Re: DoA Jiggle Physics - What exactly are we fixing?

[DanDeFool]

I'm probably going to cement my title as the village idiot with this one, but maybe I deserve that title because I can't figure this out.

I can understand how the portrayal of women in fighting games like DoA, with the emphasis on boob-jiggling and skimpy outfits is offensive for a variety of reasons. It's pandering to male sexual fantasies. It could reinforce negative body-image concepts for young girls. It implies that you can't have a powerful woman who isn't also unrealistically sexy and wearing less than three square inches of fabric.

My question is this. Let's say you replace all the unrealistically sexy chicks with women who are proportioned like real female athletes (look for pictures of women from the 2012 Olympics if you need an example; I figure that's pretty reasonable). I feel like this would make the fighting game genre more accessible to women, but I'm having trouble putting my finger on why that is.

I don't think it would effect anything as drastic as a role-reversal. You're not trading a male sexual power fantasy for a female one. Or is that not the point? Maybe it's enough that it's just not explicitly a male sexual fantasy? Maybe you just don't attract as many of the types of men who look down on women (e.g. the Cross Assault incident)? Maybe I'm only understanding this on an intellectual level (i.e.: I know that women find unrealistic portrayals of the female body alienating, but I don't really "get" why that is)?

Help me out here. I feel like I might be overthinking things here.

EDIT: I haven't really gotten any answer to my question so far, but I've got a couple of theories going based on the discussion so far.

1: A woman's feelings toward boob jiggle physics are roughly equivalent to what men would experience if we had flaccid penis jiggle physics. In other words, it is physically repulsive to them. Getting rid of this stuff makes games more accessible to women because it's no longer a total gross-out.

2: Getting rid of the boobs and asses wouldn't solve the problem of accessibility, because the T&A isn't the core of the problem. The problem is a lack of characterization in female characters that appeals to women. The idea that the women in these games are strong, independent, heroic, stoic, etc. is not being conveyed through the characterization (what little there is, anyway; we're still talking about fighting games). In this case, my question becomes; what specifically is wrong with the characterization, and how should devs do things differently?

 

[Ruedyn]

I don't care what they look like, they all just look like punching bags to me, except Haggar and Vergil, too awesome to be punching bags.

What was I saying again? Oh, right. I don't think it would make it less sexist, wouldn't feminists be angry that guys are beating the ever loving shit out of strong female leads? I'm probably wrong but whatever.

 

[Fr]anc[is]

Because "DOA has big boobs, but it's not a huge deal" doesn't generate page hits and ad revenue.

 

[Ryotknife]

well......you dont exactly play fighting games for the riveting story/characters (in before persona arena). when you choose a character, it is either because you like how they look or because of their fighting style.

I am not a huge fighting game fan, I did play DOA2-3 back in the days. I always played a male character, not out of "male pride" but because i did not want to deal with people accusing my of choosing my character because she was sexy. Besides, from my limited experience female fighters tend to be fast and highly technical, not my cup of tea. Prefer defensive with strong counterattacks (like Hayate).

While it may be morally right to get rid of the jiggle physics.....their game sales will probably drop like a stone (due to how heavily invested sex is to their product). What kind of a message will that send? Try to cater to the female audience a little bit and see your game tank? NOT the kind of message we want to send to the industry, that will do a crapton of damage.

Although devs need to learn to simmer down a bit when it comes to any subject revolving any gender. You would think they would learn after all of the recent controversy

 

[Phlakes]

It's not fixing anything. Jiggle physics are there because boobs, not because they're "objectifying women" or they're sexist or whatever. I mean, we argue all the time that killing in games isn't "romanticizing violence", so I guess it's just some typical gamer hypocrisy.

 

[Rainmaker77]

I really don't get the 'women don't look like this in real life' thing people have with video games. You know what? Most MEN don't look like the characters they play in video games either.

Is Arnold Schwarzenegger the only person who can play Duke Nukem and not be offended?

How about only Italians being able to associate with Etzio?

Can only crazy psychopaths who think the world is filled with rainbows play the Pyro?

Games are -fantasy- and are marketed almost entirely towards -men-. Yes women play, but I am almost certain that most game studios don't even think of females playing their creations.

Most action films are exactly the same. A typical James Bond film isn't much different from a video game, yet we rarely see people complain there. I assume that's because the movie industry also has romcoms, whereas AAA games are entirely made for a male market.

 

[Hagi]

I assume that's because the movie industry also has romcoms, whereas AAA games are entirely made for a male market.

That's pretty much exactly it.

The problem isn't that games like DoA exist. The problem is that too many games are like that or don't feature women at all.

Bouncy boobs are perfectly fine, as long as for every pair that's bouncing around there are several realistic and believable female characters.

Games without any women are also perfectly fine, as long as they're the exception and not the rule.

Currently that doesn't really seem to be the case at all.

 

[maninahat]

http://fcfighter.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/SarahKaufman.jpg

http://www.ztgd.com/images/screenshots/xbox360/doa4/100.jpg

Which one you wanna play?

Actually, the former. I want punches to look like they have impact. I want people who are athletes. I want fights to take a toll and require grit, instead of having people gliding around the ring on high heels. Too much she-fu takes away the tactile, viceral, human quality which fights should have. If you want to see people floating around, make a good wuxia fighting game (which, interestingly, we don't have either).

 

[Rainmaker77]

I assume that's because the movie industry also has romcoms, whereas AAA games are entirely made for a male market.

That's pretty much exactly it.

The problem isn't that games like DoA exist. The problem is that too many games are like that or don't feature women at all.

Bouncy boobs are perfectly fine, as long as for every pair that's bouncing around there are several realistic and believable female characters.

Games without any women are also perfectly fine, as long as they're the exception and not the rule.

Currently that doesn't really seem to be the case at all.

I would argue games don't NEED realistic women in them. How many romcoms have realistic women in them? Sex in the city featured 4 sticks as far as I can tell, all of whom had so much money that they didn't even flinch when one of their partners loses a job.

They just need games, AAA games mind you, made FOR them, but I honestly can't see that happing for a long time, if ever.

 

[JediMB]

Here's the thing as I see it.

DOA exists? It's team acknowledges that it's goofy male fantasy fun? Okay, that's great. Have at it.

But when that same team tries to make an actual female in an actual narrative while they have that same attitude towards women, what happens?

Metroid: Other M happens.

Yeah. That.

No, Metroid: Other M happens when Nintendo's Yoshio Sakamoto tries to write an actual story with actual characters.

He's been a director and/or producer for the series since its inception, but he's a terrible, terrible writer. See also the shoddy internal monologues featured (but less prominent) in Metroid Fusion.

Team Ninja were responsible for the gameplay in Other M. Not the story (written by Yoshio Sakamoto), not the cutscenes/FMVs (made by D-Rockets)... just engine and gameplay.

 

[WindKnight]

Having watched some clips of DOA's jiggle physics, the main reason I dislike it, is its creepy. Not in a 'oh, thats too much detail you pervs' sense, but in the 'ye gods, that's not how breasts move' sense.

 

[WindKnight]

http://fcfighter.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/SarahKaufman.jpg

http://www.ztgd.com/images/screenshots/xbox360/doa4/100.jpg

Which one you wanna play?

The first one! I can feel the punch from here lol.

besides, why not have both? The only real grumble I have (and generally see) against BOOBIESBOOBIESBOOBIES is that all we get is BOOBIESBOOBIESBOOBIES. Can we get Buff Tuff Lady as well as BOOBIESBOOBIESBOOBIES?

 

[Scarim Coral]

Technically the jiggle physics is still somewhat relevent e.g. Rufus from Street Figther 4 is the only noticeable character with a "jiggle" physics and no he doesn't got man boobs.

How about simply given the girl an option to wear a sport bra since with all the fighting and jiggle would take a toll on their breast and also wear appropriate clothing as this video show that their clothing would of fallen apart-

 

[Hagi]

I assume that's because the movie industry also has romcoms, whereas AAA games are entirely made for a male market.

That's pretty much exactly it.

The problem isn't that games like DoA exist. The problem is that too many games are like that or don't feature women at all.

Bouncy boobs are perfectly fine, as long as for every pair that's bouncing around there are several realistic and believable female characters.

Games without any women are also perfectly fine, as long as they're the exception and not the rule.

Currently that doesn't really seem to be the case at all.

I would argue games don't NEED realistic women in them. How many romcoms have realistic women in them? Sex in the city featured 4 sticks as far as I can tell, all of whom had so much money that they didn't even flinch when one of their partners loses a job.

They just need games, AAA games mind you, made FOR them, but I honestly can't see that happing for a long time, if ever.

If games want to reach maturity as a medium then you will NEED realistic women (and men) in them.

Just because those don't feature often in romcoms doesn't mean there aren't many other genres in which they do.

Drama, Mystery, Suspense and Thrillers all feature characters as believable as possible, those genres wouldn't work without that. And movies as a medium wouldn't be anywhere close to the same without those genres.

There's a bit more to movies than just action for the men and romcoms for the women.

Likewise I hope that there will be a bit more to games than just action for the men and whatever the romcom equivalent for games may be for women.

 

[Rainmaker77]

I assume that's because the movie industry also has romcoms, whereas AAA games are entirely made for a male market.

That's pretty much exactly it.

The problem isn't that games like DoA exist. The problem is that too many games are like that or don't feature women at all.

Bouncy boobs are perfectly fine, as long as for every pair that's bouncing around there are several realistic and believable female characters.

Games without any women are also perfectly fine, as long as they're the exception and not the rule.

Currently that doesn't really seem to be the case at all.

I would argue games don't NEED realistic women in them. How many romcoms have realistic women in them? Sex in the city featured 4 sticks as far as I can tell, all of whom had so much money that they didn't even flinch when one of their partners loses a job.

They just need games, AAA games mind you, made FOR them, but I honestly can't see that happing for a long time, if ever.

If games want to reach maturity as a medium then you will NEED realistic women (and men) in them.

Just because those don't feature often in romcoms doesn't mean there aren't many other genres in which they do.

Drama, Mystery, Suspense and Thrillers all feature characters as believable as possible, those genres wouldn't work without that. And movies as a medium wouldn't be anywhere close to the same without those genres.

There's a bit more to movies than just action for the men and romcoms for the women.

Likewise I hope that there will be a bit more to games than just action for the men and whatever the romcom equivalent for games may be for women.

While true for TV, I still disagree about movies. Most blockbuster movies will have a 'star' attached to them, most of whom are not representative of the majority of people.

I do agree however that when you have realistic people in the roles it is so much more immersive. This is probably the reason that TV shows are actually generally better than most blockbuster films at current. Breaking Bad has a fantastic cast and because all of them are perfectly suited for their role, you get behind the story so much more.

If Matt Daymon played Walter White (I am sure Hollywood would deem anyone near the correct age 'too old' for a mainstream audience) it would break all immersion.