Re: DoA Jiggle Physics - What exactly are we fixing?

[DanDeFool]

http://fcfighter.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/SarahKaufman.jpg

http://www.ztgd.com/images/screenshots/xbox360/doa4/100.jpg

Which one you wanna play?

Well the first one looks like fun to play[footnote]Im gonna burn for that, arent I?[/footnote].

The second im gonna be to focused on the jiggling to be able to even try to string combos together...

I don't see why you would. So you want to play a realistic game about female boxers? Sounds reasonable.

I gotta be honest, I actually like the way the characters are designed in present day fighting games. Unrealistic jiggle physics aside, I don't really have a problem with unrealistic appearances in games; it's basically just fantasy martial arts manga style artwork. I don't find it offensive, but I agree that it's blatantly catering to male sensibilities. What I don't understand is why female gamers find it so offensive that they can't palate games like this.

I think I might be on to something with the big dicks analogy.

 

[DanDeFool]

I don't think it would effect anything as drastic as a role-reversal. You're not trading a male sexual power fantasy for a female one. Or is that not the point?

It's not the point. The solution isn't to swing the sexual fantasy to the other end, but rather to make games more accessible.

Well, okay, but you didn't answer my question. I was asking if a potential role reversal (or any of the other possibilities I mentioned) might be the reason why changing the appearances of the females would make these games more accessible to women.

Any ideas, or are you just here to pull quotes out of context and respond to them while ignoring the main point of the discussion? You know... like just about everyone else that's posted on this thread so far.

 

[Ryotknife]

I dont mind games like DOA existing. I am fine with shallow sexy women as long as they are not used due to laziness or a missed opportunity to make a great game. Neither one of these apply to DOA. The game is like a mindless action flick where the story or characters dont matter. Sure, the movie most likely wont change your life forever or help you grow as a person, but sometimes that is not what you are looking for in a movie.

Is the game shallow? yes. Is that wrong? In this case no as it does not aspire to be anything else. Nor are these games anywhere near the norm, where we are seeing more strong female characters that are NOT sex toys.

Sometimes you are not looking for a deep experience in a game. That is okay. I dont play dynasty warriors for the riveting story, characters, or voice acting that is for damn sure.

 

[DanDeFool]

The only reason I dislike games like DoA is that they encourage this gross seediness in the men that play them. The sort of "underground" Japanese and otaku cultures are... disturbing. There's a trend at the moment in Japan where young men are shunning real women, claiming they are "cheating whores" and "all they want is money." It seems they are content to actually "date" their "perfect" cyber girlfriends.

I wish I was making that up.

So yeah, whatever. People can play DoA all they like. But when there's one hundred examples of objectified sex objects in video games for every one genuine female person, bad things happens. It also kind of makes being a woman that plays games depressing. It'd be nice to enjoy my hobby without having to sit through grotesque sexual pandering and seeing my gender turned into animated sex toys nine times out of ten.

I find this point extremely debatable, for two reasons.

First off, I figure DoA and other fighting games are probably only tangentially related to the Japanese Otaku culture you describe (which, I have no doubt, actually exists). I would argue that dating sims encourage this type of behavior much more than the jiggle physics, and are usually WAAAAY seedier.

The grotesque sexual pandering part I get; so does that mean getting rid of it makes the game more accessible to women because they just find it repulsive otherwise? Kind of like how a man would feel if a game had all kinds of male characters that were naked from the waist down and had their glistening butts and twelve-inch dicks swinging around all over the place? That would answer my question.

P.S.: To all those saying "Oh, well the guys are just as physically extreme as the women"... well, it's not quite the same thing, because (from what I hear, anway) women aren't as turned on by rippling biceps, etc. as men are turned on by big tits. Our sexual attraction mechanisms don't work the same way. Therefore, you can't really say the physical exaggerations are equivalent, because they don't appeal to both genders equally.

Maybe the women on the forum will correct me if I'm wrong.

It's less about how the men and women look, as it is about how they are treated and presented. I have nothing against sexy women in video games--I find both men and women attractive and love seeing a pretty woman. The issue is that the so called "sexualized" men, are always strong, powerful, hero types and the women are stick thin dolls with large breasts that prance around and giggle. Women don't find Marcus from Gears of War attractive. He is large, bulky and strong. He is also a brutish thug. He is a male hero that makes people go "Fuck yeah!" Whereas most of the women in video games aren't given anywhere near as much strength and leadership. Men see the DoA fighters and they see a fuck toy that looks hot. Yeah, they can kick ass, but they don't do it realistically or with any sense of strength. They prance around, flash their underwear when they kick and do everything possible to look sexy for men.

Make attractive male and female characters if you want. Fine. No problem. But stop making every man the epitome of power and heroic badassery, while ninety nine out of a hundred women are ridiculous eye candy and nothing more. Women in video games are men with all the heroics taken away, leaving oversize breasts and open legs in its place.

Okay, I'm still confused. If the problem is the portrayal of their personalities, then why are we focusing on boob jiggling as if that's the main deal? If the problem is characterization, shouldn't we be asking for the devs to fix that instead of complaining about excessive T&A?

 

[Ryotknife]

The only reason I dislike games like DoA is that they encourage this gross seediness in the men that play them. The sort of "underground" Japanese and otaku cultures are... disturbing. There's a trend at the moment in Japan where young men are shunning real women, claiming they are "cheating whores" and "all they want is money." It seems they are content to actually "date" their "perfect" cyber girlfriends.

I wish I was making that up.

So yeah, whatever. People can play DoA all they like. But when there's one hundred examples of objectified sex objects in video games for every one genuine female person, bad things happens. It also kind of makes being a woman that plays games depressing. It'd be nice to enjoy my hobby without having to sit through grotesque sexual pandering and seeing my gender turned into animated sex toys nine times out of ten.

I find this point extremely debatable, for two reasons.

First off, I figure DoA and other fighting games are probably only tangentially related to the Japanese Otaku culture you describe (which, I have no doubt, actually exists). I would argue that dating sims encourage this type of behavior much more than the jiggle physics, and are usually WAAAAY seedier.

The grotesque sexual pandering part I get; so does that mean getting rid of it makes the game more accessible to women because they just find it repulsive otherwise? Kind of like how a man would feel if a game had all kinds of male characters that were naked from the waist down and had their glistening butts and twelve-inch dicks swinging around all over the place? That would answer my question.

P.S.: To all those saying "Oh, well the guys are just as physically extreme as the women"... well, it's not quite the same thing, because (from what I hear, anway) women aren't as turned on by rippling biceps, etc. as men are turned on by big tits. Our sexual attraction mechanisms don't work the same way. Therefore, you can't really say the physical exaggerations are equivalent, because they don't appeal to both genders equally.

Maybe the women on the forum will correct me if I'm wrong.

It's less about how the men and women look, as it is about how they are treated and presented. I have nothing against sexy women in video games--I find both men and women attractive and love seeing a pretty woman. The issue is that the so called "sexualized" men, are always strong, powerful, hero types and the women are stick thin dolls with large breasts that prance around and giggle. Women don't find Marcus from Gears of War attractive. He is large, bulky and strong. He is also a brutish thug. He is a male hero that makes people go "Fuck yeah!" Whereas most of the women in video games aren't given anywhere near as much strength and leadership. Men see the DoA fighters and they see a fuck toy that looks hot. Yeah, they can kick ass, but they don't do it realistically or with any sense of strength. They prance around, flash their underwear when they kick and do everything possible to look sexy for men.

Make attractive male and female characters if you want. Fine. No problem. But stop making every man the epitome of power and heroic badassery, while ninety nine out of a hundred women are ridiculous eye candy and nothing more. Women in video games are men with all the heroics taken away, leaving oversize breasts and open legs in its place.

Okay, I'm still confused. If the problem is the portrayal of their personalities, then why are we focusing on boob jiggling as if that's the main deal? If the problem is characterization, shouldn't we be asking for the devs to fix that instead of complaining about excessive T&A?

Because they are nothing but tits and legs for men to ogle, BECAUSE they have no personality. They are just their body and the games treat women like objects.

and what are the male characters? The reincarnation of Shakespeare? They are all shallow, it is a shallow game. Shallowness is its purpose.

there are two reasons to pick a character in a fighting game. Either you like their fighting style or you like how they look.

you can add strong female fighters to the roster, that will be fine. but saying that sexy females in fighting games are evil is somewhat unreasonable. especially since in this case you will be sabotaging the game which the industry will see as definitive proof that catering to women will have disasterous results. Something we DONT want the industry to think.

 

[DanDeFool]

Okay, I'm still confused. If the problem is the portrayal of their personalities, then why are we focusing on boob jiggling as if that's the main deal? If the problem is characterization, shouldn't we be asking for the devs to fix that instead of complaining about excessive T&A?

Because they are nothing but tits and legs for men to ogle, BECAUSE they have no personality. They are just their body and the games treat women like objects.

Yeah, so, what I'm trying to say is if you get rid of the boobs and asses then there's nothing left. We're talking about this issue as if it can be solved by subtraction, when it needs to be solved with addition; the addition of strong female characterization. Women have boobs. Women have asses. Women ALSO have personalities. What I'm hearing is that we've got the first two down, now we need to get the third one down as well.

Now, frankly, I don't think we need strong characterization for ANY CHARACTER in a fighting game, because fighting games rarely have a story worth bothering with, but maybe what characterization is there (e.g., what's portrayed by a character's voice acting, demeanor, special moves, ect.) could be improved in this way.

 

[darlarosa]

IN my view it is unsettling to constantly have these characters that are objectified and sexified. Of course no one can argue that sexy is a bad thing, but it is just the constantness of it. It feels weird playing this ultra sexualized character...almost uncomfortable at times.It is an odd feeling to load up a game and feel like your playing a stripper...and then to realize the only characters that are available are mostly strippers.More than that most of the time its such a boring definition of sexy too. I think I find problems with that more than appearance...I hate things dictating to me what I should call sexy. To me nothing is more off putting than a whore...its so obvious....and skeezy.
That and not all women dress sexy...sexy should reflect the character....and it rarely does

fun fact...I have large tatas....but they never fall into jiggle physics territory. In fact if jiggle physics were real life applicable they would kinda hurt after a while.

 

[MrHide-Patten]

Here's the thing as I see it.

DOA exists? It's team acknowledges that it's goofy male fantasy fun? Okay, that's great. Have at it.

But when that same team tries to make an actual female in an actual narrative while they have that same attitude towards women, what happens?

Metroid: Other M happens.

Yeah. That.

All the more reason that they should be preoccupied with other games series's and not be allowed to touch things that take themselves a tad more seriously.

But really, it was Nintendo, it was fucked as soon as it was announced.

 

[toapat]

The simple fact is, everything in Fighting Games is power fantasy or softcore porn when it comes to character models.

the reason all female models are softcore is because the other option is to make the female characters look realistic, but then they all look like little kids (because tall and thin is good for things like the Olympics, but not combat), and so there comes the whole child porn issue.

 

[MrHide-Patten]

While true for TV, I still disagree about movies. Most blockbuster movies will have a 'star' attached to them, most of whom are not representative of the majority of people.

I do agree however that when you have realistic people in the roles it is so much more immersive. This is probably the reason that TV shows are actually generally better than most blockbuster films at current. Breaking Bad has a fantastic cast and because all of them are perfectly suited for their role, you get behind the story so much more.

If Matt Daymon played Walter White (I am sure Hollywood would deem anyone near the correct age 'too old' for a mainstream audience) it would break all immersion.

I think perhaps you should take a look at movies that don't have massive posters at your local cinema.

There's a lot of extremely good stuff with amazing characters to be found outside of the very, very small selection of blockbusters.

Oh indeed there are. But I am referring to blockbusters here as they are the equivalent of AAA titles in games.

We do have realistic women in games, most however are from indie or less mainstream titles. Such is the same in the film industry.

I'd sooner equate movie blockbusters with well... game blockbusters (CoD, Battlefield, Mass Effect etc.) rather than all AAA titles.

There's quite a few AAA titles that aren't blockbusters just like there are quite a few movies from the big studios (that also have reasonably big budgets) that aren't blockbusters either.

I think it's that range of movies and games mainly that's able to both reach a large audience (which only a very select number of indie games/movies achieve) as well as provide more believable characters (which only a very select number of blockbusters achieve).

Movies seem to be doing so quite regularly with quality movies that have both a decent budget and depth coming out all the time.

Games seem to be lagging severely behind with quality games that have any real depth being quite rare.

I agree actually, as I've never played Mass Effect and thus haven't played ME3, I can't actually think of a major release this year (off the top of my head) that's had a really great story with it. Sleeping Dogs has promise (I haven't completed it yet) but apparently the ending is a let down.

ME3 apparently has a good story right until the infamous last 5%. It's the only game I can think of that's been release this year with a 'decent' story to it.

For most games story seems to take a backseat, this has been getting better in recent years - however dev's keep trying to sell their story as being the focus the game was built around and how it's going to blow us away, but most seem to fall short.

I am not sure why it's so hard to tell a fantastic story using the medium of games - you'd think with all the money that was being thrown at achieving it they'd hit the mark more often.

More often than not they bring in writers who work for TV and film and the process doesn't translate well. Basically with all the other aspects to a game comapred to a movie, there can be a lot of internal conflicts.

With a Movie you've only really got the story (or if you're Micheal Bay, Explosions), but with games you've got to juggle the gameplay with the story.

 

[Ryotknife]

The only reason I dislike games like DoA is that they encourage this gross seediness in the men that play them. The sort of "underground" Japanese and otaku cultures are... disturbing. There's a trend at the moment in Japan where young men are shunning real women, claiming they are "cheating whores" and "all they want is money." It seems they are content to actually "date" their "perfect" cyber girlfriends.

I wish I was making that up.

So yeah, whatever. People can play DoA all they like. But when there's one hundred examples of objectified sex objects in video games for every one genuine female person, bad things happens. It also kind of makes being a woman that plays games depressing. It'd be nice to enjoy my hobby without having to sit through grotesque sexual pandering and seeing my gender turned into animated sex toys nine times out of ten.

I find this point extremely debatable, for two reasons.

First off, I figure DoA and other fighting games are probably only tangentially related to the Japanese Otaku culture you describe (which, I have no doubt, actually exists). I would argue that dating sims encourage this type of behavior much more than the jiggle physics, and are usually WAAAAY seedier.

The grotesque sexual pandering part I get; so does that mean getting rid of it makes the game more accessible to women because they just find it repulsive otherwise? Kind of like how a man would feel if a game had all kinds of male characters that were naked from the waist down and had their glistening butts and twelve-inch dicks swinging around all over the place? That would answer my question.

P.S.: To all those saying "Oh, well the guys are just as physically extreme as the women"... well, it's not quite the same thing, because (from what I hear, anway) women aren't as turned on by rippling biceps, etc. as men are turned on by big tits. Our sexual attraction mechanisms don't work the same way. Therefore, you can't really say the physical exaggerations are equivalent, because they don't appeal to both genders equally.

Maybe the women on the forum will correct me if I'm wrong.

It's less about how the men and women look, as it is about how they are treated and presented. I have nothing against sexy women in video games--I find both men and women attractive and love seeing a pretty woman. The issue is that the so called "sexualized" men, are always strong, powerful, hero types and the women are stick thin dolls with large breasts that prance around and giggle. Women don't find Marcus from Gears of War attractive. He is large, bulky and strong. He is also a brutish thug. He is a male hero that makes people go "Fuck yeah!" Whereas most of the women in video games aren't given anywhere near as much strength and leadership. Men see the DoA fighters and they see a fuck toy that looks hot. Yeah, they can kick ass, but they don't do it realistically or with any sense of strength. They prance around, flash their underwear when they kick and do everything possible to look sexy for men.

Make attractive male and female characters if you want. Fine. No problem. But stop making every man the epitome of power and heroic badassery, while ninety nine out of a hundred women are ridiculous eye candy and nothing more. Women in video games are men with all the heroics taken away, leaving oversize breasts and open legs in its place.

Okay, I'm still confused. If the problem is the portrayal of their personalities, then why are we focusing on boob jiggling as if that's the main deal? If the problem is characterization, shouldn't we be asking for the devs to fix that instead of complaining about excessive T&A?

Because they are nothing but tits and legs for men to ogle, BECAUSE they have no personality. They are just their body and the games treat women like objects.

and what are the male characters? The reincarnation of Shakespeare? They are all shallow, it is a shallow game. Shallowness is its purpose.

there are two reasons to pick a character in a fighting game. Either you like their fighting style or you like how they look.

The men are strong, powerful, cool and tough. They aren't flashing their nickers and doing everything in their power to make their respective appendages jiggle and they aren't universally made to titillate.

Men in video games: power, strength, leadership, dominance, muscular, handsome
Women in video games: overly sexualized, ditsy, weaker, sex vending machines that respond to goodwill by dropping their panties.

Then i would argue you are entitled to your view, but it doesnt make it the truth.

I dont see men as powerful, strength, leadership, dominance, muscular, handsome and I am a guy.

In fighting games, i see them as bigger hitbox, more powerful attacks, slower, less responsive, and reactive fighting style.

advantages and disadvantages

females are smaller, faster, do less damage with attacks, higher technical skill, require an aggressive fighting style, and often perform acrobatics which may confuse the enemy.

advantages and disadvantages

If your view was truth, there would be no reason from a competitive standpoint to play as a female character EVER. I play as Hayate because i like his style. I dont play him because guys are supposedly the paragons of awesome like you mentioned. in fact i HATE his character (what little there is).

In fact, lets look at the male characters of DOA shall we (keep in mind this is from my experience in DOA2-3)?

Bass - kind hearted, but a freakin moron and old fashioned. a bit of a redneck.
Zack- wacky absent minded idiot
Jann Lee- pretty awesome dude, but reckless and cocky
Leon- has the personality of a brick
Gen fu- a kind hearted old man, not as energetic or strong as the other male characters.
Ryu- typical awesome ninja
Hayate- has the largest stick in the world up his bum

WOOO, look at those paragons of awesomeness!

 

[excalipoor]

Okay, I'm still confused. If the problem is the portrayal of their personalities, then why are we focusing on boob jiggling as if that's the main deal? If the problem is characterization, shouldn't we be asking for the devs to fix that instead of complaining about excessive T&A?

Because Boudica has seen a couple of screenshots of Xtreme Beach Volleyball and has decided that it's bad, and everyone should feel bad. Basically, she doesn't have a clue what she's talking about.

Might as well extend the argument to any fighting game character ever, because DoA characters get the same amount of characterization as any other fighter series: the bare minimum. Fighting game characters have always been all about style over substance. That said, Kasumi has more personality and backstory than Chun-li ever did. And why is handsome a positive character trait, but sexy is not?

Yeah, I first got into the series at age 11 because of tits. I stayed because it's a legitimately fun fighter. Also, any problems Japan has are not caused by jiggle physics. Their cultural issues with gender are rooted far deeper, and this is by no means a recent development.

Oh, and please don't presume to know what others find attractive. Just because it applies to you and happens to fit your argument doesn't mean it's right. Are you capable of posting anything but vapid generalizations?

I'm done. It feels like repeatedly facepalming with a brick in my hand.

 

[Ryotknife]

Saying that sexy females in fighting games are evil is somewhat unreasonable

Did you even read what I said before hitting quote?

" I have nothing against sexy women in video games--I find both men and women attractive and love seeing a pretty woman."

"Make attractive male and female characters if you want. Fine. No problem. But stop making every man the epitome of power and heroic badassery, while ninety nine out of a hundred women are ridiculous eye candy and nothing more. Women in video games are men with all the heroics taken away, leaving oversize breasts and open legs in its place."

oh please, it is nowhere even remotely in that ratio. Even in DOA which is an extreme case it is nowhere near that ratio. Hell, it wasnt like that 10 YEARS ago when this gender climate was much worse. Male characters, at least the straight ones, are stuck in an infinite loop of the same few stereotypes we have seen over and over for the past...what...4 years?

The past two years prove this. In fact the gap between female characters and male characters is rapidly closing, to the point where female characters are starting to become the main hope for fresh characters.

Sex objects are pretty much the exception to the rule nowadays, and that is a good thing.

 

[evilneko]

http://fcfighter.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/SarahKaufman.jpg

http://www.ztgd.com/images/screenshots/xbox360/doa4/100.jpg

Which one you wanna play?

The first one! I can feel the punch from here lol.

besides, why not have both? The only real grumble I have (and generally see) against BOBBIESBOOBIESBOOBIES is that all we get is BOOBIESBOOBIESBOOBIES. Can we get Buff Tuff Lady as well as BOOBIESBOOBIESBOOBIES?

The only reason I dislike games like DoA is that they encourage this gross seediness in the men that play them. The sort of "underground" Japanese and otaku cultures are... disturbing. There's a trend at the moment in Japan where young men are shunning real women, claiming they are "cheating whores" and "all they want is money." It seems they are content to actually "date" their "perfect" cyber girlfriends.

I wish I was making that up.

Date, hell--they've been known to marry them. Totally not making that up. [http://www.anigamers.com/2009/11/japanese-man-marries-dating-sim.html]

And then there's the Korean guy who married his Fate Testarossa pillow. I mean, yeah, Fate's hot, especially young, flat-chested Fate, but come on!

 

[lord.jeff]

T and A have there place, and DOA is one of them, where the creators openly omit to the characters being nothing more bouncing flesh, the problem happens when you don't have games providing the same service fr the female audience or you put to much T and A into a serious character.

 

[DanDeFool]

Okay, I'm still confused. If the problem is the portrayal of their personalities, then why are we focusing on boob jiggling as if that's the main deal? If the problem is characterization, shouldn't we be asking for the devs to fix that instead of complaining about excessive T&A?

Because Boudica has seen a couple of screenshots of Xtreme Beach Volleyball and has decided that it's bad, and everyone should feel bad. Basically, she doesn't have a clue what she's talking about.

Might as well extend the argument to any fighting game character ever, because DoA characters get the same amount of characterization as any other fighter series: the bare minimum. Fighting game characters have always been all about style over substance. That said, Kasumi has more personality and backstory than Chun-li ever did. And why is handsome a positive character trait, but sexy is not?

Yeah, I first got into the series at age 11 because of tits. I stayed because it's a legitimately fun fighter. Also, any problems Japan has are not caused by jiggle physics. Their cultural issues with gender are rooted far deeper, and this is by no means a recent development.

Oh, and please don't presume to know what others find attractive. Just because it applies to you and happens to fit your argument doesn't mean it's right. Are you capable of posting anything but vapid generalizations?

I'm done. It feels like repeatedly facepalming with a brick in my hand.

Who, me? First of all, sir (or ma'am), I'm well aware that I don't have an all-encompassing knowledge of this issue (the reason why many of my replies have been phrased as questions). The whole reason I started this thread is because I didn't understand why getting rid of boob jiggle physics solves the problem of making games more accessible to women. Yes, I do like the aesthetic of video games like DoA, but I'm well aware that other people might be interested in something else.

I try my best to avoid making generalizations, but I guess I do. Sorry.

If you were referring to someone else, please be careful about addressing someone as "you" when using the quote feature, since it ends up in the inbox of the person you quoted.