Protein World: "Body Positivity" and a lesson on how not to motivate people

[DrWut]

Yes, it always insisted that. thats because its hardwired by evolution. Fat people are worse partners to extend genes due to being less healthy on average.

Just check out this hot beauty from the stone age!

ps. You do realize that evolution literally means that things aren't hardwired and change over time...

What always get me about that is that they clearly had a model when creating it. Look at those boob folds. There was someone in the stone age who was as fat as that and I always wonder how the fuck they managed.

 

[Kathinka]

Yes, it always insisted that. thats because its hardwired by evolution. Fat people are worse partners to extend genes due to being less healthy on average.

Just check out this hot beauty from the stone age!

ps. You do realize that evolution literally means that things aren't hardwired and change over time...

Just wanna jump in here and mention that this was a religious or ritual idol and isn't necessarily an example of what was or wasn't considered attractive in prehistoric days. What is attractive and what is not pretty much IS hard wired into our brains, which makes a lot of sense evolutionary, if you think about it. Wanting your partner to be healthy (and a healthy weight is a strong indicator) makes perfect biological sense.

Right, carry on.

 

[Pax Romana]

This company should not have had this kind of attitude to be sure, it won't help their situation and just add to the amount of people hopping on the bandwagon to go after them. That being said when you are being criticised by a ''feminist'' for whatever perceived slight she has with your ad campaign to sell supplements the best thing to do is simply ignore her, engaging people like that will never end amicably unless you completely bend to their demands. That is the nature of the liberal after all.

To qualify why this annoys me, I spend 5 days a week in the gym for 2 hours a day if you include the time for a shower afterwards. I cook all my meals in advance for 3 days at a time and prepare my supplements. I have been interested in bodybuilding for years but all this is expensive and time consuming. If I can do this working full time then anyone can so I dont accept all these excuses from people about no time or whatever. If you really want it you can have it but its hard and tiring and a long struggle. That being said I don't expect everyone to be like that and I dont see anything wrong with not being willing to commit but that doesnt mean you get to complain that you feel crappy because other people are in better shape. And that is essentially what the complaint is here people dont want to be reminded that they are in bad shape. A physique is a symbol of hard work and dedication which is why it is desirable. It cant be borrowed or bought and is a testament to hard work.

My girlfriend is the same as me only she has competed in bikini competitions. The prep for these is difficult and the cardio/dieting is arduous. So she and the girls she knows are the unrealistic expectations made realistic, because they have made a very serious commitment. She has a 6 pack and legs larger than and more muscular than most men I know. She receives far more shaming than anyone I have ever met. People have called her a Barbie, assumed she is stupid, that she is obsessed with all that and shallow. The people who do this are ALWAYS in poor shape and clearly are just making themselves feel better. Ironically one critic in particular who she works with is a proper little feminist but sees nothing wrong in constantly judging the women around her.

 

[zidine100]

*sigh*

This company sell's pills that they advertise as "Fat melter's".

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

And why should they not respond? Why would anyone expect hostility to be met with silence or politeness? This is the part that I don't understand. If I go to somebody in the street and start rambling about how I fucking hate X about them and they are sexists and terrible people I would expect the other guy to be angry and defend himself from my accusations. What I would never do is act shocked that he didn't just ignore me or apologize right away.

I mean where I come from we would (I edit to add that it was like 18th, 19th Century not now, lol) immediatly go outside and stab each other to death for much less. People these days expect to insult anybody with no consequence.

The point you're missing is epic. This was not a personal insult. This was a comedian on Twitter blowing their stack over an ad. If you give that sort of behaviour the satisfaction of a response of any kind you just encourage it.

At any rate, again, this wasn't a personal insult. This was one person on twitter calling out a company for an ad. The company could have replied in a myriad of ways that were professional like just by saying "We're sorry you feel that way, and we think you're reading too much into our ad." Better yet they could have basically ignored someone obviously reading too much into an ad and playing the sexism card. Because all the tweet was was a cry for attention from someone who apparently doesn't deserve it.

What Protein World actually did is just about the most dumbass move any company could do for PR. They turned around and responded in a way that made them look like dickheads and alienated at least a portion of the target audience for their ad. The unprofessional move was not only childish, it was also drew far more attention than the whole thing merits. Even so as an American where Duelling was in practice until the 20th century, even when it was illegal, nobody would care if you objected to an ad back then. Because it's an ad. Hell even in the wild west if someone was offended by an ad and stated their offended stance, no one would give a damn.

TLR - Being offended at an advertisement and vocal about it is not the same as insulting someone.

 

[Hagi]

Just wanna jump in here and mention that this was a religious or ritual idol and isn't necessarily an example of what was or wasn't considered attractive in prehistoric days. What is attractive and what is not pretty much IS hard wired into our brains, which makes a lot of sense evolutionary, if you think about it. Wanting your partner to be healthy (and a healthy weight is a strong indicator) makes perfect biological sense.

Right, carry on.

It's generally considered a fertility idol. Possessing all the properties that, at that time, where considered to be indicative of a highly fertile women. This includes a lot of fat to ensure sufficient nutrients for the child even in times of great hardship.

Having the means to ensure a very constant supply of food is historically and evolutionary speaking a very recent event. Ancient humans, as well as many other mammals, fatten up in times of plenty (spring, summer) in order to build up reserves for times of hardship (fall, winter). Having great reserves (AKA fat) was a sign of health, it meant you were going to survive the year. A rather more important fact to procreation than living to old age.

And again, there's absolutely no such thing as hardwired. If there were we'd be getting massively aroused by hot orgies like this:

 

[Cowabungaa]

It's only radical because that is how your mind is made up about it.

With "radical" he probably refers to losing weight through a crash-diet with special shakes and odd rules and whatnot. What you did is 'just' change your regular diet which already makes a huge change. Coupled with exercise and you'll see fantastic change. Weight loss is remarkably simple to achieve. Not easy, because you have to change a lot of habits, but complicated it is not.

The problem with such diets is converting them into long-term habitual change. And that's exactly what leads to long-term weight loss.

I'm in support of "body positivity" and "fat acceptance" because that's just how some people are happy.

Yet I can't fully morally condone the acceptance part (posivity, sure) as it is very clear that the obesity epidemic is having a very real and very harmful impact on many Western nations. It's why I struggle to find a good way to motivate people like my girlfriend to live healthily, snack less and exercise more. Because yes, body positivity is a good thing, but neither can I support an unhealthy lifestyle.

I'm concerned for her, seeing her wheeze when we have to bike uphill for a bit to go to my local boardgame café really sucks. Not to mention the increased risk for diabetes, certain types of cancer, heart disease, you name it. I wouldn't want for her to go through any of that, even remotely.

Of course the way Protein World does it can fuck right off. Whether someone follows a standard of beauty or not is completely irrelevant.

 

[Fieldy409_v1legacy]

As a side note, to nobody in particular; I believe that weight loss should be encouraged for a healthy lifestyle, not for some idea of beauty. (Maybe the commercial had gone over a bit better if they'd done that instead. Note: "a bit". There'd still be people complaining because that's what people do)
You should lose weight for your sake as well, not just for somebody else. But that's mainly because I happen to think that "being fat" is not synonymous with "being ugly".

I like this part. Ive been 120kgs, I had no muscle and was weak, skinny fat, the worst kind of fat. I lost over 40kgs and went down to 78kg on a ketogenic diet(it may not be the healthiest diet in the world but gawddamn it burns fat!) The trick was staying lean once you leave your diet, if you dont know how to eat to support the calories your new bodymass needs you will probably gain weight, I went back up to 100kgs but luckily I had also started weightlifting and working as a labourer so judging by my strength now Ive probably got a great muscular body hiding under a layer of fat. You know what, I think being strong has done FAR more for my self esteem than being 78kgs skinny did. Its a lot better than being skinny fat too let me tell you! Id like to go back down to somewhere around 90 or 85kgs now but im trying to do it a lot healthier than a crash diet this time(which is SO MUCH HARDER! Not eating is easy!).

Im starting to ramble a bit but heres something I need to say, once youve been fat your body will probably never be beautiful by societies standards anyway when you are naked so dont do it for that or you will never be happy. Ive got stretch marks all over and loose skin, If I go into pushup position without a shirt my guts and manboobs hang down in an unflattering way because of all that skin. Maybe I could go and pay thousands of dollars for them to cut the skin off but im far too lazy. Im not nearly as bad as some of those guys with the skin hanging off them on youtube but its still not manhunk material. Dont do it for that, do it so you can breathe when you bend over, so you can live to see your grandkids, so your knees dont give out of you, for your heart, to prevent diabetes etc.

But I dont give a fuck anymore, Ill walk around in public at the beach without a shirt on, because I just dont care about the looks anymore. Exercising hits a point when you do it long enough where it goes from being a chore to being a joy. I love how people who dont know what I can do are shocked when they see me go twice as fast as most dudes on the shovel or hammer at work, or when Im at the gym lifting weights and I get under the bar and outsquat the ripped dudes and shock them, yes this fat nerdy guy can lift!

Im so glad I stopped thinking I was useless at physical activities, I discovered that I was never built to run a mile, Im built to be strong. Different stuff works for different people, but everyone seems to be obsessed with cardio, all they make you do back in phys ed at school was cardio, cardio cardio, and I could have grown old and died thinking I was no good at any kind of physical activity because I wasnt good at those things. Im so glad I found out what I could do with my body before I got too old.


?No man has the right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training. It is a shame for a man to grow old without seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable.?

― Socrates

 

[SweetShark]

Yes, it always insisted that. thats because its hardwired by evolution. Fat people are worse partners to extend genes due to being less healthy on average.

Just check out this hot beauty from the stone age!

ps. You do realize that evolution literally means that things aren't hardwired and change over time...

Clearly a Hipster, because she is wearing a Winter Cap as well.
Hipster never follow the mainstream, so evolution didn't touch her.

 

[Kathinka]

snip]

ahh some sweet fossil porn!

Anyway, the notion that overweight people were seen as a beauty ideal is often spouted in body acceptance circles, but the actual scientific community is at worst skeptical, at best divided on the notion. For example, during the bronze age in the Mediterranean regions, when death by starvation was still a very real prospect for many people, skinny was sexy. It is speculated that this is because a healthy (not starved) skinny person indicated wealth. "I don't need fat reserves! My food supply is ample and secured!"

The notion that attraction to certain markers aren't hardwired, at least in part, is very easily disproved. It's one of the key mechanics of evolution in humans (and other species of course). There is literally libraries worth of science written on the subject, I suggest you read around a bit.

 

[DrWut]

And why should they not respond? Why would anyone expect hostility to be met with silence or politeness? This is the part that I don't understand. If I go to somebody in the street and start rambling about how I fucking hate X about them and they are sexists and terrible people I would expect the other guy to be angry and defend himself from my accusations. What I would never do is act shocked that he didn't just ignore me or apologize right away.

I mean where I come from we would (I edit to add that it was like 18th, 19th Century not now, lol) immediatly go outside and stab each other to death for much less. People these days expect to insult anybody with no consequence.

The point you're missing is epic. This was not a personal insult. This was a comedian on Twitter blowing their stack over an ad. If you give that sort of behaviour the satisfaction of a response of any kind you just encourage it.

At any rate, again, this wasn't a personal insult. This was one person on twitter calling out a company for an ad. The company could have replied in a myriad of ways that were professional like just by saying "We're sorry you feel that way, and we think you're reading too much into our ad." Better yet they could have basically ignored someone obviously reading too much into an ad and playing the sexism card. Because all the tweet was was a cry for attention from someone who apparently doesn't deserve it.

What Protein World actually did is just about the most dumbass move any company could do for PR. They turned around and responded in a way that made them look like dickheads and alienated at least a portion of the target audience for their ad. The unprofessional move was not only childish, it was also drew far more attention than the whole thing merits. Even so as an American where Duelling was in practice until the 20th century, even when it was illegal, nobody would care if you objected to an ad back then. Because it's an ad. Hell even in the wild west if someone was offended by an ad and stated their offended stance, no one would give a damn.

TLR - Being offended at an advertisement and vocal about it is not the same as insulting someone.

"Calling out" is usually an outright attack on a company. It is a "corporate" insult. I have seen this go down before, you start with a tweet like that, the retweeting starts and the next day the usual clickbaity sites are running stories on how this horrible company is sexist and is promoting rape culture and is problematic or any other buzzword salad you want. Remember Matt Taylor and his stupid shirt? PR attacks are a thing these days.

Moreover, even in this thread the position that the ad is somehow sexist or whateverist has been defended several times. So it is not clear that "nobody takes that seriously". In fact there is already a hashtag campaign and people painting over ads. And it's not because of the tone of the response, a polite response would have elicited EXACTLY the same behavior, as would ignoring them.

The problem, and let's see if I can express this properly, is that "being the bigger person" is great, but it is not a default position or anybody's obligation. And too many people are taking offense as if the people from protein world were responding to THEM instead of two random bored people.

Can you say it's a bad PR move? Sure, perhaps, although given the current environment with Twitter outrage mobs they are also going to earn a lot of sympathy for standing up to the offendatrons. Maybe they know their customer base.

 

[Hagi]

snip]

ahh some sweet fossil porn!

Anyway, the notion that overweight people were seen as a beauty ideal is often spouted in body acceptance circles, but the actual scientific community is at worst skeptical, at best divided on the notion. For example, during the bronze age in the Mediterranean regions, when death by starvation was still a very real prospect for many people, skinny was sexy. It is speculated that this is because a healthy (not starved) skinny person indicated wealth. "I don't need fat reserves! My food supply is ample and secured!"

The notion that attraction to certain markers aren't hardwired, at least in part, is very easily disproved. It's one of the key mechanics of evolution in humans (and other species of course). There is literally libraries worth of science written on the subject, I suggest you read around a bit.

There's also plentiful evidence, even in societies today, of fat being considered both attractive as well as a sign of wealth and health. To note, fat doesn't immediately mean morbidly obese. Rather, look at some of Peter Paul Rubens' paintings. Featuring many women with notable amounts of fat.

Spoiler: For example, this is his depiction of Venus, the godess of love, beauty, sex and desire (note: slightly NSFW)

Not exactly what one would consider thin. Certainly not obese, but a far stretch of from the mentioned beach body.

In fact there's absolutely no shortage at all of art depicting Venus and other figures meant to represent beauty and sexuality depicted as rather more full-figured throughout the ages. Nor is there any shortage of other types of accounts and research confirming the same.

Namely, that there's a notable amount of variety in what's considered sexually attractive that changes over time depending on circumstances. Sometimes thin, sometimes more full-figured. Just like pretty much everything else in a naturally evolved species that adapts to it's environment and is in possession of various mechanics, both between as well as within generations, to allow the greatest amount of flexibility in order to deal with changing circumstances.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

I'm in support of "body positivity" and "fat acceptance" because that's just how some people are happy.

Yet I can't fully morally condone the acceptance part (posivity, sure) as it is very clear that the obesity epidemic is having a very real and very harmful impact on many Western nations. It's why I struggle to find a good way to motivate people like my girlfriend to live healthily, snack less and exercise more. Because yes, body positivity is a good thing, but neither can I support an unhealthy lifestyle.

I'm concerned for her, seeing her wheeze when we have to bike uphill for a bit to go to my local boardgame café really sucks. Not to mention the increased risk for diabetes, certain types of cancer, heart disease, you name it. I wouldn't want for her to go through any of that, even remotely.

Of course the way Protein World does it can fuck right off. Whether someone follows a standard of beauty or not is completely irrelevant.

First of all I can't morally condone people hurting them selves, and obesity can generally be summed up as that. I also can't morally condone people being so deeply invested in another person's business, at least when it has nothing to do with them. Motivating the people you care about of course doesn't fall in to the realm of "it's none of my business." I still have issues with society where people feel the need to constantly force themselves into a stranger's business. If someone has unhealthy habits and they're not some one you know, you're being a Fascist if you try to intervene. It's also important to say here that you try to motivate people you do personally know, rather than people who try to force the fact.

One big thing to me is that I'm view very skeptically the idea of epidemic levels of obesity, and most of the statistics that are thrown around. There are two contributing factors, one is when I hear that 60% of Americans are obese. I don't see a majority of people who exhibit obesity in my daily life, even in places like fast food restaurants and stores like even say Wal*Mart. So that strikes me as suspicious. Another thing is that panic mongering has become the accepted method of getting academic grants for scientific studies. If you can apply urgency to a scientific study you want funded, by adjusting confidence numbers in a statistic to make it seem worse than it is, you'll get the money.

While I do agree that I don't want anybody to be at increased health risks, and that the obese are putting an extra burden on society... It's also their business and not mine, unless they specifically ask me for help.

 

[Kathinka]

snip[/spoiler]

Sure, there is some variety in what was considered ideal over the time, no one is disputing that. But it's always within some pounds, and a far fetch from obesity = attractive. A healthy weight (with a few pounds variety in what was considered the most attractive) was always what was seen as the most pleasing.

Now there's nothing wrong with weighting however much as long as your doctor tells you it isn't a problem, and feeling good about yourself. But it's not right to try and make people feel bad for being attracted to lean and skinny people. (Not saying you are, but some people certainly operate that way in this thread.)

 

[DrWut]

I think the largest logical error I have seen regarding this add is claiming that if I say that being thin and strong is good I am saying being fat is horrible and shaming all fat people and saying they should not go to the beach. Expressing one's aesthetic preferences is not condemning people who don't fit them.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

I think the largest logical error I have seen regarding this add is claiming that if I say that being thin and strong is good I am saying being fat is horrible and shaming all fat people and saying they should not go to the beach. Expressing one's aesthetic preferences is not condemning people who don't fit them.

Yeah that is generally the case. There is a large population on tumblr and twitter who thrive on making something out of nothing. Finding insult where there is none. Shouting down people who disagree with them. The sad part of this, when someone has a legitimate issue it gets kicked down as SJW stuff because of how much social outrage there is over every little thing.

Still Protein World's PR behavior was idiotic in the extreme. Buying in is exactly how they get you.

 

[Hagi]

Sure, there is some variety in what was considered ideal over the time, no one is disputing that. But it's always within some pounds, and a far fetch from obesity = attractive. A healthy weight (with a few pounds variety in what was considered the most attractive) was always what was seen as the most pleasing.

Now there's nothing wrong with weighting however much as long as your doctor tells you it isn't a problem, and feeling good about yourself. But it's not right to try and make people feel bad for being attracted to lean and skinny people. (Not saying you are, but some people certainly operate that way in this thread.)

Well, just like some people certainly are trying to make people feel bad about being attracted to lean and skinny people the original post I was commenting on certainly was saying that there wasn't any variety in what was considered ideal over time. That attraction to lean and skinny was in fact hardwired and a constant in the human species.

But yeah, I would agree that, generally speaking, people are attracted to a healthy weight taking some variety into account, both in taste as well as what's healthy weight given living styles.

I'm mainly against the notion that somehow evolution has magically stopped since the stone age and that we now have set-in-stone tastes, preferences and instincts than can be fully explained from a modern-day retrospective of what we believe hunter-gatherer society was like (which is somehow magically 100% accurate). AKA evolutionary psychology.

Reality, including human sexuality and attraction, is a tad bit more complicated than that.

But I do believe we're mostly in agreement. Absolutely nothing wrong with being, or being attracted to, someone a few pounds over ideal weight. Nor anything wrong with being, or being attracted to, someone a few pounds below ideal weight. Just don't go into crazy extremes either way.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Yes because it's not like transpanic leads to trans people being beaten and killed... Oh wait.

Good lord, the amount of people that still unironically uses this same fucking argument is staggering to say the least. This is the problem I have with 'implications', you need to really take them with a grain of salt since everyone is going to see them differently. If your entire argument is one based on implications alone than your argument is one without any actual evidence.

I'm not saying that the joke lead to actual violence. But as a trans person I can see exactly why the trans community took offence to it. It's a sensitive issue, in no small part because being trans makes you a target just because you're trans.