Religion clashes with Laws

[ElephantGuts]

I believe that if you come to live in a country you agree to follow their laws, and ignorance is not an excuse. And the country's laws are superior to your religion's laws. Seperation of church and state. If you don't like it then don't come to America.

 

[LisaB1138]

Oh really, this coming from someone who hasn't even asked for proof. I could simpy go over how they react the same way to the same gorups. how they treated women the same, both chauvanistic, both egotistical, both homophobic, both slaughtered billions of innocents for not being part of their religion.

Your lameness is epic. I don't dispute there are some denominations of Christianity that are, quite frankly, un-Christian, but their behaviors are not biblically based. Read the Gospels and show me where Jesus treated women like second class citizens, where he berated homosexuals, or encouraged his followers to kill people for not being Christian? I know you won't look for fear of learning something you don't want to know, so I'll sum up: it isn't there. I am not Muslim, so I cannot speak for the Koran. Perhaps someone with real knowledge and not generalizations will turn up to help you.

I can't even begin to tell in how many ways you've oversimplified, generalized, and are flat out wrong about religion. Have bad things happened because of religion? Certainly. Have people been persecuted because of their religion? Absolutely. But you are incredibly naive and uninformed if you don't realize those things happen anyway, and quite often religion was only invoked to justify taking of land or other wealth, not because there was any religious mandate to do so.

At any rate, religion has no monopoly on persecution. How many people are in jail in China for their political views? How many people died in the killing fields of Cambodia for failure to be "re-educated?" How many people were sent to Siberia for making a Stalin joke? Indeed, it is often religious organizations that step in first to ease the suffering when tragedy strikes.

You're hypocrisy is somewhat interesting. People have been killed because of the internet. It's a great facilitator for murderers, I understand. Why on earth would you have anything to do with it? Ooooh! That's just bad people using something that's meant to be good to do a bad thing. Gosh, who woulda thunk it?

 

[Impuls]

The shit that has children being forced to marry adult men? That's wrong, I don't care what your religion says.

You could say that what you say is also a point of view and in a over philosiful way "religious".

but now I am going to drift off from the topic

ps. this does not mean i disagree with your statement

 

[MagnetoHydroDynamics]

Antidisestablismentarianism.

I think somebody needs to loose their jobs.

 

[BringBackBuck]

Oh really, this coming from someone who hasn't even asked for proof. I could simpy go over how they react the same way to the same gorups. how they treated women the same, both chauvanistic, both egotistical, both homophobic, both slaughtered billions of innocents for not being part of their religion.

Your lameness is epic. I don't dispute there are some denominations of Christianity that are, quite frankly, un-Christian, but their behaviors are not biblically based. Read the Gospels and show me where Jesus treated women like second class citizens, where he berated homosexuals, or encouraged his followers to kill people for not being Christian? I know you won't look for fear of learning something you don't want to know, so I'll sum up: it isn't there. I am not Muslim, so I cannot speak for the Koran. Perhaps someone with real knowledge and not generalizations will turn up to help you.

I can't even begin to tell in how many ways you've oversimplified, generalized, and are flat out wrong about religion. Have bad things happened because of religion? Certainly. Have people been persecuted because of their religion? Absolutely. But you are incredibly naive and uninformed if you don't realize those things happen anyway, and quite often religion was only invoked to justify taking of land or other wealth, not because there was any religious mandate to do so.

At any rate, religion has no monopoly on persecution. How many people are in jail in China for their political views? How many people died in the killing fields of Cambodia for failure to be "re-educated?" How many people were sent to Siberia for making a Stalin joke? Indeed, it is often religious organizations that step in first to ease the suffering when tragedy strikes.

You're hypocrisy is somewhat interesting. People have been killed because of the internet. It's a great facilitator for murderers, I understand. Why on earth would you have anything to do with it? Ooooh! That's just bad people using something that's meant to be good to do a bad thing. Gosh, who woulda thunk it?

Are you sure your bible does not treat women like second class citizens or encourage its followers to kill people for not being Christian?


Genesis 3:16 "Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

Colossians 3:18 "Wives submit to your husbands, as is fitting to the Lord."

Chronicles 15:13 "That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death"

 

[Azraellod]

Oh really, this coming from someone who hasn't even asked for proof. I could simpy go over how they react the same way to the same gorups. how they treated women the same, both chauvanistic, both egotistical, both homophobic, both slaughtered billions of innocents for not being part of their religion.

Your lameness is epic. I don't dispute there are some denominations of Christianity that are, quite frankly, un-Christian, but their behaviors are not biblically based. Read the Gospels and show me where Jesus treated women like second class citizens, where he berated homosexuals, or encouraged his followers to kill people for not being Christian? I know you won't look for fear of learning something you don't want to know, so I'll sum up: it isn't there. I am not Muslim, so I cannot speak for the Koran. Perhaps someone with real knowledge and not generalizations will turn up to help you.

I can't even begin to tell in how many ways you've oversimplified, generalized, and are flat out wrong about religion. Have bad things happened because of religion? Certainly. Have people been persecuted because of their religion? Absolutely. But you are incredibly naive and uninformed if you don't realize those things happen anyway, and quite often religion was only invoked to justify taking of land or other wealth, not because there was any religious mandate to do so.

At any rate, religion has no monopoly on persecution. How many people are in jail in China for their political views? How many people died in the killing fields of Cambodia for failure to be "re-educated?" How many people were sent to Siberia for making a Stalin joke? Indeed, it is often religious organizations that step in first to ease the suffering when tragedy strikes.

You're hypocrisy is somewhat interesting. People have been killed because of the internet. It's a great facilitator for murderers, I understand. Why on earth would you have anything to do with it? Ooooh! That's just bad people using something that's meant to be good to do a bad thing. Gosh, who woulda thunk it?

Are you sure your bible does not treat women like second class citizens or encourage its followers to kill people for not being Christian?


Genesis 3:16 "Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

Colossians 3:18 "Wives submit to your husbands, as is fitting to the Lord."

Chronicles 15:13 "That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death"

got to say, that sounds far more like old testament then new testament bible quotes.

anyway, the bible was influenced by the culture around which it was based when it was written. if those are indeed old testament quotes, then most christians would consider them to be outdated. im not saying all would, but pretty much all of those that i know (including me) are.

and in any case, this is unlikely to havee any bearing because part of what jesus taught was to OBEY THE LAW. if killing people and treating your wife badly is against the law, then dont freaking do it.

say i were to go out and burn all the non-belivers. this is correct in the old testament (probably), but definitely wrong in the new testament. since the new testament is more up to date, then i have done the wrong thing, and i am not a good christian. so unless i have got this wrong and those are new testament, point invalid

Ok first: you realise islam and christianity and Islam are exactly the same religion just rebranded and repackaged right? Both made up by power hungry idiots centuries-millenia ago right?

This is such an incredibly ignorant statement I can't believe you actually want even an internet alias tied to it.

naw dog naw
religion was created by the man to kill babies and control people
it couldn't possibly have any other motives.

I love it when morons like jasoncyrus above have such appallingly close minded and STUPID ideas and effectively prove themselves more insular and uninformed than the most conservative christian or muslim.

Oh really, this coming from someone who hasn't even asked for proof. I could simpy go over how they react the same way to the same gorups. how they treated women the same, both chauvanistic, both egotistical, both homophobic, both slaughtered billions of innocents for not being part of their religion.

the list goes on and on and on.

It is not I who is uninformed. It is YOU friend who has failed to see the facts. But why bother trying to reason with closed minded people who refuse to look beyond the surface of something and see the details, the big picture as it were.

Ok first: you realise islam and christianity and Islam are exactly the same religion just rebranded and repackaged right? Both made up by power hungry idiots centuries-millenia ago right?

This is such an incredibly ignorant statement I can't believe you actually want even an internet alias tied to it.

To you i say the same as the previous, If you'd bothered to do ANY research on both of them in a long term time scale and theological evolution, you'll see they both follow the same path. Only difference is one happens in the third world, the other in the developed world.

Feel free to keep being arrogant and ignorant of such things, you're doing a *bang up job* of making yourselves look foolish.

@Azraellod: Looked it up just to be sure and guess what! that describes BOTH religion *perfectly*.

I'm allowed to be hypocritical, I dont worship a religion that butchered billions of people for being different.

So because someone is a christian or muslim and they commit atrocities it is the religions fault and not their own?
thats rich, maybe if a someone listens to music with violent lyrics and kills someone we should put the musician on trial and not the one who comitted the crime. I'll rephrase my previous remark about you being uninformed, your logic is just broken. So let me help your small brain along with this tidbit of information. Morally corrupt INDIVIDUALS munipulate and trick PEOPLE into using religion as an excuse for violence. As such your MINDLESS and frankly disturbing hatred for apparently all religion is very very misplaced. Perhaps if you actually did some research into what whatever religion you have beef with actually stands for as opposed to what despots and manics who used it as a smokescreen, used it to do.

Actually it's more of a blatant contempt for christianity and muslims (who ever heard of a bhuddist comiting mass genocide?)

And just to use your own quite frankly stupid linear logic, its clear that pretty much every single major maniac from The salem witch trials to Hitler to todays villians etc were either Christian or muslim. No bhuddists, no hindus no jews etc etc. This shows that both Islam and Christianity are inherinantly evil if they just by some happy coincidence happen to the religion of choice for our worlds atrocity committing maniacs.

As for people commiting crimes because of violent media. Obviously you've been living in a hole for the past decade or so as the politicians have go one a miniature crusade against violent games and to a certain point violent music.

And as I stated in my last few posts, I've done plenty of research on christianity and unlike you i know exactly what it was built on, intolerance and the blood of innocent people.

i do not see what it is initially built on to be relevant. if it was initially built on this, ok fine, but your problem here is your inability to distuinguish people out of a group, and past from present. i have no desire to wander around to the houses of random innocent people who just happen to not belive in god, and kill them all slowly and painfully. i do not consider those who claim to be christian and act like this of the same religeon as me.

also, you said that you have the right to be hypocritical??? i never said you didnt have that right, but it doesnt exactly strengthen your arguement. you have every right to despise whatever you please, but really, try to be more civil about it

 

[LANCE420]

This is ridiculous and unacceptable in a modern western society.

The man should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

 

[Chaingang]

Insinuating that you have knowledge that I have or have not read the Bible is saying that you have knowledge about me. Seeing as you have none at all, I'd advise you to stick to what you know. I've read the Bible, and I dont think it was telling me to go and kill atheists and witches just because they are. It was saying dont consort with them. Dont have anything to do with them. I'm not saying the Bible is right in all the things it says, but by saying that the Bible was gory (which we know it was. It had the Romans in it, the most violent people in history, remember?) you're stereotyping Christians, and by association, Muslims -who borrowed ideas from Christianity- as bloodthirsty witch hunters.

It was only logical to assume that you have not read it since you talked about forgiveness which is exactly the opposite of what Bible says. You are accusing me of stereotyping Christians and Muslims, yet I have only said facts about their holy books (supposed to be the core of their religion) and not a word of their followers. I also quoted a part of bible that clearly orders to kill all witches (Exodus 22:18), as you asked.
Please dont make claims like that unless you have something to back it with, it will only upset people.

I'm starting to doubt your sanity in this matter. I'm not sure what bible youve been reading, but I'm fairly certain that Jesus was the guy in the robe preaching about forgiveness. I dont know, it might have been some other religious figure.... oh wait, they all preached that, didnt they? And what, may I ask, have I proposed that I have not backed up in the right manner? Please inform me, and I'll be glad to crucify you with religious knowledge.

 

[jasoncyrus]

Oh really, this coming from someone who hasn't even asked for proof. I could simpy go over how they react the same way to the same gorups. how they treated women the same, both chauvanistic, both egotistical, both homophobic, both slaughtered billions of innocents for not being part of their religion.

Your lameness is epic. I don't dispute there are some denominations of Christianity that are, quite frankly, un-Christian, but their behaviors are not biblically based. Read the Gospels and show me where Jesus treated women like second class citizens, where he berated homosexuals, or encouraged his followers to kill people for not being Christian? I know you won't look for fear of learning something you don't want to know, so I'll sum up: it isn't there. I am not Muslim, so I cannot speak for the Koran. Perhaps someone with real knowledge and not generalizations will turn up to help you.

I can't even begin to tell in how many ways you've oversimplified, generalized, and are flat out wrong about religion. Have bad things happened because of religion? Certainly. Have people been persecuted because of their religion? Absolutely. But you are incredibly naive and uninformed if you don't realize those things happen anyway, and quite often religion was only invoked to justify taking of land or other wealth, not because there was any religious mandate to do so.

At any rate, religion has no monopoly on persecution. How many people are in jail in China for their political views? How many people died in the killing fields of Cambodia for failure to be "re-educated?" How many people were sent to Siberia for making a Stalin joke? Indeed, it is often religious organizations that step in first to ease the suffering when tragedy strikes.

You're hypocrisy is somewhat interesting. People have been killed because of the internet. It's a great facilitator for murderers, I understand. Why on earth would you have anything to do with it? Ooooh! That's just bad people using something that's meant to be good to do a bad thing. Gosh, who woulda thunk it?

See its quite frankly stupid people like you who make my job so very easy.

No matter what something turns into, it is still founded on quite frankly, the most horrific foundations in this world.

If Neo-nazi's suddenly turned into the best supporters of the RSPCA and stopped all the negative things they ar famous for, people mwouldn't forgive them for it, EVER. So why should christianity be forgiven for the BILLIONS they have slaughtered for being different?

Someone above asked how many china and russia persecuted for speaking out. A FRACTION of what christianity alone has exterminated for their various reason. a tiny FRACTION of the billions upon billions of innocent lives.

No matter what you say about christianity now, the blood of those billiosn is STILL on each and every single one of your hands.

"Anything born of evil will always be evil." Christianity is no exception.

 

[LisaB1138]

If Neo-nazi's suddenly turned into the best supporters of the RSPCA and stopped all the negative things they ar famous for, people mwouldn't forgive them for it, EVER. So why should christianity be forgiven for the BILLIONS they have slaughtered for being different?

Someone above asked how many china and russia persecuted for speaking out. A FRACTION of what christianity alone has exterminated for their various reason. a tiny FRACTION of the billions upon billions of innocent lives.

No matter what you say about christianity now, the blood of those billiosn is STILL on each and every single one of your hands.

"Anything born of evil will always be evil." Christianity is no exception.

Again, your lack of knowledge embarasses you. You do realize there are more people alive on the planet at this moment that have lived throughout all of history? These "billions" you're counting are none existent. The earth didn't even reach one billion people until around 1800 AD. Considering you're counting the crusades, New World exploration and I have no doubt, the Spanish inquisition into these numbers, I have no idea where all these murdered BILLIONS went.

The crusades are estimated to have killed around 9 million total. Roughly half are Christians themselves. Jews killed by Germany in WWII: 6 million. Number of Soviets estimated to have died under Stalin: 20 million. Deaths under Khmer Rouge: 1-2 million (at least 1/7th the entire population.) Deaths in China after Mao--one site goes in stages there are so many millions.

Look, I'm not excusing anyone's wrongdoing. I'm just saying you're grossly overstating your case, which was on wafer-thin reason to begin with. I really don't think you know much about history or culture. Form an opinion based on real knowledge, not someone else's internet rant.

But the numbers speak the truth: today you have far more to fear from your government than religion.

 

[Lord_Ascendant]

Its part of their Faith, but sometimes things go beyond what is allowable by Faith and into Criminal Acts. Its not like we can erase this bit of Shari'a Law but we can punish those who try to practice it in our country.

 

[Cliff_m85]

Religion does get special treatment.

"Hello, I'm a cancer patient in Michigan. I can barely eat and constantly feel pain. Marijuana could lessen the pain and allow me to eat more."
Response from government: "Sorry, but weed is bad...mmmmkay? You can't smoke it because it's bad....mmmkay?"

"Hello, I joined up with the Coptic religion. I smoke pot because it's part of my *snicker* RELIGIOUS beliefs."
Response from government: "Ok, ok, ok!!!! Just don't sue us!!! We respect all forms of faith!"

Or how about this....

"Hello, I like to place a child's penis in my mouth after I cut it a little bit. I suck on it until all the blood stops flowing and then spit what I cut into a little silver tray. Sure this procedure has caused some children to die either from the bleeding or from STD's, but it's something I do......
Response from government: "You sick bastard! You're going away for a long time!!!"

additional sentence added at end: "and I am a Jewish mohel. When I do those actions I do it due to deeply held religious beliefs."
Response from government: "Oh, then carry on....just don't sue us!!!!"

 

[Cliff_m85]

If Neo-nazi's suddenly turned into the best supporters of the RSPCA and stopped all the negative things they ar famous for, people mwouldn't forgive them for it, EVER. So why should christianity be forgiven for the BILLIONS they have slaughtered for being different?

Someone above asked how many china and russia persecuted for speaking out. A FRACTION of what christianity alone has exterminated for their various reason. a tiny FRACTION of the billions upon billions of innocent lives.

No matter what you say about christianity now, the blood of those billiosn is STILL on each and every single one of your hands.

"Anything born of evil will always be evil." Christianity is no exception.

Again, your lack of knowledge embarasses you. You do realize there are more people alive on the planet at this moment that have lived throughout all of history? These "billions" you're counting are none existent. The earth didn't even reach one billion people until around 1800 AD. Considering you're counting the crusades, New World exploration and I have no doubt, the Spanish inquisition into these numbers, I have no idea where all these murdered BILLIONS went.

The crusades are estimated to have killed around 9 million total. Roughly half are Christians themselves. Jews killed by Germany in WWII: 6 million. Number of Soviets estimated to have died under Stalin: 20 million. Deaths under Khmer Rouge: 1-2 million (at least 1/7th the entire population.) Deaths in China after Mao--one site goes in stages there are so many millions.

Look, I'm not excusing anyone's wrongdoing. I'm just saying you're grossly overstating your case, which was on wafer-thin reason to begin with. I really don't think you know much about history or culture. Form an opinion based on real knowledge, not someone else's internet rant.

But the numbers speak the truth: today you have far more to fear from your government than religion.

I disagree, but I guess you are only talking about one country here. My question to you would be: Don't those two walk hand in hand here in America?

 

[LisaB1138]

Are you sure your bible does not treat women like second class citizens or encourage its followers to kill people for not being Christian?

Genesis 3:16 "Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

Colossians 3:18 "Wives submit to your husbands, as is fitting to the Lord."

Chronicles 15:13 "That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death"

Read closely: I said show me where Jesus said it. It ain't there. You've got two old Testament references, *yawn* and one New Testament from a letter written by Paul, a Roman and former persecutor of Christians to the people of Collosae. Considering the times in which it was written, I don't find the text surprising. Paul is a product of his culture, and failure to place the remark in it's proper context is irresponsible. As one of my ministers was fond of saying "I'm a Christian, not a Paulist. Therefore I give more weight to what Jesus said that what Paul said."

Of course, you don't need to look far to see women treated poorly for merely being women. I daresay most of men on this board snicker at girls when they play basketball or video games,and thought Sarah Palin was a VPILF. A bit harsh to come down on Paul when he really didn't know anything else. What's today's guy's excuse?

 

[Cliff_m85]

Are you sure your bible does not treat women like second class citizens or encourage its followers to kill people for not being Christian?

Genesis 3:16 "Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

Colossians 3:18 "Wives submit to your husbands, as is fitting to the Lord."

Chronicles 15:13 "That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death"

Read closely: I said show me where Jesus said it. It ain't there. You've got two old Testament references, *yawn* and one New Testament from a letter written by Paul, a Roman and former persecutor of Christians to the people of Collosae. Considering the times in which it was written, I don't find the text surprising. Paul is a product of his culture, and failure to place the remark in it's proper context is irresponsible. As one of my ministers was fond of saying "I'm a Christian, not a Paulist. Therefore I give more weight to what Jesus said that what Paul said."

Of course, you don't need to look far to see women treated poorly for merely being women. I daresay most of men on this board snicker at girls when they play basketball or video games,and thought Sarah Palin was a VPILF. A bit harsh to come down on Paul when he really didn't know anything else. What's today's guy's excuse?

If it's in the Bible, it's the holy word of God....sometimes.....with the right translation....blame translators for the bad stuff.....and use faith.....and don't ask questions.


And that's why there aren't any sexist things in the Bible.

 

[LisaB1138]

I disagree, but I guess you are only talking about one country here. My question to you would be: Don't those two walk hand in hand here in America?

Not hand in hand, no. There's no doubt that the Christian religion had a huge effect on shaping the culture of this country, but the same could be said of any country. Japan without Buddhism? India without Hinduism or Islam? I think we in the US do a good job of trying to be fair, but there's a fine line between "fair" and unjust. I cannot say I'm proud of the vocal Christians in this country because they are too interested in punishing people for their perceived sins than doing justice. I cannot do more than apologize for their arrogance and do what I can to represent the faith in a positive light.

Religion does get special treatment.

Certainly. But so do women, children, rich people, poor people, pretty people and celebrities. The issue should be whether this special treatment causes an undue burden on society or harms someone. I don't think either of the "special treatments" you cite can be proven to do either. Opinions abound, naturally, but real proof? *shrugs*

 

[Cliff_m85]

I disagree, but I guess you are only talking about one country here. My question to you would be: Don't those two walk hand in hand here in America?

Not hand in hand, no. There's no doubt that the Christian religion had a huge effect on shaping the culture of this country, but the same could be said of any country. Japan without Buddhism? India without Hinduism or Islam? I think we in the US do a good job of trying to be fair, but there's a fine line between "fair" and unjust. I cannot say I'm proud of the vocal Christians in this country because they are too interested in punishing people for their perceived sins than doing justice. I cannot do more than apologize for their arrogance and do what I can to represent the faith in a positive light.

Religion does get special treatment.

Certainly. But so do women, children, rich people, poor people, pretty people and celebrities. The issue should be whether this special treatment causes an undue burden on society or harms someone. I don't think either of the "special treatments" you cite can be proven to do either. Opinions abound, naturally, but real proof? *shrugs*

I'd disagree on both counts. First, we have a president who states blatently he'll use 'faith' to determine what to do. Then we have laws that prohibit Atheists from taking office in certain states. Add the religious arguments taken seriously about political ideas.

The treatment of a pedophilic Mohel spreading STD's and killing a child with them (as seen in New York) with absolutely no punishment to the Mohel is completely insane. If you think the death of a child by means of some old man sucking on the kid's penis and spreading disease isn't "harming someone" then I have to make the face of ""

Add that the religious get more freedom than the nonreligious.

Faith is nothing to be proud of, it's harmful. It's false hope with the ribbon of tradition tossed on top.

 

[Agent Larkin]

Ireland is planning to introduce a blasphemy law. I'm an Atheist anyone wanna guess how i feel about it?

 

[Trace2010]

I can't believe it...the ACLU actually in position to DEFEND an organized religion????

 

[Dele]

I'm starting to doubt your sanity in this matter. I'm not sure what bible youve been reading, but I'm fairly certain that Jesus was the guy in the robe preaching about forgiveness. I dont know, it might have been some other religious figure.... oh wait, they all preached that, didnt they? And what, may I ask, have I proposed that I have not backed up in the right manner? Please inform me, and I'll be glad to crucify you with religious knowledge.

Bible is full of contradictions. At one point there is talk about raping pagans and at one point there is talk about forgiving people of other religions. When I said you were making false claims, I obviously meant the part about myself stereotyping Christians.