can't play football again after going to jail, just make the death penalty the standard.

I think Vick should be able to play, he did his time, give the man a chance. should he own dogs again? Probably not right away, but give him a chance, maybe have someone check in on him and any dogs he may have as part of his parole.
 

Danish rage

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Look a how all the bible fans line up talking second chances. It´s you´re fault, and you´re fault alone the world is a sewer.
 

Isolda Sage

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emeraldrafael said:
I didn't realize I was pushing that hard. i have seen people get a lot more hostile on here. I just think the president should have stayed out of it. Maybe I am on a moral horse but I would argue that it is only a Shetland Pony :) I have made a lot of mistakes in my life but you do not have to get that high off the ground to be above the boys ay bad news kennel.
 

Isolda Sage

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lemiel14n3 said:
I've got a lot of things to say about Vick, some good some bad.
First, as a Philly native myself I can say that he's evidence that if you play sports well in Philadelphia, you can be forgiven for anything.
Second his reintegration into society is something of a figurehead for the redemptive, or rather, rehabilitative ability of jail. the basic logic going, that if he did his time and he still can't be a good, contributing member of society, that there's no point to jail, because no one thinks it works. In a broader stroke, if Michael Vick can't play football again after going to jail, just make the death penalty the standard.

I think Vick should be able to play, he did his time, give the man a chance. should he own dogs again? Probably not right away, but give him a chance, maybe have someone check in on him and any dogs he may have as part of his parole.
You make some fair points. In my mind he did not do enough time and in my mind he's just not a good person. Period. I am not arguing that he should never work again. I DO NOT think that Obama should have made the call! I just don't!
 

lemiel14n3

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Mar 18, 2010
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Isolda Sage said:
You make some fair points. In my mind he did not do enough time and in my mind he's just not a good person. Period. I am not arguing that he should never work again. I DO NOT think that Obama should have made the call! I just don't!
And I agree with you on that, although I suspect it is for a different reason. I just don't think it's as big a deal as all that, certainly not something that deserves the time of the President of the United States. Obama wouldn't call the manager of a supermarket if they rehired an ex-con to staff the deli (although that could be rather brave of them, putting him next to all those knives.)
 

emeraldrafael

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Isolda Sage said:
Um.... no, no quite how you snip. Let me show you instead.

Oka, I just quotes you, so to snip, what you do it hit the quote then take everyhting the person said and replace it with snip. So I go from this:

Isolda Sage said:
emeraldrafael

Snip
Wow! I've really offended you. I certainly didn't mean to! It seemed to me that the incident was more serious in your first post. My bad. My point was that you shouldn't have to keep an eye on them.
I'm not sure how my saying that they enjoyed torturing the dogs was any more presumptuous than you saying they were simply motivated by greed. If they did not enjoy torturing the animals to death, what would be the reason they did it? They could have just taken them out back and shot them if they wanted yo "get rid of them".
To this:
Isolda Sage said:
Just put it between the two sets of bracketed information. the [* quote=stuff *]Snip[/* stuff *], removing the spaces and *s of course. BUt you're getting close, I will credit you that.

Now, back to your post:
Greed is the reason to do it. Greed/need to make mony is a powerful force, and in the by and large makes the world go round. yes, some may have enjoyed it, but you cant say for certain Vick did out of enjoyment. You can say it was in part due to money, because that was one of the allegations brought up against him was running the bets. BUt the rest is to insult his character.

Now, obviously the persons involved didnt just want to get rid of the dogs. They wanted them to fight, wanted them to make money because the trainers wnated to make money. This wasnt about killing the dog, this was about getting money. Its like cock fights, or male beta fish fights, or any animal fights of course. SO it wasnt just they wanted to be rid of them. They wanted money. Which goes back to my thing about Greed.

ANd no.. you didnt really offend me. I just dont like when people criticize his training style. He (we) dont have to watch the dogs around his family or friends that they know. Just when its a stranger, or when something as rare as what his niece did happens. They're intimidating dogs if you dont know them, you have to admit,a nd they will chase you cause thy think its a game. He (we) let(s) them chase him (us) and tackle him (us), but its all in good fun and they know not to attack or bite. They just think its playing and strangers/first timers dont get that.
 

Kortney

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Nov 2, 2009
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Everyone deserves a second chance.

By the way I find it really strange how some people consider dog fighting (which, don't get me wrong, is utterly horrendous) to be more severe than murder. Really, really beats me.

Anyway, I think what this man did was downright disgusting but I do believe in redemption and trust - it's a natural part of my nature. There is no reason why this man can not have another shot in life after doing his time.

Take all that with a grain of salt, as I am not American and I know only the basics about the incident.
 

Isolda Sage

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lemiel14n3 said:
Isolda Sage said:
You make some fair points. In my mind he did not do enough time and in my mind he's just not a good person. Period. I am not arguing that he should never work again. I DO NOT think that Obama should have made the call! I just don't!
And I agree with you on that, although I suspect it is for a different reason. I just don't think it's as big a deal as all that, certainly not something that deserves the time of the President of the United States. Obama wouldn't call the manager of a supermarket if they rehired an ex-con to staff the deli (although that could be rather brave of them, putting him next to all those knives.)
Actually you're right. In a way it is not a big enough deal for the president to comment on. Sure it makes me angry!!! However, if he had called to scold the guy I would still wonder why he felt the need to insert himself in the situation. Seems the man can only win with me by sticking to more "pesidential" matters.
 

Kortney

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Isolda Sage said:
Actually you're right. In a way it is not a big enough deal for the president to comment on. Sure it makes me angry!!! However, if he had called to scold the guy I would still wonder why he felt the need to insert himself in the situation. Seems the man can only win with me by sticking to more "pesidential" matters.
America is supposed to be a Christian nation. What Obama did was emphasise the need for forgiveness and personal redemption, two Christian values. Don't see how he did anything wrong there. He was not condoning Vick's behaviour in the slightest.
 

Isolda Sage

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emeraldrafael said:
Honestly I didn't even mean to criticize. I was just concerned. Having an aggressive dog around children is like having a grenade in the house.(EDIT: I misunderstood and did not mean to come off as arrogant)
On the Vick thing maybe you didn't read about what all they did. The dogs that didn't/couldn't fight well were electrocuted or hanged. They were tortured to death. It was pretty horrific behavior even for dog fighters.
 

fletch_talon

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Nov 6, 2008
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BobDobolina said:
fletch_talon said:
Decent human beings > Animals > Animal abusers
Agreeable. I assume you propose to take the heads of all agribusiness companies into custody immediately, given that they're animal abusers on a vastly larger scale than Vick was. Amirite?
And I guess your reading comprehension is insufficient for you to read the whole post.
Amirite?

Maybe next time, especially if you plan to be an arrogant wanker, you should read the part of my post which has me talking about people who harm animals for "shits and giggles". Stands to reason that, in my eyes at least, abuse only applies to those who have no legitimate reason for harming animals.

There is a big difference between killing an animal for food/defence and killing for personal enjoyment.

emeraldrafael said:
I stated that violence against other people can have a reason, what I should have said was they have a legitimate cause. A man can attack another man because he slept with his wife, its not reasonable, its not excuseable, but he was provoked to do so. Animal abuse is not commited because the animal did anything, its done because the abuser enjoys causing pain to a living creature.

The first instance shows a lack of restraint. The second shows a sadistic streak and zero concern for life in general. After all, an animal feels pain the same way humans do: they bleed, they "cry" and so on. If someone enjoys seeing an animal in pain, it takes very little to imagine them finding the same enjoyment in the pain of another human. Quite possibly the only thing stopping them from abusing humans is that another person can more readily fight back, not to mention the law often doesn't seem to take animal abuse with the degree of seriousness that it deserves.

As for the dogs being bred for aggression...
No shit, who do you think had them bred and trained that way? It still comes back to the scumbags who we are referring to as animal abusers. Its foolish to say that animal abuse is warranted because the animals were made aggressive through a form of animal abuse.

I'm all for having the dogs put down as they are too dangerous to be adopted. Putting them down is the humane solution to the problem.

gkid87 said:
People are more important i would take a bullet for my nephews but a dog could get shot for all i care because i will protect a human life over that of a fucking dog every chance i get.
Way to read the post mate.
I'll simplify it for you. If you abuse an animal, you don't get to complain about your life being "ruined" (by fines, prison time or losing your job) when your idea of a good time is torturing animals.
 

Lt. Vinciti

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Micheal Vick should have been banned from the NFL

OR

Like real life he should have worked his ass back to NFL status....made him coach a little league or something....

I dont let you out of jail for rape to work in Victoria's Secret....ok thats bad...


HOW ABOUT...We let Bernie Madoff out and let him run the banks?
 

jp201

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Lt. Vinciti said:
Micheal Vick should have been banned from the NFL

OR

Like real life he should have worked his ass back to NFL status....made him coach a little league or something....

I dont let you out of jail for rape to work in Victoria's Secret....ok thats bad...


HOW ABOUT...We let Bernie Madoff out and let him run the banks?

You realize the NFL has nothing to do with caring for dogs right? so trying to make that kind of correlation doesn't work.

But i like the idea. Have michael vick run an animal shelter.

I;m fine with Obama supporting Vick.