Rayman Origins deserves to have been so much more successful

[Grimfolse]

Never played a Rayman game before, so there's no way I'll drop 60 bucks on it, especially since the demo didn't do anything to really win me over.

Besides, the only Ubisoft game I could see myself being interested in for the foreseeable future would be an uncancelled Beyond Good and Evil 2.

 

[Zhukov]

As everyone else as pointed out, they released it at the same time as Battlefield 3, Uncharted 3, Skyrim, Modern Warfare 3, Assassin's Creed Revelations, Skyward Sword, Saint's Row 3 and probably a few others I've forgotten about.

Oh, and they charged the full $60.00 price for it. For a 2D platformer. In 2011.

Yeah... in hindsight, we should have seen this one coming.

 

[Balobo]

As everyone else as pointed out, they released it at the same time as Battlefield 3, Uncharted 3, Skyrim, Modern Warfare 3, Assassin's Creed Revelations, Skyward Sword, Saint's Row 3 and probably a few others I've forgotten about.

Oh, and they charged the full $60.00 price for it. For a 2D platformer. In 2011.

Yeah... in hindsight, we should have seen this one coming.

Oh yes because being a 2D platformer automatically makes its content worth less than other genres even though it obviously has tons more polish and work put into it.

 

[Zhukov]

As everyone else as pointed out, they released it at the same time as Battlefield 3, Uncharted 3, Skyrim, Modern Warfare 3, Assassin's Creed Revelations, Skyward Sword, Saint's Row 3 and probably a few others I've forgotten about.

Oh, and they charged the full $60.00 price for it. For a 2D platformer. In 2011.

Yeah... in hindsight, we should have seen this one coming.

Oh yes because being a 2D platformer automatically makes its content worth less than other genres even though it obviously has tons more polish and work put into it.

In the current market I can buy critically acclaimed 2D platformers for $15 or less. This is fact.

Rayman Origins, a critically acclaimed 2D platformer, was released into that same market with an asking price of $60. This is also fact.

Do you not see what I am getting at here? It isn't a matter of comparative quality, polish or effort, it's a matter of competition.

 

[Treblaine]

Maybe $60 on disc is simply the wrong price for this game regardless of perfection it is STILL just a 2D plat-former, it really should be a downloadable titled for $15-20, even as high as $25. But not $60. No way.

Also Ubisoft have been asshats recently (spreading bad blood amongst PC gamers will not give you good press) and 2D platformers have hardly been all that popular of recent years/decades except where the form factor forces it such as on portable devices.

Just compare with Splosion man, a 2D movement game but fully 3D and an extremely novel gameplay mechanic and highly kinetic style yet not TOO fast that you can't follow what's going on. And it's a $15 downloadable title.

Too expensive, I can get lot's of amazing platformers for a much lower ticket price.

Anybody who wants full price from me needs to put out a little more than a 2D platformer, anybody who wants to sell me a 2D platformer needs to consider the price I'm willing to pay.

So because it's a 2D platformer means that it shouldn't be the price that it is? Because it's a 2D platformer, it's inherently worse than other genres?

;-; is this how gamers are? /deathofanindustrygeneral

Do NOT confuse "worse" with "low value".

A DVD should be cheaper than a Blu-Ray, even for the exact same feature presentation. A 2-hour movie should be cheaper than a 16-hour Series BoxSet of similar acclaim. That is the dynamic that seems to be lost on you.

Games with full 3D worlds cost $60 whether they are Skyrim with hundreds of hours of engaging gameplay or Call of Juarez: The Cartel (a few hours of tedium). I am not going to pay $120 for Skyrim or Black Ops just because it's the best 3D game. $60 is the standard for full 3D games on console, $50 on PC.

Rayman: origins is not so good that it can demand whatever price it likes and expects it to sell just as well. Get Real. If they want a lot of money then they are going to have to spend it on the expensive 3D graphics, and as a 3D Graphics designer for computer games I'll tell you that is HARD WORK! I have to do enough drawings before I even start modeling and animating and fixing. Other exquisite 2D games on XBLA and Steam aren't demanding a $60 price point but closer to $15 and I don't appreciate Ubisoft thinking these industry conventions don't apply to them because they are holding Beyond Good and Evil 2 hostage. Yes, Ubisoft actually said we better buy Rayman Origin or BG&E2 may be cancelled because although it it totally different it's from the same director.

Imagine if James Cameron said "Avatar is so good, the movie isn't going to cost 15% more for 3D, it's going to cost 4x as much. Yes, as much as a DVD boxset to see one movie once at an allocated time and place"

Virtually no one would go see that movie for $40 ticket. Not even a Quarter as many. Not a 40th.

2D is not dying, nor is the industry, it is THRIVING in the $15 price point as downloadable content. $60 is a lot of money (really a lot) no so much that I cannot afford to spend that much but that I cannot afford to waste that much. I can take that chance on downloadable games. Learn from Valve's Steam sales that the $60-50 price point is too high, how when they discount games they see REVENUE (not units sold, actual money/cash/dollars) go up by not a percentage point but almost a whole order of magnitude.

I guarantee, if Raymay was A QUARTER its price it would sell 10x as well. You do the math and you'll know that's more money for ubisoft and more happy customers. And on XBLA there is a higher return to publisher of dollars paid.

But Ubisoft were greedy, they thought they could have their cake and eat it, jack up this side project and think somehow they are "above price".

Also, I'm a PC gamer and Ubisoft gave us all a big "fuck off" of lately and I feel compelled to retun the favour. The fact that a game like this on Steam for $60 next to Batman Arkham City and Skyrim (each for $50) would have been too much, and how in Steam sales this game might have actually sold for a fair price. But no.

Ubisoft have been bastards with DRM. Snide traitors abandoning PC ports that were promised and attacking us at every opportunity. They have zero good will left.

 

[Bealzibob]

Well I was interested at first but when I found out it was 2D I dropped it. I really hate 2D as a design structure for anything thats not a indie game (I'll give them it because it's quickly solves a tonne of problems allowing them to focus on the meat of the game). If it was 3D I would of snapped that shit up.

Big fan on all the Rayman games pre-rabbits so I excited when they seemed to have dropped the stupid things. >.>

 

[snyper101]

100% agree with you, I love that game to no end. Think of it as a videogame version of a highly praised arthouse film.

 

[Mr. Omega]

*Sees thread* Hell yeah! It was a great game!

*Sees people going over their anger of Ubisoft* Shame... they're missing out, but I can understand.

*Sees people saying it was charging too much* Well, games are expensive these days...

*Sees people saying that because it's 2D, it doesn't deserve to be released with 3D Games* hgrghfdsglfasdklelwrtjk!... sorry... I think I just felt part of my gaming soul die.

 

[Balobo]

Do NOT confuse "worse" with "low value".

A DVD should be cheaper than a Blu-Ray, even for the exact same feature presentation. A 2-hour movie should be cheaper than a 16-hour Series BoxSet of similar acclaim. That is the dynamic that seems to be lost on you.

The problem with this analogy is that you assume Rayman Origins has significantly less content than the average AAA 60$ game. It doesn't. Naturally because it's 2D it's going to be a bit linear, but then again games like Uncharted 3 are linear and retail for the same price. Doesn't make them worth less.

Games with full 3D worlds cost $60 whether they are Skyrim with hundreds of hours of engaging gameplay or Call of Juarez: The Cartel (a few hours of tedium). I am not going to pay $120 for Skyrim or Black Ops just because it's the best 3D game. $60 is the standard for full 3D games on console, $50 on PC.

Haha what. Oh I see, you're saying that a game has to be 3D to automatically be worth more than 20 dollars

Rayman: origins is not so good that it can demand whatever price it likes and expects it to sell just as well. Get Real. If they want a lot of money then they are going to have to spend it on the expensive 3D graphics, and as a 3D Graphics designer for computer games I'll tell you that is HARD WORK! I have to do enough drawings before I even start modeling and animating and fixing.

How do you know that the extremely high res and highly detailed art assets of Rayman Origins AREN'T hard to make? Perhaps they're harder than a lot of 3D games.

Other exquisite 2D games on XBLA and Steam aren't demanding a $60 price point but closer to $15

Rayman Origins seems to be a much richer experience than a lot of cheaper downloadable games. I don't expect a 60$ 3D game to be 15$ because I can get a similar 3D one off Steam for that price.

and I don't appreciate Ubisoft thinking these industry conventions don't apply to them because they are holding Beyond Good and Evil 2 hostage. Yes, Ubisoft actually said we better buy Rayman Origin or BG&E2 may be cancelled because although it it totally different it's from the same director.

Yeah, stupid move.

2D is not dying, nor is the industry, it is THRIVING in the $15 price point as downloadable content. $60 is a lot of money (really a lot) no so much that I cannot afford to spend that much but that I cannot afford to waste that much. I can take that chance on downloadable games. Learn from Valve's Steam sales that the $60-50 price point is too high, how when they discount games they see REVENUE (not units sold, actual money/cash/dollars) go up by not a percentage point but almost a whole order of magnitude.

They do that to a lot of 3D AAA games, though. Anyways, that works for every game, regardless of genre. Cheaper price = More sales

I guarantee, if Raymay was A QUARTER its price it would sell 10x as well. You do the math and you'll know that's more money for ubisoft and more happy customers. And on XBLA there is a higher return to publisher of dollars paid.

But Ubisoft were greedy, they thought they could have their cake and eat it, jack up this side project and think somehow they are "above price".

It also could've sold 10x more if they had maintained consumer awareness for Rayman, didn't release it on the same day as their biggest IP's latest addition, and marketed it a bit better.

 

[AyreonMaiden]

So because it's a 2D platformer means that it shouldn't be the price that it is? Because it's a 2D platformer, it's inherently worse than other genres?

;-; is this how gamers are? /deathofanindustrygeneral

Aww, don't generalize like that! Some of same people who didn't feel they got $60's worth of fun out of Rayman bought Catherine and appreciated its mature story, played Katawa Shoujo and didn't judge it preemptively, get Suda 51's humor and irreverence, and regularly support indie gaming!

Rayman's not the only one who suffers and not all of gaming is full of meatheads.

 

[Treblaine]

Maybe $60 on disc is simply the wrong price for this game regardless of perfection it is STILL just a 2D plat-former, it really should be a downloadable titled for $15-20, even as high as $25. But not $60. No way.

Also Ubisoft have been asshats recently (spreading bad blood amongst PC gamers will not give you good press) and 2D platformers have hardly been all that popular of recent years/decades except where the form factor forces it such as on portable devices.

Just compare with Splosion man, a 2D movement game but fully 3D and an extremely novel gameplay mechanic and highly kinetic style yet not TOO fast that you can't follow what's going on. And it's a $15 downloadable title.

How does the fact the it is a 2d platformer automatically make it worth less than other games? I fail to see the logic in that. It's like saying comedy films should sell for less than action movies

Look on Xbox Live, Playstation Store, Steam. It is an industry standard that 2D games are around the $15 price point. Games that go to the effort and expense of full 3D worlds can charge up to $60 (though they maybe for much less or cheaper, it's just $60 is the upper limit).

Art is art, it's priceless. This is not like a unique work (millions of identical copies are printed) so you can't compare to million dollar paintings by dead painters. So what is my money for in games? I'll tell you what: breadth and depth.

Simply that: I am not paying $60 for a 2D game as that is my personal valuation, even if it's a 2D only Zelda game I'm not paying $60. I Don't like paying even $50 (standard PC price) for full 3D games, only for games I'm sure i will get not just many hours of enjoyment, but a VARIETY of experiences that you can get with 3D games.

I know about Rayman Origins and it cannot live up to the breadth and depth of it's full 3D competition like Arkham City, Red Dead Redemption, Skyrim, Uncharted 3, Deus Ex Human Revolution and Witcher 2. More basic 3D games like Serious Sam 3 go for a much lower price, and as much as I love Serious Sam (and I REALLY do) I wouldn't pay $60 for it, not even $40, I waited till steam sale when it was for $20.

Rayman Origins is running to the right and jumping. Splosion man did this for $15 in full 3D animation (much more expensive than hand drawing a few frames) and with a novel mechanic of explosions while being a great challenge of rhythm and timing and some outside the box thinking. What is so revolutionary about R:O other than it being insufferably cutesy and annoying musical notes for every little thing you do.

I am not impressed by such over-the-top design of piling in so many elements in with far too abstracted designs. And it's not like this is the best 2D art you've ever seen, it's very broad, abstract and clearly made from a few frames there is very little movement. But behold Dust: an Elysian Tail


A coming XBLA game will be for a fraction of Rayman: origins, it wil probably make more money.

 

[PureIrony]

The problem isn't just the genre or the presentation. Its the fact that it got a November release date and tried to go toe-to-toe with the new Assassin's Creed, Serious Sam, etc. If Ubisoft had released it now or maybe in February, when absolutely nothing is coming out, I'm pretty sure the game would have had it a lot easier.

Especially since this game will have an impact over the likelihood of Beyound Good and Evil 2.

 

[Balobo]

Rayman Origins is running to the right and jumping. Splosion man did this for $15 in full 3D animation (much more expensive than hand drawing a few frames) and with a novel mechanic of explosions while being a great challenge of rhythm and timing and some outside the box thinking. What is so revolutionary about R:O other than it being insufferably cutesy and annoying musical notes for every little thing you do.

What's so revolutionary about 'Splosion Man other than some gimmick? Seriously. And how come you automatically assume that Rayman Origin's very high detailed art work is less expensive and easier to make than 'Splosion Man's mediocre 3D graphics?

 

[Treblaine]

Do NOT confuse "worse" with "low value".

A DVD should be cheaper than a Blu-Ray, even for the exact same feature presentation. A 2-hour movie should be cheaper than a 16-hour Series BoxSet of similar acclaim. That is the dynamic that seems to be lost on you.

The problem with this analogy is that you assume Rayman Origins has significantly less content than the average AAA 60$ game. It doesn't. Naturally because it's 2D it's going to be a bit linear, but then again games like Uncharted 3 are linear and retail for the same price. Doesn't make them worth less.

Games with full 3D worlds cost $60 whether they are Skyrim with hundreds of hours of engaging gameplay or Call of Juarez: The Cartel (a few hours of tedium). I am not going to pay $120 for Skyrim or Black Ops just because it's the best 3D game. $60 is the standard for full 3D games on console, $50 on PC.

Haha what. Oh I see, you're saying that a game has to be 3D to automatically be worth more than 20 dollars

Rayman: origins is not so good that it can demand whatever price it likes and expects it to sell just as well. Get Real. If they want a lot of money then they are going to have to spend it on the expensive 3D graphics, and as a 3D Graphics designer for computer games I'll tell you that is HARD WORK! I have to do enough drawings before I even start modeling and animating and fixing.

How do you know that the extremely high res and highly detailed art assets of Rayman Origins AREN'T hard to make? Perhaps they're harder than a lot of 3D games.

Other exquisite 2D games on XBLA and Steam aren't demanding a $60 price point but closer to $15

Rayman Origins seems to be a much richer experience than a lot of cheaper downloadable games. I don't expect a 60$ 3D game to be 15$ because I can get a similar 3D one off Steam for that price.

and I don't appreciate Ubisoft thinking these industry conventions don't apply to them because they are holding Beyond Good and Evil 2 hostage. Yes, Ubisoft actually said we better buy Rayman Origin or BG&E2 may be cancelled because although it it totally different it's from the same director.

Yeah, stupid move.

2D is not dying, nor is the industry, it is THRIVING in the $15 price point as downloadable content. $60 is a lot of money (really a lot) no so much that I cannot afford to spend that much but that I cannot afford to waste that much. I can take that chance on downloadable games. Learn from Valve's Steam sales that the $60-50 price point is too high, how when they discount games they see REVENUE (not units sold, actual money/cash/dollars) go up by not a percentage point but almost a whole order of magnitude.

They do that to a lot of 3D AAA games, though. Anyways, that works for every game, regardless of genre. Cheaper price = More sales

I guarantee, if Raymay was A QUARTER its price it would sell 10x as well. You do the math and you'll know that's more money for ubisoft and more happy customers. And on XBLA there is a higher return to publisher of dollars paid.

But Ubisoft were greedy, they thought they could have their cake and eat it, jack up this side project and think somehow they are "above price".

It also could've sold 10x more if they had maintained consumer awareness for Rayman, didn't release it on the same day as their biggest IP's latest addition, and marketed it a bit better.

FISKING! So much easier than writing well constructed prose, yet so much harder to reply to. See what you've done? ^^^^^^ Don't do that.

Rayman Origins DOES have significantly less content. It has a whole dimension less. Even Uncharted lets you turn and move to the side and explore environments and the whole element of camera and body positioning relative to the enemy, vehicle levels, weapon types, and a dozen other gameplay circumstances.

Yes, a games does have to be more than 2D for me to ever pay more than $20. There is only so much you can do with a 2D game, this isn't 1992 any more, times have changed.

Now I will repeat myself, as you seem to be playing jeopardy, I gave you the answer and then in the reply you give me the question that goes precisely with that answer: "as a 3D Graphics designer for computer games I'll tell you that is HARD WORK!"

You should expect the more basic 3D games to be cheaper precisely because Steam does that. Lower game prices are better for everyone, more people play the games and publishers get more money.

Everyone is "aware" of Rayman: origins. I remember seeing the prime-time TV slots in my country but they are trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear when there are millions who will pay a fair price for a sows ear purse and enjoy it... but not being treated like chumps. Hardly anyone cares about Rayman's origins, and the art strays so much from the original that I remember and might have drawn me in (that PIXIE!). And the music and sound design is just an obnoxious cacophony. Less is more.

It is too expensive. Everything about this screams "$15 downloadable title", and it would have been a very good one. But they pushed it too far. Other great 2D sidescrollers have sold well even when released in the Nvember melee... but they weren't sold on disc for $60. Remember it's not JUST the price, it's also the location. Cash in hand in store, it's going to go to Skyrim, Red Dead GOTY or COD, not this obnoxiously jubilant 2D French game. But on XBLA, much easier sell with some leftover points or a credit card with some money left.

 

[Treblaine]

Rayman Origins is running to the right and jumping. Splosion man did this for $15 in full 3D animation (much more expensive than hand drawing a few frames) and with a novel mechanic of explosions while being a great challenge of rhythm and timing and some outside the box thinking. What is so revolutionary about R:O other than it being insufferably cutesy and annoying musical notes for every little thing you do.

What's so revolutionary about 'Splosion Man other than some gimmick? Seriously. And how come you automatically assume that Rayman Origin's very high detailed art work is less expensive and easier to make than 'Splosion Man's mediocre 3D graphics?

At least it had something you could TRY to dismiss as just a shallow gimmick. It isn't, by the way.

I don't assume about graphics, I know. Because I am training as a 3D graphics artist and know how hard it is to make 3D models and to animate them (and get them to work) is extraordinarily time consuming. I also notice how quickly I see people in the art department whoop out drawings on photoshop of Rayman: origins quality, and clealry how few frames of animation R:O uses and other things easily shortcutted in photoshop.

Really, the entire project looks and is cheap. You've been sold a sows ear if you paid a full $60.

14 year olds working alone after school have made flash animation games in the same ball park as Rayman Origins... 10 years ago:


Started of as a Flash game in 2002

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_Hominid

And they didn't even have photoshop back then and extrapolate forward 10 years.


According to Yves Guillemot, only five people were working on Rayman: Origins at one time:
http://www.joystiq.com/2010/07/06/rayman-origins-slapped-on-xbla-psn-this-christmas-other-platfo/

This goes does NOT REMOTELY justify the $60 price point! Unless they somehow wanted the game to sell in very low numbers.

 

[Balobo]

FISKING! So much easier than writing well constructed prose, yet so much harder to reply to. See what you've done? ^^^^^^ Don't do that.

Rayman Origins DOES have significantly less content. It has a whole dimension less. Even Uncharted lets you turn and move to the side and explore environments and the whole element of camera and body positioning relative to the enemy, vehicle levels, weapon types, and a dozen other gameplay circumstances.

Yes, a games does have to be more than 2D for me to ever pay more than $20. There is only so much you can do with a 2D game, this isn't 1992 any more, times have changed.

Now I will repeat myself, as you seem to be playing jeopardy, I gave you the answer and then in the reply you give me the question that goes precisely with that answer: "as a 3D Graphics designer for computer games I'll tell you that is HARD WORK!"

You should expect the more basic 3D games to be cheaper precisely because Steam does that. Lower game prices are better for everyone, more people play the games and publishers get more money.

Everyone is "aware" of Rayman: origins. I remember seeing the prime-time TV slots in my country but they are trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear when there are millions who will pay a fair price for a sows ear purse and enjoy it... but not being treated like chumps. Hardly anyone cares about Rayman's origins, and the art strays so much from the original that I remember and might have drawn me in (that PIXIE!). And the music and sound design is just an obnoxious cacophony. Less is more.

It is too expensive. Everything about this screams "$15 downloadable title", and it would have been a very good one. But they pushed it too far. Other great 2D sidescrollers have sold well even when released in the Nvember melee... but they weren't sold on disc for $60. Remember it's not JUST the price, it's also the location. Cash in hand in store, it's going to go to Skyrim, Red Dead GOTY or COD, not this obnoxiously jubilant 2D French game. But on XBLA, much easier sell with some leftover points or a credit card with some money left.

If fisking is too hard for you to understand how to respond to then I will avoid doing it. Keep in mind some of us like to organize our points.

This first point doesn't make sense. So because you can position yourself in a 3D world rather than a 2D world... it makes it worth three times as much regardless of content? What the fuck. So let's say I make a blank 3D desert with about five enemies and a couple of weapons to attack them with. There is only one level. Is it worth more or less than Rayman Origins? Expect you to say "more" because you can position yourself, apparently adding 40 dollars worth of content.

Here's the thing, critics seem to be thinking that Rayman Origins did quite enough to justify its price point. I see people who have purchased the game say that its price point is justified. I see people who have paid a lot less after the game has been marked down saying that they feel bad for not buying at the full retail price because it is definitely worth it. Yes, I am aware that you are a 3D artist. Yes I am aware that 3D art takes hard work. How the hell does that mean that 2D art takes less work?

Listen, if you want to pay for the more generic 3D games such as CoD rather than a charming and beautiful 2D platformer, be my guest. Everybody that has purchased Rayman seems to be raving about it.

 

[Balobo]

At least it had something you could TRY to dismiss as just a shallow gimmick. It isn't, by the way.

I don't assume about graphics, I know. Because I am training as a 3D graphics artist and know how hard it is to make 3D models and to animate them (and get them to work) is extraordinarily time consuming. I also notice how quickly I see people in the art department whoop out drawings on photoshop of Rayman: origins quality, and clealry how few frames of animation R:O uses and other things easily shortcutted in photoshop.

Really, the entire project looks and is cheap. You've been sold a sows ear if you paid a full $60.

14 year olds working alone after school have made flash animation games in the same ball park as Rayman Origins... 10 years ago:


Started of as a Flash game in 2002

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_Hominid

And they didn't even have photoshop back then and extrapolate forward 10 years.


According to Yves Guillemot, only five people were working on Rayman: Origins at one time:
http://www.joystiq.com/2010/07/06/rayman-origins-slapped-on-xbla-psn-this-christmas-other-platfo/

This goes does NOT REMOTELY justify the $60 price point! Unless they somehow wanted the game to sell in very low numbers.

Ahaha oh God, what kind of argument is this. Are you trolling? Can we just get this question out of the way, as I am legitimately starting to believe that you are.

 

[Semudara]

The problem is NOT that it's a 2D platformer. Games such as Kirby's Epic Yarn and New Super Mario Bros. Wii got all the success they deserved, at full price.

The problem is a lack of EFFECTIVE marketing, which wouldn't be so bad if it hadn't released alongside a ton of other must-have games.

Hopefully it will find success in long-term sales, especially once it comes out on handheld.

 

[Treblaine]

At least it had something you could TRY to dismiss as just a shallow gimmick. It isn't, by the way.

I don't assume about graphics, I know. Because I am training as a 3D graphics artist and know how hard it is to make 3D models and to animate them (and get them to work) is extraordinarily time consuming. I also notice how quickly I see people in the art department whoop out drawings on photoshop of Rayman: origins quality, and clealry how few frames of animation R:O uses and other things easily shortcutted in photoshop.

Really, the entire project looks and is cheap. You've been sold a sows ear if you paid a full $60.

14 year olds working alone after school have made flash animation games in the same ball park as Rayman Origins... 10 years ago:


Started of as a Flash game in 2002

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_Hominid

And they didn't even have photoshop back then and extrapolate forward 10 years.


According to Yves Guillemot, only five people were working on Rayman: Origins at one time:
http://www.joystiq.com/2010/07/06/rayman-origins-slapped-on-xbla-psn-this-christmas-other-platfo/

This goes does NOT REMOTELY justify the $60 price point! Unless they somehow wanted the game to sell in very low numbers.

Ahaha oh God, what kind of argument is this. Are you trolling? Can we just get this question out of the way, as I am legitimately starting to believe that you are.

Read the forum rules, it is forbidden to accuse other Escapist members of trolling.

This is a very good argument if you consider how it it right rather than search for places to pick holes in it, then throw out your arms when you find it watertight and resort to accusations.