Rogue One may be the worst Star Wars movie to date

[bastardofmelbourne]

Addressing some unfair criticisms

Spoiler

I didn't feel like the protagonist was much of a Mary Sue. She knew how to fight, but that should be expected from the main character of an action thriller. She wasn't even the best fighter in the group, and seeing as she was raised my a guerrilla warfare terrorist, I would expect her to be able to handle herself.

As for her switching sides so quickly, I thought it made perfect sense. The Empire destroyed her family, so of course she hates them. The film specifically tells us that she used to fight in a rebellion force, so it's not like this is unprecedented. She wasn't jaded because the Rebellion was immoral, she was jaded because they left her behind when she was sixteen. Furthermore, her whole motivation is meeting her father. Seeing as her fathers dying wish was for her to correct his mistakes, I think it's easy to see why she would go from jaded anti-hero to idealistic rebel leader. That was always an aspect of her character.

I didn't think the romance was forced at all. It doesn't even really go anywhere. There's a scene near the end where the main characters briefly hold hands, but it didn't even feel particularly romantic. It felt more like they were comforting each other moments before the end. It's not like they declared their undying love for each other and shared a passionate kiss. It was understated, and barely even there at all. They acted like people who respected, but barely knew, each other. I don't really get this complaint.

Spoiler

She's not really a Mary Sue, but I found her unlikable nonetheless. The supporting cast was much more entertaining.

Her switching sides makes much less sense if you remember that it was a Rebel bombing run that killed her father, not the Empire. For her to swing so strongly towards the Rebel side after that - and especially after the Rebels ignore her father's message - seems a little off. If I were her, and I found out that this Rebellion that I didn't even trust to begin with turned out to be untrustworthy, I wouldn't continue trusting them.

As for the romance - you're right, everyone dies before it goes anywhere, but there were some very painful longing glances shared between the two of them after her father died that seemed to come out of nowhere. The pair had zero chemistry, no common ground, and she'd just found out that he had been trying to assassinate her father the entire time. For them to suddenly start gazing into each other's eyes seemed unrealistic. It just felt forced, like they'd gotten two-thirds of the way through the film and shouted "Wait, we need a romance!"

Oh, one more bit of fridge logic:

Spoiler

It makes no sense for the Rebel general to order Whatshisface to kill Jyn's father. I mean, he's already finished the Death Star. The Rebels know that, and they ought to know that their best chance of fighting against it is to get its chief architect on their side. Then they wouldn't need to make a long-shot suicide attack on Scarif; they'd have the brains right there with them.

 

[Fox12]

Addressing some unfair criticisms

Spoiler

I didn't feel like the protagonist was much of a Mary Sue. She knew how to fight, but that should be expected from the main character of an action thriller. She wasn't even the best fighter in the group, and seeing as she was raised my a guerrilla warfare terrorist, I would expect her to be able to handle herself.

As for her switching sides so quickly, I thought it made perfect sense. The Empire destroyed her family, so of course she hates them. The film specifically tells us that she used to fight in a rebellion force, so it's not like this is unprecedented. She wasn't jaded because the Rebellion was immoral, she was jaded because they left her behind when she was sixteen. Furthermore, her whole motivation is meeting her father. Seeing as her fathers dying wish was for her to correct his mistakes, I think it's easy to see why she would go from jaded anti-hero to idealistic rebel leader. That was always an aspect of her character.

I didn't think the romance was forced at all. It doesn't even really go anywhere. There's a scene near the end where the main characters briefly hold hands, but it didn't even feel particularly romantic. It felt more like they were comforting each other moments before the end. It's not like they declared their undying love for each other and shared a passionate kiss. It was understated, and barely even there at all. They acted like people who respected, but barely knew, each other. I don't really get this complaint.

Spoiler

She's not really a Mary Sue, but I found her unlikable nonetheless. The supporting cast was much more entertaining.

Her switching sides makes much less sense if you remember that it was a Rebel bombing run that killed her father, not the Empire. For her to swing so strongly towards the Rebel side after that - and especially after the Rebels ignore her father's message - seems a little off. If I were her, and I found out that this Rebellion that I didn't even trust to begin with turned out to be untrustworthy, I wouldn't continue trusting them.

As for the romance - you're right, everyone dies before it goes anywhere, but there were some very painful longing glances shared between the two of them after her father died that seemed to come out of nowhere. The pair had zero chemistry, no common ground, and she'd just found out that he had been trying to assassinate her father the entire time. For them to suddenly start gazing into each other's eyes seemed unrealistic. It just felt forced, like they'd gotten two-thirds of the way through the film and shouted "Wait, we need a romance!"

Oh, one more bit of fridge logic:

Spoiler

It makes no sense for the Rebel general to order Whatshisface to kill Jyn's father. I mean, he's already finished the Death Star. The Rebels know that, and they ought to know that their best chance of fighting against it is to get its chief architect on their side. Then they wouldn't need to make a long-shot suicide attack on Scarif; they'd have the brains right there with them.

Was she ever really fond of the Rebels, though? I never got that impression. I figured that she was clearly using them to accomplish her goals. They had an army, and she couldn't accomplish her mission alone. She basically yells at them in the staff room, and then storms off when they prove to be cowards. Then she grabs some of their best soldiers and goes completely rogue, showing a complete disregard for their orders. I never got the impression that she cared about the Rebel Alliance at all. They were just a means to an end.

As for the bit about killing her father, I thought that they were trying to kill him before he could complete the Death Star? The main laser wasn't finished yet, and the main rebel force didn't know about the space station at all until after he'd been killed. I did think that it was dumb that the one dude tried to snipe him after they'd seen a whole city get destroyed by the Death Star. Obviously he changed his mind, but it shouldn't have taken that long. I'll have to rewatch it again.

 

[Neverhoodian]

Right, I finally got around to seeing it, and-

Seriously though, this is the kind of Star Wars movie I've been wanting for years now. Finally, a Star Wars film that isn't afraid to mix things up and deviate from the formula.

Spoiler: What I loved

-SPACE BATTLES! HONEST-TO-GOD SPACE BATTLES!

-K-2SO was definitely a show stealer with his hilarious, brutally honest observations. Chirrut Imwe also had some great moments ("You're kidding, right? I'm blind!"). Consequently, I had the most feels for their respective death scenes. Speaking of Chirrut, it was great to see another Force-sensitive that isn't a Jedi or Sith. Also, "Keeper of the Whills..." I see what you did there...

-All the call-outs to the Expanded Universe, both old and new; I practically squee'd when the OG Juggernaut came roaring over the ridge, and the Hammerhead corvette scene is probably the closest we'll ever get to seeing KOTOR on the silver screen. It was cool seeing Saw Guerrera again after Clone Wars, and there were several references to Rebels, from subtle name-dropping via Yavin IV's PA system to the Ghost participating in the space battle.

-Gray areas in a setting known for its black-and-white morality. The Rebels aren't all squeaky clean goody-two-shoes and the Empire aren't comprised entirely of psychopaths...at least, not when it comes to the rank and file. I felt genuinely bad for the deaths of some Stormtroopers. Take the one with the scuffed-up armor on the Juggernaut, for instance. The poor blighter looked like he was sick of his job and just wanted to go home.

-CGI Tarkin was nothing short of jaw-dropping. If it wasn't for subtle giveaways in the animation and the slightly-off voice actor (they should have gone with the one from Rebels, he sounded like the real deal) I would have sworn it was a clone of Mr. Cushing himself circa '77. Red and Gold leaders were also quite impressive (also, RIP original Red 5. Why are the chubby pilots always the first to go?).

-The Empire having an effective military? Surely you jest! Seriously though, Rebel ships and soldiers were dropping like flies.

-Goddamn, that scene with Vader at the end was terrifying. It touched off long-forgotten memories of the first time I saw him as a young, easily frightened child. It was visceral, brutal and blatant fan-service...and I loved every second of it.

I'll admit it's not perfect-

Spoiler: Stuff I didn't care for

-The movie is all over the place at first...literally. I liked seeing different locales and all, but the degree of planet-hopping was overkill.

-"Be careful not to CHOKE on your ambitions, Krennic."

-The Rebel council scene with the "we'd better surrender now!" bit. It ultimately served no purpose other than for Jyn to give a generic "we just have to BELIEEEEEEVE in ourselves!" speech. It also made it seem like the Rebel Alliance wasn't all that committed to its cause if it was willing to roll over and die that quickly. Besides, it's not like anybody believed they were going to go through with it; we've all seen A New Hope, for crying out loud!

-Certain plot points were not only predictable, but telegraphed too far away. This robbed some of the more dramatic scenes of their intended emotional weight.

-While the model for CGI Leia was impressive, the animation plunged it straight into the Uncanny Valley. Shame that's what the movie ends on.

-but goddamn, this got me psyched far more than TFA did.

 

[jademunky]

Just saw it 20 minutes ago and it was great!

Seriously, I would rank it at #3 in my list of Star Wars movies, way better than any of the prequels more interesting characters than Ep VII, best space battles in franchise history.

Really, my only problem with it is with the CGI on a couple human characters (particularly juxtaposed against real-life actors) and the fact that a certain other famous characters outfit looks a little...........plastic haloween costumey.

 

[Kyrian007]

Action scenes are usually more breathtaking and intense when they're somewhat grounded. Why do you think people liked the lightsaber battle in VII so much?

Wait, people liked that scene? I've never heard anyone praise it, even those who like TFA. For me, it's the worst lightsaber duel in all the movies, without any payoff on the wow or emotional factors.

I remember people appreciating that the combatants used their weapons with brute force (Rey apparently wielded it like her staff earlier in the movie.) and emotion, and not doing a bunch of useless, exhausting twirls and spins like in the prequels. They also liked how the sabers burned into the snow and how the characters were grazed and crippled. I would rank it between the prequels and originals, with Jedi and Empire being at the top.

That's exactly why I liked the duel in TFA. It wasn't a wirefu flipout with supposedly good guys executing unnecessary jumps flips and spins designed to wildly flail enormously dangerous weapons around in a fashion almost guaranteed to be as dangerous to allies and bystanders and yourself as much as it is to your enemy (even if it looks cool.) The slower, grander and more sweeping lightsaber duels of the orig trig were limited by the effects of the day. The sabers actually were wielded as if they had weight, which they obviously did not in the prequels. But given the dangerous potential of a weapon that can cut through anything I thought the original version was more appropriate. The weapons did have weight... responsibility and safety. A weapon you had to have complete control over to operate in a safe manner. Even Sith who wouldn't care about teammates and bystanders still have to maintain tight control to avoid decapitating themselves or slicing the floor out from under themselves. And I thought TFA added that sense of weight back into the duels... making them better than they had been since Jedi.

And Rogue One... I liked it. It wasn't without problems. I didn't need to see Peter Cushing cgied alive. The story didn't need him or Tarkin at all for that matter. Same goes for Red Leader. It looked so bad it was jarring. And just in general I had higher hopes for it. Ever since reading Wraith Squadron, that's the Star Wars story I wanted to see. The Dirty Dozen in space. And so it was impossible for me not have very high expectations for what was being billed as EXACTLY the Star Wars movie I wanted to see. But I'm not getting a lot of the criticisms.

People have been complaining about plot holes. And just like in TFA and really in every other movie, I can explain the "plot holes" away easily (a conceit of mine... my assertion that plot holes don't actually exist in works of fiction.)

People have been complaining about "mary sue/stu" characters. Yes, that's called being a protagonist. Sorry, but I don't need to "identify" with a protagonist. I'm perfectly capable of liking a character who's better than myself at everything... even one who seems to have no flaws. Even one that seems better at something than they logically should be. Some people are just good at stuff, one of my best friends can pick up a musical instrument he's never played and be fairly proficient within a week. There are (gasp) even times that a girl is better than me at something (or many things for that matter.) And when that happens in real life or a movie I'm ok with that, and can still root for that woman. To the folks complaining about Poe in the dogfight scene in TFA... I can rack up that many kills in that amount of time against TIEs in the X-Wing game. Because you are the hero in that game, that's how its built. Just like in a movie.

People have been complaining that the characters "aren't memorable." Uhh, yeah. This is a war movie. About soldiers, the real heroes that are actually responsible for victory. Not just the heroes that are the "face" of victory who's legends are built on mounds of the corpses of the real soldiers. The "rogues" are not the Lukes, or the Hans, or freaking princesses. And the bad guys, yeah not the "name" supervillains. Just the nameless commanders of an empire built on the bureaucracy of millions of faceless villains like that one. Its "a Star Wars story," not "its Star Wars." And that's exactly just like it was billed.

It was begging for more comic relief, and I wanted to see more "gritty hero doing bad things for the cause" than Cassian's one measly murder. But its a small complaint... he did flat out murder a CI. But overall, I liked the movie. I also really like the idea that "a Star Wars story" doesn't have to be the same kind of movie as the main storyline. Just as the Marvel movies have a tech thriller, super spy film, war movie, a fantasy... basically different genres of movies. Star Wars can now give us more than just "space opera." I'm all for that.

I read the escapist's current movie reviewer's (Marter? or whatever) first review after they let go of Bob. I decided his opinion of movies was different than mine and therefore of no use to me. Now I've read his review of Rogue One... the Escapist made a huge mistake.

 

[Zhukov]

Well, ended up seeing it a lot earlier than planned.

Ehh, it's alright.

The first half is messy. The characters are all rather one-note, although I suppose that's standard for a Star Wars film. It deals in some heavy cliche. There are a bunch blatantly lingering fan-service moments that really didn't need to be there.

Then the second half rolls around and everything gets a whole lot better. Although, weirdly, the main character does absolutely sweet fuck all during the climax.

The action is a mixed bag. Sometimes it's goofy, often it's alright, occasionally it's pretty fucking great.

My main general complaint is that it doesn't live up to its premise. It seems to be trying to be a Jedi-free war movie in the Star Wars universe. And when it's being that it's pretty cool. Then they succumb to temptation and make someone blurt out something inane about The Force and have Vader poke his nose in because apparently they're scared we'll forget we're watching a Star Wars movie.

So yeah. Okay movie. Could have been fantastic.

 

[hermes]

It can't be the worst Star Wars movie to date. Unless it is worst than Lucas writing Twilight level of romancing, and I seriously doubt it.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

Then they succumb to temptation and make someone blurt out something inane about The Force and have Vader poke his nose in because apparently they're scared we'll forget we're watching a Star Wars movie.

I like the idea that the Force exists as an in-universe religion practiced by people who aren't Force-sensitive. Jedi are super rare, but the Force exists separately to them, so it makes sense that it would take a deity-like role in some cultures.

And Vader was like...man, a Vader standalone hasn't been confirmed, I think they had to put him in before James Earl Jones fucking dies. He has less screen time than the Joker did in Suicide Squad, but he makes it count. And...that scene, at the end. Popping that at the end of a movie about normal people with blasters is like dropping Superman into Gotham. Or a Space Marine into a Dark Heresy game. It's just like, "oh shit, that's why they're usually the main characters." It was well done.

New pet peeves: In retrospect, I'm really annoyed at all the missed opportunities for the Wilhelm scream. Combine that with the like-Star-Wars-but-not soundtrack, the lack of an opening crawl or anything...it felt kinda like the tofu version of Star Wars. "I can't believe it's not Star Wars" Star Wars. It was fun, at least the second half was, but it just didn't feel like a Star Wars movie. It's like doing a Bond film without a fancy car or some kind of cool gadget, or the down-the-barrel opening sequence.

Maybe that was deliberate; I kind of think it was a poor choice, however. Throwing in inane fanservice shout-outs is no substitute for properly capturing the feel of a Star Wars movie.

 

[Zhukov]

And Vader was like...man, a Vader standalone hasn't been confirmed, I think they had to put him in before James Earl Jones fucking dies. He has less screen time than the Joker did in Suicide Squad, but he makes it count. And...that scene, at the end. Popping that at the end of a movie about normal people with blasters is like dropping Superman into Gotham. Or a Space Marine into a Dark Heresy game. It's just like, "oh shit, that's why they're usually the main characters." It was well done.

Oh yeah, I liked that scene too. It served a purpose, unlike many of the others.

New pet peeves: In retrospect, I'm really annoyed at all the missed opportunities for the Wilhelm scream. Combine that with the like-Star-Wars-but-not soundtrack, the lack of an opening crawl or anything...it felt kinda like the tofu version of Star Wars. "I can't believe it's not Star Wars" Star Wars. It was fun, at least the second half was, but it just didn't feel like a Star Wars movie. It's like doing a Bond film without a fancy car or some kind of cool gadget, or the down-the-barrel opening sequence.

Maybe that was deliberate; I kind of think it was a poor choice, however. Throwing in inane fanservice shout-outs is no substitute for properly capturing the feel of a Star Wars movie.

See, as someone who is decidedly lukewarm on Star Wars in general I was hoping for something less, well... less Star Wars. I realise that might seem irrational, but it often seemed like the movie was trying to be just that.

Instead of committing they sort of hovered in the middle, so they ended up with something that wasn't Star Wars enough for you but was a bit too Star Wars for me.

(I have now written "star wars" enough times that it's starting to sound funny in my head.)

 

[Pyrian]

Instead of committing they sort of hovered in the middle, so they ended up with something that wasn't Star Wars enough for you but was a bit too Star Wars for me.

I think you might both be just a bit too picky about things that really shouldn't matter so much. ;P I mean, there's plenty to criticize in the movie, but that sort of thing just seems kind of silly, when you've got fundamental issues like the jumpy and disjointed first third(?) of the movie.

 

[Fox12]

Then they succumb to temptation and make someone blurt out something inane about The Force and have Vader poke his nose in because apparently they're scared we'll forget we're watching a Star Wars movie.

I like the idea that the Force exists as an in-universe religion practiced by people who aren't Force-sensitive. Jedi are super rare, but the Force exists separately to them, so it makes sense that it would take a deity-like role in some cultures.

And Vader was like...man, a Vader standalone hasn't been confirmed, I think they had to put him in before James Earl Jones fucking dies. He has less screen time than the Joker did in Suicide Squad, but he makes it count. And...that scene, at the end. Popping that at the end of a movie about normal people with blasters is like dropping Superman into Gotham. Or a Space Marine into a Dark Heresy game. It's just like, "oh shit, that's why they're usually the main characters." It was well done.

New pet peeves: In retrospect, I'm really annoyed at all the missed opportunities for the Wilhelm scream. Combine that with the like-Star-Wars-but-not soundtrack, the lack of an opening crawl or anything...it felt kinda like the tofu version of Star Wars. "I can't believe it's not Star Wars" Star Wars. It was fun, at least the second half was, but it just didn't feel like a Star Wars movie. It's like doing a Bond film without a fancy car or some kind of cool gadget, or the down-the-barrel opening sequence.

Maybe that was deliberate; I kind of think it was a poor choice, however. Throwing in inane fanservice shout-outs is no substitute for properly capturing the feel of a Star Wars movie.

Not to mention the fact that, in this case, it's a religion that can be scientifically observed. Midichlorians and all that. I liked the idea of the Jedi Temple guards. It's like they were force sensitive, but not enough to become actual Jedi.

It does clash with the early films, though. Han Solo and the Imperial leaders seemed to mock the idea of the force. Now it seems like the dominant religion in the galaxy.

 

[Skatalite]

Yeah, this might blow your mind, but people liked those movies.

So you're telling me that Toy Story 3 was on par with the likes of Good Night, and Good Luck or Munich? There's a big difference between enjoying a movie, and giving a movie a perfect score. Hell most of my favourite movies are ones I wouldn't give more then a 6 to.

How does that work? Are most of your favorites guilty pleasures?

 

[JUMBO PALACE]

I just got home for seeing it. No, just no.

Look, if you don't like Star Wars, fine. If you think The Force Awakens was bad, fine. If you've already made up your mind and just want to find other people to validate your opinion, fine.

But there is no way in hell this movie is as bad as those four quotes make it sound. And all the reviews I've watched say that it's good. Not great like the originals, but well worth the time to see. And I fully agree. I had a blast watching it, and even my friend, who is not a fan of Star Wars at all, enjoyed himself.

Agreed, I was genuinely shocked to see that so many people on the internet are bashing this movie. I had an absolute blast and there were so many fun moments/cameos that gave me a huge grin. I really disliked TFA and I went into this with tempered expectation that were more than exceeded. I can understand many of the criticisms concerning the fact that there were clearly changes/reshoots added in and the characters could use a little more development, but at the end of the day this is "A Star Wars Story". It's an aside about a group of people who

Spoiler

all die

doing a thing that'S important to the main timeline. I though the action was good (and grittier) with the ground fighting around the archive shot more like a war movie than a space-opera adventure romp.

In my opinion the things that were done right vastly outweigh what was done wrong. Besides...

Spoiler

DID YOU SEE VADER DO THE THING?

How can anyone be upset after that?

 

[Zontar]

Yeah, this might blow your mind, but people liked those movies.

So you're telling me that Toy Story 3 was on par with the likes of Good Night, and Good Luck or Munich? There's a big difference between enjoying a movie, and giving a movie a perfect score. Hell most of my favourite movies are ones I wouldn't give more then a 6 to.

How does that work? Are most of your favorites guilty pleasures?

Some are, but for most it's the fact that while I absolutely love them, I can still spot the problems they have. In fact in regards to games my favourite one of all time is one I can completely understand the flaws being a reason someone would outright hate the game.

 

[xaszatm]

Then they succumb to temptation and make someone blurt out something inane about The Force and have Vader poke his nose in because apparently they're scared we'll forget we're watching a Star Wars movie.

I like the idea that the Force exists as an in-universe religion practiced by people who aren't Force-sensitive. Jedi are super rare, but the Force exists separately to them, so it makes sense that it would take a deity-like role in some cultures.

And Vader was like...man, a Vader standalone hasn't been confirmed, I think they had to put him in before James Earl Jones fucking dies. He has less screen time than the Joker did in Suicide Squad, but he makes it count. And...that scene, at the end. Popping that at the end of a movie about normal people with blasters is like dropping Superman into Gotham. Or a Space Marine into a Dark Heresy game. It's just like, "oh shit, that's why they're usually the main characters." It was well done.

New pet peeves: In retrospect, I'm really annoyed at all the missed opportunities for the Wilhelm scream. Combine that with the like-Star-Wars-but-not soundtrack, the lack of an opening crawl or anything...it felt kinda like the tofu version of Star Wars. "I can't believe it's not Star Wars" Star Wars. It was fun, at least the second half was, but it just didn't feel like a Star Wars movie. It's like doing a Bond film without a fancy car or some kind of cool gadget, or the down-the-barrel opening sequence.

Maybe that was deliberate; I kind of think it was a poor choice, however. Throwing in inane fanservice shout-outs is no substitute for properly capturing the feel of a Star Wars movie.

In defense of the soundtrack. The new guy they hired had only 4 weeks to compose and perform the script so quite honestly it is a miracle the soundtrack wasn't horrible.

 

[Casual Shinji]

It was alright.

It suffered massively from bland actors. The one who played the main girl was fine, but the main dude was a wet blanket. It really lacked star power. Not star power as in 'someone famous', but someone who has charisma and screen presence. The robot was cool, but at this point having a snarky, sarcastic, or otherwise peculiar robot in your sci-fi setting is par the course.

Apart from that, there's the issue that this is just some little side story, that we already know the outcome to.

It says a lot that the best scene in the movie is seeing Darth Vader tearing through two hallways full of rebel soldiers.

In defense of the soundtrack. The new guy they hired had only 4 weeks to compose and perform the script so quite honestly it is a miracle the soundtrack wasn't horrible.

The composer, Michael Giacchino, seems to suck at scoring live-action movies in general. When he's working for a Pixar or Disney cartoon he kicks ass, but with live-action he just falls flat everytime for some reason.

 

[VarietyGamer]

Haven't seen it yet, but RO sounds much like TFA, a safe rehash/remake of the original films packaged for modern audiences.

I'm not a big star wars fan (I'm a Trekkie), so it doesn't really batter one way or another, Hollywood went creatively bankrupt long ago. I noticed that with the new star trek films. They're just play it safe family action films. No sci fi whatsoever. Star Wars was always a play it safe family action franchise, so meh.