Renaming jRPGs

[JWW]

They already have a genre - adventure games. They're from Japan, but they're still the same thing.

 

[PopeJewish]

The names exist because of the fundamental differences in philosophy that western game devs and japanese game devs take when they go about making an RPG.

Also, there are SRPGs, a la FFTactics, Disgaiea, etc

I know WHY it exists, I'm just saying the label couldn't be any vaguer if it tried.

And there exists exceptions to every rule, and the WRPG/JRPG label is no exception. E.G., Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor is a JRPG, but it still focuses on choice and roleplaying with its main character and storyline. It is an SRPG as well, but someone calling it a JRPG paints it with a stigma that's not deserving of it.

Also, I probably couldn't have made that point muddier if I tried. *shrug*

Well that's the problem with generalizations in general

there are exceptions to every rule, and it's hard to classify a lot of games, especially these days, so having over-arching genres helps. Given that, the fact remains that there are large trends that differentiate between jRPGs and wRPGs, so the generalizations can be helpful, if not always correct.

 

[Troublesome Lagomorph]

Acch.

Right.

Here it is again.

Role-playing means two different things

1) You assume the role of a pre-existing character and generally act as they would through the course of the game; you are playing their role almost like an actor.

2) You tailor a character through whom you will act as you see fit (i.e. to the character's personality) and generally be this character.

JRPGs tend towards the former. Both are pretty similar (they both involve play a role, after all), but the differences are pretty crucial.

Both, however, are equally valid.

This.
This whole "renaming" nonsense needs to stop. Seriously.

 

[xHipaboo420x]

I think I understand what you mean, but that has nothing to do with the genre. A well-crafter game of any genre can evoke this kind of experience. I have, at times, genuinely felt emotionally connected to characters in adventure games or action games. This does not make a game an RPG. Yes, you are playing a character in a certain role, but it is not role-playing. In another thread I argued that a game like Grand Theft Auto is more of a role-playing game than the vast majority or JRPGs.

I have to add that this isn't just JRPGs though. Many 'WRPGs' lack any real 'role-playing' as well. Games like Diablo and Borderlands are often called RPGs as well, and yet they contain very little role-playing. It's just more noticeable in JRPGs since the idea of what the genre entails has shifted more from its role-playing roots than their western counterparts.

I agree, actually. So-called RPGs have become so defined by what they are supposed to include/represent that they've stopped backing that up with substantial role-playing possibilities, whereas other genres now include a richer RP element.

I see what you're getting at now (an actor is forced to play a character how it is written, whereas WRPGs let you [the player/actor] decide what the character is like) but the problem is, too many games then get drawn into this category. FPS games often have a blank character and a story to play through. You could even say that Mario games let you play the part of an Italian plumber in a strange world set to rescue a princess.

The problem with using your definition to define JRPGs is that its to broad as it encompasses most games.

Yeah, I can see what you're saying. This ties in with what Hurr Durr Derp was saying (above). I think the problem/root of this is that games are increasingly easy to pigeonhole because of their slavish coherence to genre guidelines established by past games e.g. most FPS's follow Call Of Duty/Halo's lead, most JRPG's are FF clones, etc. This makes it easy to generalise and question the games' relevance to the genre they once represented.

 

[spartan231490]

Acch.

Right.

Here it is again.

Role-playing means two different things

1) You assume the role of a pre-existing character and generally act as they would through the course of the game; you are playing their role almost like an actor.

2) You tailor a character through whom you will act as you see fit (i.e. to the character's personality) and generally be this character.

JRPGs tend towards the former. Both are pretty similar (they both involve play a role, after all), but the differences are pretty crucial.

Both, however, are equally valid.

It isnt role playing if you have no choice. sorry, but there it is. In order to role play you have to play a role, hense the name. when you have no choice, you dont play the role, you watch it. That said, I enjoy linear rpgs because, have u ever read a fantasy book where the main character ignored his duty to save the world so he could loot out every goblin cave in existance? (thats me playing oblivion) no, so whats the point of a game that encourages me to do that when all i want is to be the bada$$ from a fantasy series?

 

[Heart of Darkness]

The names exist because of the fundamental differences in philosophy that western game devs and japanese game devs take when they go about making an RPG.

Also, there are SRPGs, a la FFTactics, Disgaiea, etc

I know WHY it exists, I'm just saying the label couldn't be any vaguer if it tried.

And there exists exceptions to every rule, and the WRPG/JRPG label is no exception. E.G., Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor is a JRPG, but it still focuses on choice and roleplaying with its main character and storyline. It is an SRPG as well, but someone calling it a JRPG paints it with a stigma that's not deserving of it.

Also, I probably couldn't have made that point muddier if I tried. *shrug*

Well that's the problem with generalizations in general

there are exceptions to every rule, and it's hard to classify a lot of games, especially these days, so having over-arching genres helps. Given that, the fact remains that there are large trends that differentiate between jRPGs and wRPGs, so the generalizations can be helpful, if not always correct.

That's part of the reason why I don't like the labels. I just don't like how general (read: vague) they are.

And I'd argue that the biggest difference between the two is actually just one dimension, not really role-playing in the pen-and-paper sense.

 

[Bloodyrose]

I'd disagree there. JRPGs contain roleplaying aspects in that you control how your character develops in regards to their abilities. Its very rare to have the ability to act out your characters actions in a JRPG since you are very limited in your choices (in other words the character you play and the story will develop in a set way, because you don't have the option to make choices other than; armour, spells, left/right in a dungeon.

Its the adjustable stats and equipment that allow you to control the development of your character.

If you want an example of a JRPG were the only thing you can really do is just give your players hp/mp healing items is to play Inuyasha for the DS. My god that game was horrible.You level up your characters, you can't give anyone weapons/armor, everyone has a set special attacks.

 

[LeonLethality]

We will keep calling them JRPGs because that's what they are.

(also I think in most cases Japanese is a proper noun so why do so many people keep it lower case in JRPG?)

 

[SimuLord]

Stat-building adventure games. But then the LucasArts/Telltale folks will flip their shit about Japanese vs. Western adventure games.

 

[Saargston]

Man, I wasn't a-Bio-Ware that one developer's quip would just roll out the carpet for this much discussion. I mean, sure, Japanese games don't function the same way as western games, but they're still RPGs. (Though, you can argue that any game is an RPG) Besides, if you change the name, it wouldn't matter. The games would still role-play just like they always have.

I don't have that much agangst jRPG's, but it would be somewhat amusing if they called them Emo Wankery instead.

 

[spartan231490]

We will keep calling them JRPGs because that's what they are.

(also I think in most cases Japanese is a proper noun so why do so many people keep it lower case in JRPG?)

Japanese is an adjective, Japan is a noun.

 

[LeonLethality]

We will keep calling them JRPGs because that's what they are.

(also I think in most cases Japanese is a proper noun so why do so many people keep it lower case in JRPG?)

Japanese is an adjective, Japan is a noun.

Thanks, I'm not all that great in the classifications but either way it should be capitalized.

 

[PopeJewish]

It isnt role playing if you have no choice. sorry, but there it is. In order to role play you have to play a role, hense the name. when you have no choice, you dont play the role, you watch it. That said, I enjoy linear rpgs because, have u ever read a fantasy book where the main character ignored his duty to save the world so he could loot out every goblin cave in existance? (thats me playing oblivion) no, so whats the point of a game that encourages me to do that when all i want is to be the bada$$ from a fantasy series?

This is simply false. What part of "role" dictates that choices have to be made? "Role" is most commonly defined as a character or part played by an actor. Do you think actors have choices in what they do? You're using a very personalized definition of the word. You still play a role in linear RPGs. Hell, if you want to get technical and go strictly by definition, you play a role in pretty much every game ever created. The definition of an RPG tends to be more limited/specific than that, but it has nothing to do with it being linear or making choices that affect your game character or the story surrounding him/her

 

[ManInRed]

A lot of good points made so far, but I don't think this discussion will get anywhere if we argue the meaning of 'role playing' as all videogames are role playing by definition and the original meaning behind calling the genre RPG had nothing to do with the words 'role playing.'

JRPG is a term we need to all agree to stop using. First off: it's racist, and before you disagree with me, distinguishing something based on race alone is the very definition of being racist. Which does, like most racist terms, make people who use the term JRPG, come off as having some sort of prejudice against the genre of games, if not Japanese people in general.

Second, the two types of game play people want to distinguished are not perfectly divided by racial lines. The players and developers of JRPG and WRPG exist in both Japan and the West. Geography and Race are not ideal terms to describe game play mechanics.

Of course, that's not to attack people who use the term JRPG. The fact is JRPG is used because no better terminology exists to separate the two types of RPG games. CRPG was attempted for a while, but no one agree if that C stood for Console or Computer. Since most PC games come from the country you live in, the term JRPG was made to describe console RPG games. Though, Console/Computer is not a clear separation of the two types of game play people are talking about either --even if it lack any other reason than the same game can exist for both the console and the computer.

So then what is the solution? Well let me start by describing the two types of game play.

Armada (JRPG): Enter battle mode segments while traveling, in which opposing armies determine how to utilize their limit resources to defeat the opposing side. Outside of battle you can outfit your army.

Avatar (WRPG): Journey around as an alternate individual whom you can outfit for combat and complete various quests, determining who the individual is with your choices.

Those are the two types of RPG games people want to separate. Now those definitions aren't perfect. Avatar games would still be consider a sub-category of adventure games as it is define now. And Armada games would not only include JRPG games, but Tactical and Strategy games as well, if nothing was added to its current definition.

I do not know where we go from here to find a better terminology for these branches of RPG games. The term RPG for Armada (JRPG) was used for a couple of decades, so a part of me wants to let it keep the name, even if it seems vague or confusing to some. But then, Pluto was still called a "planet" back when RPG was first cooked up, so maybe it is time for a change. And if there is one, better the fans of JRPG games come up with a name than those who hate JRPG games.

I will add that MMORPG should never be called an RPG. If you want to shorted that ridiculously long acronym, shorten it to MMO. Same number of letters, and the MMO part describes how the game differs from others a lot more than the RPG part. Plus, no other genre is fighting over using MMO, so people will know what you mean if you call it that.

 

[Bek359]

Maby so, but no more than any other type of game. I wouldn't consider Halo a role playing game because you play the role of Master Chief.

Indeed, but the difference is that the plot of, say, a Final Fantasy game will revolve heavily around how the characters react to the various events occurring around them, and what they think about it. Halo, on the other hand, has a plot that isn't affected in such a way, and you never really get in Master Chief's head to the extent that you do Tidus or Squall.

That's possibly because Master Chief's personality is about as deep as a kiddie pool. This is coming from someone who rather enjoyed Halo's campaigns.

 

[Miumaru]

Could accept RPG to mean dice rolls too, similar to DnD, where the damage dealt as well as many other factors are determined through random rolls, hence why doing the same exact thing to the same exact enemy in the same exact way with the same exact stuff can result in doing 20 damage or 25.
I do not know if this is an official meaning of RPG, but it was one I was told once, and if anything atleast fits.

 

[chozo_hybrid]

How about Japanese Role Playing Game, because that's what they are no matter how you look at it.