RANT: Weapons on your back

[WaReloaded]

Fucking magnets....

But you do have a point. I just don't think it's THAT big of a deal.

I'm with Tomster on this one. Your point is more than valid but to me it isn't that big of a deal.
E.g. When I played WoW, I much preferred looking at massive, unrealistic weapons basically floating on my character's back than merely worrying about how unrealistic it all was. Besides, I was immersed by the game itself and its massive size, not the way in which my character wielded his sword/axe.

 

[Danzaivar]

It bugged me like mad how in Assassin's Creed, weapons all had a sheathe that they went in. Then in AC2 it's back to magic glue again. Never mind how the knife went from a badass back holster to a generic side one next to the sword.

Even if you wore the Altair outfit!

 

[Super Toast]

Couldn't agree more. Thing is, it's a game. It doesn't HAVE to make sense.

I hate that argument. I really, really do.

OT: Yeah, it's a major annoyance to me too. Scabbard's exist for a reason.

 

[Platypusbill101]

It does not really bother me. But what about big weapons, like claymores? Is there a way to carry them in a way other than putting them on your back? I figure it would be easier to carry a large weapon on your back.

 

[Continuity]

Its nice when a game goes for realism but not all games have to do this, in fact most shouldn't. Games are about an escape from reality, where the world rules are there to enhance our enjoyment rather than just arbitrarily as a fact of nature.

 

[Sarge034]

I've said this before, it is minor, very minor, but it seems like the genre could do without, making it even better.

I ask again, if this is so minor why make a thread about it?

Try talking to the other posters around, because I've gotten over this many days ago.

Now why would I reply to them? They did not make the thread.


Piece of advise. Don't start a rant thread if you can't handle the counter-"rant".

 

[Christian Lerche]

Spoiler: Epic arguement of win

...I would suggest that the concept and application is not as far-fetched as it seems...

OK, let's think about that. How far-fetched does it seem? I don't think s.ob.'s are as far-fetched as, say, unicorns. Back-scabbards are definitely within the realm of "physically possible". It is possible to wear a sword on your back, & it is possible to draw it from such a scabbard, & I suppose that if you really practiced alot, & were very, very careful, you could even put the sword back into the back-scabbard. So it's not impossible. We know it's possible because we see it in movies ALL THE TIME (& we know it's not cgi), and lots of SCA-types have some kind of back-scabbard.

Then why don't we see it in illustrations? Why can't I google "back scabbard" and see a picture of one in something other than a bad movie, the He-Man cartoon, or a D&D manual? How come the BEST we can do is two vague (and arguably not very credible) references on Wikipedia? If back-scabbards were anywhere close to anything resembling practical, and was "a personal choice for the few among the majority", then we should see a few (10%, 5%, or even 1%) examples in things like the Bayeux Tapestry. We should see back-scabbards appearing regularly....not often, but sometimes. But we don't see them 1% of the time. We don't see them 1/100 of 1% of the time.

When we take note of that, how far-fetched DO they seem?

The implication is clear: while it's possible to wear a sword on your back, wearing one on the hip is objectively better. In every way it is objectively better. The sword is easier & faster to draw, easier and faster to replace, & it's easier & faster to put the belt on & take it off. It's also probably easier & faster to make a sword-belt than a back-baldric. Maybe it's not even better by a lot, but it's better by enough so that virtually no one ever chose to carry a sword sheathed on their back.

The only advantage to a back-scabbard is: it looks totally ninja.

I mean, how hard would it be for soldiers, government agents, police, & rednecks to make a "back-holster" for their pistols? (& I mean an over-the-shoulder back-holster just like a back-scabbard for a sword, not an underarm holster or small-of-the-back holster or anything like that) It's definitely possible. Maybe someone's even made one. You know how gun-people are. They love making custom accessories for their pieces....& there's lots of examples of innovative custom holsters out there, so I bet if we looked hard enough we could find an over-the-shoulder back-holster for a pistol.

Regardless....if an alien or time-traveler or whatever (who was making an RPG about Information Age Earthling humans) showed me his costume design, & it had a pistol back-holster, I'd be perfectly comfortable saying, "That's all wrong. No one ever did that. Pistols were never worn on the back like that. That's pure fantasy - you might think it looks cool, but it's sort of stupid. Just put the gun on the hip"

So in answer to the question, "how far-fetched do back-scabbards seem"? They seem about as far-fetched as a back-holster for a pistol - far-fetched enough that we see no GOOD evidence for them.




EDIT: I should have thought of this sooner. The back scabbard seems more far-fetched than the Hollywood cowboy fast-draw holster, which is known to be Pure Hollywood. That's where it ranks on the Scale of Far-Fetchedness.

Now that I'm thinking about it, Fast-Draw Holster vs. Regular Holster & Back-Scabbard vs. Belt-Scabbard are almost the same conversation.....

That is by far the best rebuttal I have ever received on this site. I still don't agree, for the reasons stated earlier, but I'll concede that your arguement is proabably correct.

Just for the hell of it thoughh - Conan's (from the film) scabbard could do both (waist/back). ><'

Spoiler

Now, talking as a LARPer...

Culmination of my reaction to this part.

Nice way of showing respect for your fellow escapist. What, you have something against people who run around in the woods with foam swords and hitting each other? It there a problem painting yourself green and black like an orc? Shall you mock my hobby, in which there is total seriousness and skanky clad elfs?

Discrimination! Slander I say! Slander!

It's not so much the hobby, just that you used that in the beginning as the basis for your arguement. Now that EL Nastro has suitably worn me down I'll concede it.

BTW, do you want to buy my LARP modded Nerf Longshot? $350USD?

LARP modded, as in, looking like that repeater crossbow from Van Helsing?Even not, I'd gladly take a look at it

 

[Aeshi]

It's pretty unrealistic for people to just be all better after being horribly wounded just because they rested/ate some food/used a medkit as well if you want to be picky.

 

[Christian Lerche]

I've said this before, it is minor, very minor, but it seems like the genre could do without, making it even better.

I ask again, if this is so minor why make a thread about it?

Try talking to the other posters around, because I've gotten over this many days ago.

Now why would I reply to them? They did not make the thread.


Piece of advise. Don't start a rant thread if you can't handle the counter-"rant".

Wow, you really want to bait me huh?
I've said what I have to say and since you're interested in my motives rather than talk about the subject with others who have a lot of good arguments going, I again advise to make a Personal Message or perhaps talk with me under different conditions, Facebook Messenger or so.

To many, it's minor, and it is, but it's like games are trying to make it look dumber and more mainstream than needed be.

 

[Christian Lerche]

It's pretty unrealistic for people to just be all better after being horribly wounded just because they rested/ate some food/used a medkit as well if you want to be picky.

I'm not THAT picky, don't worry, I love over sized swords, skanky elves, huge dragons, marathon running knights in armor and ridicules costumes as anyone else on this forum, I just want to believe it when my characters draw their swords, that is it.

 

[Christian Lerche]

...I would suggest that the concept and application is not as far-fetched as it seems...

OK, let's think about that. How far-fetched does it seem? I don't think s.ob.'s are as far-fetched as, say, unicorns. Back-scabbards are definitely within the realm of "physically possible". It is possible to wear a sword on your back, & it is possible to draw it from such a scabbard, & I suppose that if you really practiced alot, & were very, very careful, you could even put the sword back into the back-scabbard. So it's not impossible. We know it's possible because we see it in movies ALL THE TIME (& we know it's not cgi), and lots of SCA-types have some kind of back-scabbard.

Then why don't we see it in illustrations? Why can't I google "back scabbard" and see a picture of one in something other than a bad movie, the He-Man cartoon, or a D&D manual? How come the BEST we can do is two vague (and arguably not very credible) references on Wikipedia? If back-scabbards were anywhere close to anything resembling practical, and was "a personal choice for the few among the majority", then we should see a few (10%, 5%, or even 1%) examples in things like the Bayeux Tapestry. We should see back-scabbards appearing regularly....not often, but sometimes. But we don't see them 1% of the time. We don't see them 1/100 of 1% of the time.

When we take note of that, how far-fetched DO they seem?

The implication is clear: while it's possible to wear a sword on your back, wearing one on the hip is objectively better. In every way it is objectively better. The sword is easier & faster to draw, easier and faster to replace, & it's easier & faster to put the belt on & take it off. It's also probably easier & faster to make a sword-belt than a back-baldric. Maybe it's not even better by a lot, but it's better by enough so that virtually no one ever chose to carry a sword sheathed on their back.

The only advantage to a back-scabbard is: it looks totally ninja.

I mean, how hard would it be for soldiers, government agents, police, & rednecks to make a "back-holster" for their pistols? (& I mean an over-the-shoulder back-holster just like a back-scabbard for a sword, not an underarm holster or small-of-the-back holster or anything like that) It's definitely possible. Maybe someone's even made one. You know how gun-people are. They love making custom accessories for their pieces....& there's lots of examples of innovative custom holsters out there, so I bet if we looked hard enough we could find an over-the-shoulder back-holster for a pistol.

Regardless....if an alien or time-traveler or whatever (who was making an RPG about Information Age Earthling humans) showed me his costume design, & it had a pistol back-holster, I'd be perfectly comfortable saying, "That's all wrong. No one ever did that. Pistols were never worn on the back like that. That's pure fantasy - you might think it looks cool, but it's sort of stupid. Just put the gun on the hip"

So in answer to the question, "how far-fetched do back-scabbards seem"? They seem about as far-fetched as a back-holster for a pistol - far-fetched enough that we see no GOOD evidence for them.



EDIT: I should have thought of this sooner. The back scabbard seems more far-fetched than the Hollywood cowboy fast-draw holster, which is known to be Pure Hollywood. That's where it ranks on the Scale of Far-Fetchedness.

Now that I'm thinking about it, Fast-Draw Holster vs. Regular Holster & Back-Scabbard vs. Belt-Scabbard are almost the same conversation.....

Clearly you're a better speaker than I am for this part, you make a very solid point in which I have been trying to prove all along

 

[Scarim Coral]

Monster Hunter Tri is one of the offender (I not too sure if the other series had this problem too). One of the weapons you get Katana like weapons and while you get the scabbard for it but when you draw it out, the scabbard is like a hologram. So yeah I would like to see a more realistic approach or at least to have the katana at the waist.

 

[wolas3214]

Sword fights between professional Plate clad soldiers could last up of 10-20 minutes before one is inevitably slain.

But this level of realism just simply isn't very fun.

I beg to differ, that sounds fucking awesome if you could implement it in a deep and strategic manner.

Mount and blade: warband is what your looking for. Ive literally dueled 5 minutes straight, picking up shieldes or better weapons from corpses to continue fighting and deftly block and jabbing inbetween, Best combat ive ever seen implemented into a fantasy game

 

[Wolfram23]

Couldn't agree more. Thing is, it's a game. It doesn't HAVE to make sense.

I hate that argument. I really, really do.

OT: Yeah, it's a major annoyance to me too. Scabbard's exist for a reason.

Me too. The thing is, a game sets it's boundaries. Mario games you know you're in for supremely ridiculous affair - double jumping and wall jumps and walking mushrooms and the like.

But you play a game like even Dragon Age 2 which is trying to look realistic and gritty for a fantasy setting. You can expect things like elves and dwarves and dragons and magic. But they still want to root it in realism and seeing a pair of short swords floating 3 inches off my character's back just throws that right out the window.

A game like WoW doesn't even try for realism so to me it's acceptable to have floating swords. I mean the armour itself is so crazy and flamboyant, you can ride dinosaurs, you can fall from pretty significant heights, not to mention all the silly emotes and all the little "easter egg" references scattered throughout the games.

In Fallout New Vegas I actually had to download a mod that created a pistol holster. It works great and honestly I can't believe that is something Obsidian didn't even think about.

Witcher 2, I actually think it's fine having the swords on the back even if it's completely silly from a usefulness standpoint because at least there's scabbards and such. They game is trying to look real, just like DA2, and at least they have the decency to not make weapons magically float on people's backs.

 

[Nylis]

So, people have problems with weapons that float on backs, but no problems with inventories that can hold a hundred greatswords, or battles that take place in small alternate dimensions, or swinging and clearly hitting a monster with your sword, but have words pop up and tell you that you missed. There are a lot of unrealistic things in games, because they are games.

 

[Sarge034]

Wow, you really want to bait me huh?
I've said what I have to say and since you're interested in my motives rather than talk about the subject with others who have a lot of good arguments going, I again advise to make a Personal Message or perhaps talk with me under different conditions, Facebook Messenger or so.

To many, it's minor, and it is, but it's like games are trying to make it look dumber and more mainstream than needed be.

I'm baiting you? It is not like you took the time to make a rant thread, admit this is a minor issue, and refuse to discuss your reasoning. Ow wait, you did. I have given several examples of things that make since in some of the games you stated as having a problem with. However, you decided to ignore them and contenue to blindly rant.

I'm not PM you because you made this thread to talk about this "issue".

I'm not using facebook or any of that shit because you made this thread to talk about this "issue".

So guess what. I'm using this thread to discuss this "issue" with you.

 

[Ace of Spades]

Where do you expect the main character to keep his/her massive two-handed sword?

 

[El_Nastro]

Where do you expect the main character to keep his/her massive two-handed sword?

That question implies s.o.b.'s only happen in games when we've got a "massive two-handed sword". But that's not the way it is.

For one, it's every type of weapon; 1-handed arming swords, cutlasses, staves, axes, crossbows, polearms, spears, rapiers...everything.

Second, it's not just in games. S.O.B.'s are found everywhere; movies, anime, western animation, comics, cover art, illustrations, miniatures...the only place s.o.b.'s aren't found is in historic sources (except for 2...count 'em 2....very suspect mentions on Wikipedia).

And at this point it's completely taken for granted. That's where the sword goes. The majority of artists, illustrators, and designers probably do it without even thinking about it, because that's just what you do. Swords are worn on the back - everyone knows that.

But I bet we'll see less and less of it as time goes by. Western Swordmanship is on the rise, and katana-fetishism is seeing a decline (thank god). More and more people fancy themselves as knowing a thing or two about real swordsmanship, so I predict we're going to see a trend away from "all things totally ninja" towards a more realistic depiction of this kind of thing.

 

[Ace of Spades]

Where do you expect the main character to keep his/her massive two-handed sword?

That question implies s.o.b.'s only happen in games when we've got a "massive two-handed sword". But that's not the way it is.

For one, it's every type of weapon; 1-handed arming swords, cutlasses, staves, axes, crossbows, polearms, spears, rapiers...everything.

Second, it's not just in games. S.O.B.'s are found everywhere; movies, anime, western animation, comics, cover art, illustrations, miniatures...the only place s.o.b.'s aren't found is in historic sources (except for 2...count 'em 2....very suspect mentions on Wikipedia).

And at this point it's completely taken for granted. That's where the sword goes. The majority of artists, illustrators, and designers probably do it without even thinking about it, because that's just what you do. Swords are worn on the back - everyone knows that.

But I bet we'll see less and less of it as time goes by. Western Swordmanship is on the rise, and katana-fetishism is seeing a decline (thank god). More and more people fancy themselves as knowing a thing or two about real swordsmanship, so I predict we're going to see a trend away from "all things totally ninja" towards a more realistic depiction of this kind of thing.

Congratulations, you have managed to completely misinterpret my post. To start, my post's question was sarcasm in case you didn't realize that. The massive two handed sword is an example of a weapon that wouldn't have many practical alternatives to carrying on the back without help, and the thrust of my remark is that the floating sword is an acceptable break from reality that isn't worth the time or development money to fix.