Re: DoA Jiggle Physics - What exactly are we fixing?

[excalipoor]

Who, me? First of all, sir (or ma'am), I'm well aware that I don't have an all-encompassing knowledge of this issue (the reason why many of my replies have been phrased as questions). The whole reason I started this thread is because I didn't understand why getting rid of boob jiggle physics solves the problem of making games more accessible to women. Yes, I do like the aesthetic of video games like DoA, but I'm well aware that other people might be interested in something else.

I try my best to avoid making generalizations, but I guess I do. Sorry.

If you were referring to someone else, please be careful about addressing someone as "you" when using the quote feature, since it ends up in the inbox of the person you quoted.

Boudica is who I was referring to, I thought that was pretty clear. Sorry 'bout that.

 

[Starik20X6]

After much thought, I believe it might have something to do with the fact that in the world of games, men come in all shapes and sizes, to the point where the most famous games are about a fat guy with a big nose and a moustache, whereas females are represented far more often as the current societal definition of attractive.

Of course, this is implying that all guys find the DoA 'look' attractive, when I can safely say that I don't. Also, I think it's worth noting that characters like Marcus Fenix piss me off just by looking at them. Maybe that's what it's like.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

.
EDIT: I haven't really gotten any answer to my question so far, but I've got a couple of theories going based on the discussion so far.

1: A woman's feelings toward boob jiggle physics are roughly equivalent to what men would experience if we had flaccid penis jiggle physics. In other words, it is physically repulsive to them. Getting rid of this stuff makes games more accessible to women because it's no longer a total gross-out.

2: Getting rid of the boobs and asses wouldn't solve the problem of accessibility, because the T&A isn't the core of the problem. The problem is a lack of characterization in female characters that appeals to women. The idea that the women in these games are strong, independent, heroic, stoic, etc. is not being conveyed through the characterization (what little there is, anyway; we're still talking about fighting games). In this case, my question becomes; what specifically is wrong with the characterization, and how should devs do things differently?

Going to address your edit:

1. To be honest, flaccid penis physics wouldn't offend me... but it doesn't exist. There are no flaccid penises in (unmodded) games. Now I won't go so far to say its sexist... Japan and America both have obscenely ass backwards views on nudity and they are the biggest influence on this topics in games. That absence of penis physics is a result of this more so then it is the result of all male dev teams going "ewww penises".

Fun fact: In the original God of War they had programmed flaccid penis physics for their Cyclops models, but cut the penis (cringe) off of the model... but kept Medusas Nipples (I think, might be an addition to later games) and Kratos's soul spewing romps on the ship.

What do I know, I'm a weird European (actually irish, but I take after my mainland peers rather then my socially repressed catholic natives).

2. Women come in as varied shapes and sizes as Men. Fat, skinny, Broad, short, petite, Tall, Muscular, athletic, flabby... yet Women are always categorised (in fighting games) as athletic, tall/petite and skinny. While men can fit in the entire spectrum, depending on the game. Fat and Muscular, Skinny and Athletic, Tall and broad... etc. This doesn't even come close the highlighting the difference in representation of women in games.

It has nothing to do with Ugliness. There is such a narrow vision of what Women can be presented as in games. I did a gush-tastic review of Enslaved: Odyssey to the West yesterday, but I kept certain reservations out of the equation. I will bring this up now:

Trip, the girl, is literally the single most commonly used body type for women in games. Hour Glass figure, medium/Large bust, pronounced and taut tush. Small and frail (the character is a complete wimp by the way).

Monkey and pigsy (Middle and Left respectfully) on the other hand are so vastly different in presentation. This is good... this is a really good contrast. I loved it.

But when you step back and look at games as a whole... this contrast does not exist for women. The size of the boobs and the size of the ass seems to be the biggest physical differentiator. Flaws are minimal (despite living very dangerous lives, none of them are scarred). Flawless skin, perfect figures etc. Its BORING! This is all the potential female characters you can see in games:
***
Damsel, (Weak, cute, small)
Nerdy, (Smart, weak, cute, small)
Tomboy, (boisterous, cute, strong, small)
Bubbly (Cute, energetic, small)
Brave/Warrior (Sexy, strong, tall)
Tough girl (Cute, Strong, small)
Femme Fatale (Sexy, Strong, small)

Boob size may vary.

To get back to enslaved, why couldn't monkey be some herculian woman? They changed Trip to woman (based on a male monk, tripataka), why couldn't pigsy or Monkey have a gender swap? I mean they could have made Trip into a weak male character and have him be protected by a strong combat worn wild woman with a muscular physique. Or they could have made pigsy, this repulsive mass of repugnance and wit, into a woman too.

There are certain contexts that these role/gender reversals don't work. This might be one of them, but it still highlights the issue I'm getting at: Women are portrayed in a very small spectrum of physical (and characterised) attributes.

And its boring as fuck.

The worst offenders of sexist characters is all in personality though... what women look like in games is only the tip of the iceberg. If Conan can run around in a loincloth wielding a giant greatsword, then a woman can run around in a fur bra and loin cloth too... but a fair portrayal would mean the woman is as physically capable to hold the great sword. That requires noticeable muscular physique, not supple soft skin. But if the Warrior woman requires a man to bail her out of tough situations, or is made to cry soft tears of sorrow, where Conan would just erupt into a furious explosion of violence, there is something wrong. The character been portrayed is being compromised because someone felt that women always weep.

Whether thats true or not in reality isn't an issue. This is fantasy. If a 90% naked man can kill armies, a woman can go a few hours without weeping and keep in character.

I really hate some of the drivel that gets pegged as good characterisation today... and its not just games.

 

[veloper]

Or you boys and girls could be playing puzzle games, 4X games, flight simulators, god games, sim games, racing games, etc. etc.
You are missing out on the good stuff in your crusade.

Trying to look for a less male orientated game in the fighting genre is like trying to find sex&the city in a martial arts B-movie.
It's a hopeless cause. The creators damn well know what their main audience wants and they will not change for you.

 

[Chemical Alia]

http://fcfighter.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/SarahKaufman.jpg

http://www.ztgd.com/images/screenshots/xbox360/doa4/100.jpg

Which one you wanna play?

I have trouble grasping why anyone would seriously prefer the latter in a fighting game. That doesn't even look like a fighter.

 

[DanDeFool]

.
EDIT: I haven't really gotten any answer to my question so far, but I've got a couple of theories going based on the discussion so far.

1: A woman's feelings toward boob jiggle physics are roughly equivalent to what men would experience if we had flaccid penis jiggle physics. In other words, it is physically repulsive to them. Getting rid of this stuff makes games more accessible to women because it's no longer a total gross-out.

2: Getting rid of the boobs and asses wouldn't solve the problem of accessibility, because the T&A isn't the core of the problem. The problem is a lack of characterization in female characters that appeals to women. The idea that the women in these games are strong, independent, heroic, stoic, etc. is not being conveyed through the characterization (what little there is, anyway; we're still talking about fighting games). In this case, my question becomes; what specifically is wrong with the characterization, and how should devs do things differently?

Going to address your edit:

Spoiler

1. To be honest, flaccid penis physics wouldn't offend me... but it doesn't exist. There are no flaccid penises in (unmodded) games. Now I won't go so far to say its sexist... Japan and America both have obscenely ass backwards views on nudity and they are the biggest influence on this topics in games. That absence of penis physics is a result of this more so then it is the result of all male dev teams going "ewww penises".

Fun fact: In the original God of War they had programmed flaccid penis physics for their Cyclops models, but cut the penis (cringe) off of the model... but kept Medusas Nipples (I think, might be an addition to later games) and Kratos's soul spewing romps on the ship.

What do I know, I'm a weird European (actually irish, but I take after my mainland peers rather then my socially repressed catholic natives).

2. Women come in as varied shapes and sizes as Men. Fat, skinny, Broad, short, petite, Tall, Muscular, athletic, flabby... yet Women are always categorised (in fighting games) as athletic, tall/petite and skinny. While men can fit in the entire spectrum, depending on the game. Fat and Muscular, Skinny and Athletic, Tall and broad... etc. This doesn't even come close the highlighting the difference in representation of women in games.

It has nothing to do with Ugliness. There is such a narrow vision of what Women can be presented as in games. I did a gush-tastic review of Enslaved: Odyssey to the West yesterday, but I kept certain reservations out of the equation. I will bring this up now:

Trip, the girl, is literally the single most commonly used body type for women in games. Hour Glass figure, medium/Large bust, pronounced and taut tush. Small and frail (the character is a complete wimp by the way).

Monkey and pigsy (Middle and Left respectfully) on the other hand are so vastly different in presentation. This is good... this is a really good contrast. I loved it.

But when you step back and look at games as a whole... this contrast does not exist for women. The size of the boobs and the size of the ass seems to be the biggest physical differentiator. Flaws are minimal (despite living very dangerous lives, none of them are scarred). Flawless skin, perfect figures etc. Its BORING! This is all the potential female characters you can see in games:
***
Damsel, (Weak, cute, small)
Nerdy, (Smart, weak, cute, small)
Tomboy, (boisterous, cute, strong, small)
Bubbly (Cute, energetic, small)
Brave/Warrior (Sexy, strong, tall)
Tough girl (Cute, Strong, small)
Femme Fatale (Sexy, Strong, small)

Boob size may vary.

To get back to enslaved, why couldn't monkey be some herculian woman? They changed Trip to woman (based on a male monk, tripataka), why couldn't pigsy or Monkey have a gender swap? I mean they could have made Trip into a weak male character and have him be protected by a strong combat worn wild woman with a muscular physique. Or they could have made pigsy, this repulsive mass of repugnance and wit, into a woman too.

There are certain contexts that these role/gender reversals don't work. This might be one of them, but it still highlights the issue I'm getting at: Women are portrayed in a very small spectrum of physical (and characterised) attributes.

And its boring as fuck.

The worst offenders of sexist characters is all in personality though... what women look like in games is only the tip of the iceberg. If Conan can run around in a loincloth wielding a giant greatsword, then a woman can run around in a fur bra and loin cloth too... but a fair portrayal would mean the woman is as physically capable to hold the great sword. That requires noticeable muscular physique, not supple soft skin. But if the Warrior woman requires a man to bail her out of tough situations, or is made to cry soft tears of sorrow, where Conan would just erupt into a furious explosion of violence, there is something wrong. The character been portrayed is being compromised because someone felt that women always weep.

Whether thats true or not in reality isn't an issue. This is fantasy. If a 90% naked man can kill armies, a woman can go a few hours without weeping and keep in character.

I really hate some of the drivel that gets pegged as good characterisation today... and its not just games.

Okay, so what you're saying is that the physical appearance of women in games is INDIRECTLY limiting the characterization and the roles females can play within the narrative. Now I get it.

Thank you, sir.

 

[krazykidd]

I assume that's because the movie industry also has romcoms, whereas AAA games are entirely made for a male market.

That's pretty much exactly it.

The problem isn't that games like DoA exist. The problem is that too many games are like that or don't feature women at all.

Bouncy boobs are perfectly fine, as long as for every pair that's bouncing around there are several realistic and believable female characters.

Games without any women are also perfectly fine, as long as they're the exception and not the rule.

Currently that doesn't really seem to be the case at all.

But woukd those games sell? Is it worth it to take the risk? Would making the games you suggested bring anything worthwhile to the market? Maybe/ maybe not . But personally i don't see it bein worthwhile to try , i could be wrog though.

Capcha: stay safe . This is one of the rare occassions where i think playing it safe is a good idea.

 

[theblindedhunter]

My question is this. Let's say you replace all the unrealistically sexy chicks with women who are proportioned like real female athletes (look for pictures of women from the 2012 Olympics if you need an example; I figure that's pretty reasonable). I feel like this would make the fighting game genre more accessible to women, but I'm having trouble putting my finger on why that is.

I'd think it isn't so much just a "this woman is exceptionally 'mature' and that puts me off" thing that is going on, but something more along the lines of "this woman's 'maturity' is pretty well known to be expressly to pander to the sensibilities of certain men". A girl can essentially know outright that she isn't the intended audience for the game, to the point of exclusion.
There is no part of "jiggle physics" that says "we want girls to be part of this game!" and I think that may be what puts people off, especially women.

I would like to take the time to say, though, in case people hadn't realized, a dislike of DoA isn't limited to women. Personally, I have no interest in the games, specifically because I have no interest in game designers that think of their consumers as people to be lead around by sexuality, their games as sources of soft-core pornography, or women as something something with money-makers attached.
Also, I've never understood what is supposed to be attractive about tits flopping around (to put it crudely) as a woman does something athletic.

 

[runic knight]

The men are strong, powerful, cool and tough. They aren't flashing their nickers and doing everything in their power to make their respective appendages jiggle and they aren't universally made to titillate.

Men in video games: power, strength, leadership, dominance, muscular, handsome
Women in video games: overly sexualized, ditsy, weaker, sex vending machines that respond to goodwill by dropping their panties.

Hyperbole will only drag the discussion down and make you look like an idiot for it. Bit hard to read tone at times and saying things that amount to "all women in games are vapid sluts" will get picked up on and cut apart for the bullshit it is.


Now I could mention that both men and women in your complaint here are uncharacterized story tropes of the simplest sort. A fighting game has little story, the characters would reflect that by being damn near cookie cutter cliche and because of the nature of story telling being tied in with society and the history of women in the past being in less then equal roles, that means that when just pulling cliche stereotypes out to fill a roster, you will get more masculine trait filling males and feminine trait filling females. It is an issue of lack of depth.

I could also go into how fighting games (general sort we are discussing) rely on exaggeration of characters of both genders, with males all being overly muscles mostly handsome shallow deep voiced slates with, as someone else mentioned, usually slower but stronger movesets. Women on the other hand show more apparent female sexual characteristics such as hourglass figure, pretty, tits and ass definition. You always know the gender of the character at a glance because of these exaggeration of secondary sexual characteristics. But, you also know the sort of fighter they are at a glance too. Strong versus fast, simple versus more complex to handle, that sort of thing. Hell, most characters only have as much depth (what little there is) as a result about what their fighting style says about them.

One thing I noticed here, you keep saying you don't care if characters look sexy, yet you seem to rail against it the hardest so your actions contradict your words. Saying crap like "female characters are sex vending machines", especially in a medium that wholesale refuses to show sex in any degree (sexuality, sexual aspects, yes, but never sex itself), well, it makes you look like you are reading too much into how they look. Aside from it being a shallow behavior in and of itself, it expresses more concern with them looking sexualized then with character or lack there of. Honestly, you would do more good for your cause if instead of falling back on what I can only call a religious shaming sort of wording about how women look in games, you should call out the issue as it is and without exaggeration. Female characters are often terribly written, as well as characters in general. Female character models lack variety, though in fighting games, so do males for the most part. Don't spend so much time railing against "well they look sexy" otherwise people will draw the conclusion that it is your main concern. Go for the underlying issues, if they are your true concern.

Bottom line here is, if you look at women in games today and say they are merely sex symbols to masturbate to by teenage boys, then you will be called out for your narrow view and rightfully so. A lot of the characters are enjoyed by people for being characters. Hell some seek out the character in other medium to learn more about them, even if they started in a shallow fighting game. When you try to make broad sweeping generalizations about game characters, you treat anyone listening to you like you think they are too dumb to understand the various facets of detail in the discussion and instead need overly dramatic dichotomies. This in turn leads the audience to either think you are an ill-informed opinion who will be ignored in the same way the Jack Thomsons of the world are, or that you lack an understanding of why things happen the way they do and are merely bitching like a petulant child, again, to the end result of your opinion being disregarded.

Not everyone is content with the status quo in games and fighting games. Hell, with an audience of 210 million in America alone, I am sure a very sizable number are against it. The problem is that people need to fix the underlying issues, else the problems will never go away, merely be given flimsy patches and then excused further because the developers and audience can point at the patch and go "but look, I already addressed that".

 

[Ragsnstitches]

.
EDIT: I haven't really gotten any answer to my question so far, but I've got a couple of theories going based on the discussion so far.

1: A woman's feelings toward boob jiggle physics are roughly equivalent to what men would experience if we had flaccid penis jiggle physics. In other words, it is physically repulsive to them. Getting rid of this stuff makes games more accessible to women because it's no longer a total gross-out.

2: Getting rid of the boobs and asses wouldn't solve the problem of accessibility, because the T&A isn't the core of the problem. The problem is a lack of characterization in female characters that appeals to women. The idea that the women in these games are strong, independent, heroic, stoic, etc. is not being conveyed through the characterization (what little there is, anyway; we're still talking about fighting games). In this case, my question becomes; what specifically is wrong with the characterization, and how should devs do things differently?

Going to address your edit:

Spoiler

1. To be honest, flaccid penis physics wouldn't offend me... but it doesn't exist. There are no flaccid penises in (unmodded) games. Now I won't go so far to say its sexist... Japan and America both have obscenely ass backwards views on nudity and they are the biggest influence on this topics in games. That absence of penis physics is a result of this more so then it is the result of all male dev teams going "ewww penises".

Fun fact: In the original God of War they had programmed flaccid penis physics for their Cyclops models, but cut the penis (cringe) off of the model... but kept Medusas Nipples (I think, might be an addition to later games) and Kratos's soul spewing romps on the ship.

What do I know, I'm a weird European (actually irish, but I take after my mainland peers rather then my socially repressed catholic natives).

2. Women come in as varied shapes and sizes as Men. Fat, skinny, Broad, short, petite, Tall, Muscular, athletic, flabby... yet Women are always categorised (in fighting games) as athletic, tall/petite and skinny. While men can fit in the entire spectrum, depending on the game. Fat and Muscular, Skinny and Athletic, Tall and broad... etc. This doesn't even come close the highlighting the difference in representation of women in games.

It has nothing to do with Ugliness. There is such a narrow vision of what Women can be presented as in games. I did a gush-tastic review of Enslaved: Odyssey to the West yesterday, but I kept certain reservations out of the equation. I will bring this up now:

Trip, the girl, is literally the single most commonly used body type for women in games. Hour Glass figure, medium/Large bust, pronounced and taut tush. Small and frail (the character is a complete wimp by the way).

Monkey and pigsy (Middle and Left respectfully) on the other hand are so vastly different in presentation. This is good... this is a really good contrast. I loved it.

But when you step back and look at games as a whole... this contrast does not exist for women. The size of the boobs and the size of the ass seems to be the biggest physical differentiator. Flaws are minimal (despite living very dangerous lives, none of them are scarred). Flawless skin, perfect figures etc. Its BORING! This is all the potential female characters you can see in games:
***
Damsel, (Weak, cute, small)
Nerdy, (Smart, weak, cute, small)
Tomboy, (boisterous, cute, strong, small)
Bubbly (Cute, energetic, small)
Brave/Warrior (Sexy, strong, tall)
Tough girl (Cute, Strong, small)
Femme Fatale (Sexy, Strong, small)

Boob size may vary.

To get back to enslaved, why couldn't monkey be some herculian woman? They changed Trip to woman (based on a male monk, tripataka), why couldn't pigsy or Monkey have a gender swap? I mean they could have made Trip into a weak male character and have him be protected by a strong combat worn wild woman with a muscular physique. Or they could have made pigsy, this repulsive mass of repugnance and wit, into a woman too.

There are certain contexts that these role/gender reversals don't work. This might be one of them, but it still highlights the issue I'm getting at: Women are portrayed in a very small spectrum of physical (and characterised) attributes.

And its boring as fuck.

The worst offenders of sexist characters is all in personality though... what women look like in games is only the tip of the iceberg. If Conan can run around in a loincloth wielding a giant greatsword, then a woman can run around in a fur bra and loin cloth too... but a fair portrayal would mean the woman is as physically capable to hold the great sword. That requires noticeable muscular physique, not supple soft skin. But if the Warrior woman requires a man to bail her out of tough situations, or is made to cry soft tears of sorrow, where Conan would just erupt into a furious explosion of violence, there is something wrong. The character been portrayed is being compromised because someone felt that women always weep.

Whether thats true or not in reality isn't an issue. This is fantasy. If a 90% naked man can kill armies, a woman can go a few hours without weeping and keep in character.

I really hate some of the drivel that gets pegged as good characterisation today... and its not just games.

Okay, so what you're saying is that the physical appearance of women in games is INDIRECTLY limiting the characterization and the roles females can play within the narrative. Now I get it.

Thank you, sir.

Yeah, for the most part, but I'd say the issue is twofold.

One is what you said, where the limited physical palette (for lack of a better term) affects the kind of roles people will give female characters. I mean how many roles can descriptors like sexy/cute/petite/frail fit in a believable context? Not many and quite often they will just squeeze female characters into the roles that enable those traits.

But thats not always the case, sometimes they put a female character in an unconventional role but trip up on another problem... as mentioned already, the limited number of traits affixed to female characters create jarring issues. Lets go back to the Conan analogy.

Take a look at this image:

I don't have to say much, the character is fierce and intimidating. She looks like she can swing that sword she's holding... and crush a skull with her thighs. Terrifying. And still somewhat attractive in my opinion (weakness for fiery red heads). Also, she has tits and ass... they don't need to NOT exist for fair portrayals.

I spent the last 15 minutes looking through google images with multiple search parameters and could not find a female game character (other then custom made) which depicted a "female barbarian" in such a way. In fact, going exactly by what you said, people don't even give them claymores, instead they get axes, spears and short swords...

... and supple skin. Seriously? She looks like she's in a photo shoot for some magazine. Those axes cannot be light. If she was truly proficient with wielding 2 LARGE axes, she would have some serious muscles. If the Male barbarian turns into the hulk after years of cracking skulls and swinging a 5 foot slap of steel, the female equivalent should at least have some muscle tone.

This is the problem I have. Personally its not really an issue of sexism with me and more an issue with really shitty/repetitive character designs. Overall this is part of a bigger issue which does have sexist implications, but my stake (in this case) is in narrative quality and diversity, not global gender equality.

 

[Hagi]

I assume that's because the movie industry also has romcoms, whereas AAA games are entirely made for a male market.

That's pretty much exactly it.

The problem isn't that games like DoA exist. The problem is that too many games are like that or don't feature women at all.

Bouncy boobs are perfectly fine, as long as for every pair that's bouncing around there are several realistic and believable female characters.

Games without any women are also perfectly fine, as long as they're the exception and not the rule.

Currently that doesn't really seem to be the case at all.

But woukd those games sell? Is it worth it to take the risk? Would making the games you suggested bring anything worthwhile to the market? Maybe/ maybe not . But personally i don't see it bein worthwhile to try , i could be wrog though.

Capcha: stay safe . This is one of the rare occassions where i think playing it safe is a good idea.

Considering how extremely well various franchises who spend more time on their female characters beyond their cup size and colour of their panties do I'd say you're probably wrong.

Mass Effect might still have been big but wouldn't have been this big if Tali and Liara were just two pairs of boobs bouncing around.

Half Life 2 wouldn't have been quite the same without Alyx Vance.

Not trying to imply that those series were successful thanks to their female characters, rather I think it comes with the attitude the developers and writers take in how seriously they take themselves and their audience. Lacking female characters is, imho, merely a side-effect of shallow and lazy game design.

I think there's a lot of room in the market for more games like those two and I think they would sell extremely well.

 

[theblindedhunter]

Take a look at this image:

I don't have to say much, the character is fierce and intimidating. She looks like she can swing that sword she's holding... and crush a skull with her thighs. Terrifying. And still somewhat attractive in my opinion (weakness for fiery red heads). Also, she has tits and ass... they don't need to NOT exist for fair portrayals.

Oh, this is another problem to be had with things like "jiggle physics", and the other pandering representations of females: it is stating that a woman like in the picture above is supposed to be unattractive, in its own way.
And that is absolutely ridiculous.

By the way, what is that picture from? Just someone's art?

 

[Ragsnstitches]

Take a look at this image:

I don't have to say much, the character is fierce and intimidating. She looks like she can swing that sword she's holding... and crush a skull with her thighs. Terrifying. And still somewhat attractive in my opinion (weakness for fiery red heads). Also, she has tits and ass... they don't need to NOT exist for fair portrayals.

Oh, this is another problem to be had with things like "jiggle physics", and the other pandering representations of females: it is stating that a woman like in the picture above is supposed to be unattractive, in its own way.
And that is absolutely ridiculous.

By the way, what is that picture from? Just someone's art?

The picture is just random art (think it might be part of a series, I saw similar ones in my search), but I found it on image compilation list...(May be NSFW). I also think that this compilation illustrates my point even more. This is the only muscular warrior in the list, all the others look like porn stars or models in a photo shoot.
http://wweapons.blogspot.ie/2011/03/warrior-women-fantasy-art-part-4.html

And yeah, there is a very narrow view in media of what constitutes as attractive women. It pisses me off so much. When I saw the show "Ugly Betty", which, god love it, initially tried to make satire of this issue, I was like "What?, thats ugly? Braces and chunky? WHAT!" I felt the collective weight of thousands upon thousands of self concious women suddenly hate themselves...

For one thing, it makes it really hard for me to find girls I find attractive, cause the media is telling them they have to be something artificial... something I don't like.

 

[excalipoor]

Oh, this is another problem to be had with things like "jiggle physics", and the other pandering representations of females: it is stating that a woman like in the picture above is supposed to be unattractive, in its own way.

I highly doubt that she's meant to be unattractive. She still has clearly feminine facial features and a VERY high hip-to-waist ratio. I'd imagine she'd have broader shoulders and narrower hips if they wanted to sell her as unattractive. And replace breasts with pecs. Then there's the fact that she's half naked...

No, I don't see how this is better in any way, other than it offers some variety. She's still designed to be sexy.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

Oh, this is another problem to be had with things like "jiggle physics", and the other pandering representations of females: it is stating that a woman like in the picture above is supposed to be unattractive, in its own way.

I highly doubt that she's meant to be unattractive. She still has clearly feminine facial features and a VERY high hip-to-waist ratio. I'd imagine she'd have broader shoulders and narrower hips if they wanted to sell her as unattractive. And replace breasts with pecs. Then there's the fact that she's half naked...

No, I don't see how this is better in any way, other than it offers some variety. She's still designed to be sexy.

Yeah of course it is... people rarely draw to offend the eyes. The issue lies in the lack of variety. Its not sexist to draw attractive women. But it is an issue when what constitutes attractive is so bloody narrow.

Diversity is the core of the issue. Female characters, in games, lack diversity. This is purely taking it from a physical standpoint. Personality and Character is another issue entirely (and I feel might require a separate thread to discuss).

But what theblindhunter was saying is more Media says women like this are attractive, which consequently makes the shown picture be considered unattractive when the guy/gal who made it drew what they felt worked for the character they wanted to make. I doubt the primary goal of the design of this character, is to tantalise teenagers. They made a barbarian woman, that looks like a barbarian woman... but also made it attractive because you know... men are attracted to women.

There is nothing wrong with attractiveness. There is an issue with pandering.

 

[theblindedhunter]

The picture is just random art (think it might be part of a series, I saw similar ones in my search), but I found it on image compilation list...(May be NSFW). I also think that this compilation illustrates my point even more. This is the only muscular warrior in the list, all the others look like porn stars or models in a photo shoot.
http://wweapons.blogspot.ie/2011/03/warrior-women-fantasy-art-part-4.html

And yeah, there is a very narrow view in media of what constitutes as attractive women. It pisses me off so much. When I saw the show "Ugly Betty", which, god love it, initially tried to make satire of this issue, I was like "What?, thats ugly? Braces and chunky? WHAT!" I felt the collective weight of thousands upon thousands of self concious women suddenly hate themselves...

For one thing, it makes it really hard for me to find girls I find attractive, cause the media is telling them they have to be something artificial... something I don't like.

"With an Irish accent she would say ' aye there wee lad, I am about to rip your heart out and make Haggis'." Ow. My poor brain.

And on the Ugly Betty mention, she was, of course, Hollywood Ugly all around. Not only were the braces, slight weight, and (I think it was meant for the same goal) glasses and slightly unkempt hair meant to be ugly, but apparently you're also ugly when you have flawless skin and pearly white teeth. Huh.

Oh, this is another problem to be had with things like "jiggle physics", and the other pandering representations of females: it is stating that a woman like in the picture above is supposed to be unattractive, in its own way.

I highly doubt that she's meant to be unattractive. She still has clearly feminine facial features and a VERY high hip-to-waist ratio. I'd imagine she'd have broader shoulders and narrower hips if they wanted to sell her as unattractive. And replace breasts with pecs. Then there's the fact that she's half naked...

No, I don't see how this is better in any way, other than it offers some variety. She's still designed to be sexy.

I wasn't saying that that woman was meant to be unattractive, but that choosing perfect-skinned, large-breasted, dainty women over a character like that that is still quite attractive sends a ludicrous message. That without pristine, unmarked skin, no muscle definition, and tits that jiggle and bounce even with a sports bra involved, women just can't be attractive.

My point is that people could have variety, and be making some steps to actually have differently characterized females in games, and still have a sexy character.
She could use some improvement to really hit that barbarian look, certainly, though I don't think her hip-to-waist ratio is that terrible. Also a muscular women does not automatically mean pecs replacing breasts.
Oh, and there is nothing wrong with a woman being half-naked. It should be done with care, and not all the time, certainly, but it is as valid a choice as Conan the Barbarian being half-naked.

 

[excalipoor]

Alright, fair enough.

Also a muscular women does not automatically mean pecs replacing breasts.

This I'm going to have to contest. I have a thing for fitness models/bodybuilders, but I've yet to see one that wasn't (damn near) flat, or didn't have implants. I demand pictures as proof!

 

[theblindedhunter]

Alright, fair enough.

Also a muscular women does not automatically mean pecs replacing breasts.

This I'm going to have to contest. I have a thing for fitness models/bodybuilders, but I've yet to see one that wasn't (damn near) flat, or didn't have implants. I demand pictures as proof!

Bodybuilders =/= all strong women.
But, I suppose it means partly what you mean by flat, and by pecs, and by muscle, and other related phrases. I'm not saying that tons and tons of women have DD breasts and exceptionally muscular figures. There could well be some because people have pretty different bodies, but that's certain not to be the norm because a reduction in body fat does include breasts.
However, there are plenty of women with apparent muscle that have a B or sometimes C cup. Also, when I say muscular, I tend to be thinking toned, not exactly "cut".

As for the woman pictured, it seems fairly evident to me that she has a good degree of body fat, and isn't lacking it to a point of detriment like many bodybuilders do. To go with that, it's hard to judge, but she looks to have something like a C or B cup, with extra help in being pronounced from having muscle beneath.

I would peruse around for pictures to confirm these observations, but the thought of going around on Google images searching for pretty much anything with the word "woman" in it just makes me feel uncomfortable. Also I'm already feeling a bit awkward with all the talking about cup sizes I just did. That's not really a thing I do.

 

[excalipoor]

Snip

You can't really rock abs like that with a reasonable amount of bodyfat. Whatever, I'm just nitpicking. To me all sexy is good sexy, unless the context demands otherwise. I'm sorry Miranda, but the impact of your dramatic past and personal demons is slightly dimished by the cameraman so fixated on your buttocks.