Roll? Praying? Game?

[Veldt Falsetto]

I've been here for a while now (not that long but yeah) and I've realised a lot of people tend to believe that JRPGs aren't "proper" RPGs. I ask myself, why is this exactly?

I've heard things like 'but you don't create your own character' or 'but I don't get to choose anything' but how are they staples of the RPG genre?
I may have only been exposed to WRPGs this gen and only played DnD once but when I did play DnD, I was given a character with fixed skills and weaponry and the only choice I made was whether to flee or not, everything was decided by die, there were no towns, no shops and I don't remember but I don't think I even had levels or exp.
Now wait a sec, isn't DnD the definitive RPG, unless I'm wrong, it was the very first, if not the first popular RPG, therefore all RPGs after DnD owe something to it.

Now just before you dismiss this, my friend role plays, not in games but in forums or on myspace and she RPs as characters from games or anime and such, she therefore acts as a pre-made character from whatever. This is role playing, right? Wait theres more, some people even RP as real people on Twitter, I've seen people RP as Jo Whiley (a radio presenter) and Rebecca Breeds (an actress) and while this is weird, it's still role playing.

Cut to gaming then and given what I've just said, how is Final Fantasy less of an RPG than Oblivion is? It isn't. The only way to settle it is to compare both to DnD but as I'm not experienced enough in that I can't but I can show you an example of a game that closest resembles what I played. That game is this;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yc2lzFRuqzE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPSiQZCi_mc&feature=related

Unlimited SaGa. Ps2. Square Enix. JRPG

This game was panned by every critic and almost every westerner in the world. Why? Because they didn't understand it. They couldn't play it.
It's now the joke of every JRPG loving forum and named as one of the worst games ever but, if this isn't a "proper" RPG, then I've no idea how anything else could be.

In addition Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest have much more elements of what I played of DnD than any WRPG I've ever played. So in my opinion and in conclusion to this post, that both borrow heavily and that neither one is more RPG than the other but if I had to choose one of the two as the true RPG genre I'd go with Japan.


[small](disclaimer) I do love both Western and Eastern RPGs and this is NOT intended to start a flame war, any of that can be taken elsewhere[/small]

P.S. If anyone can show me how to embed these videos, that'd be nice and I'll edit it in, thanks.

 

[Internet Kraken]

So in my opinion and in conclusion to this post, the JRPG is more the "proper" RPG and not the WRPG.

P.S. If anyone can show me how to embed these videos, that'd be nice and I'll edit it in, thanks.

Why exactly? I read your post and I don't see exactly what you said to prove that JRPGs are superior to WRPGs in this regard. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying JRPGs are worse, but I do think WRPGs focus on the more traditional role-playing elements. JRPGs focus on different things, and hence are a separate genre. Or something like that.

 

[Internet Kraken]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yc2lzFRuqzE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPSiQZCi_mc&feature=related



P.S. If anyone can show me how to embed these videos, that'd be nice and I'll edit it in, thanks.

EDIT: Damn, I meant to edit this into my other post. Sorry about the double post.

 

[Johnnyallstar]

To embed the first youtube video would be {youtube=yc2lzFRuqzE} with [ ] brackets instead of { }


And role playing is really up to interpretation. You can "role play" as a set character, or you can make it all up as you go. The idea is that you're portraying somebody in a situation.

 

[Veldt Falsetto]

So in my opinion and in conclusion to this post, the JRPG is more the "proper" RPG and not the WRPG.

P.S. If anyone can show me how to embed these videos, that'd be nice and I'll edit it in, thanks.

Why exactly? I read your post and I don't see exactly what you said to prove that JRPGs are superior to WRPGs in this regard. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying JRPGs are worse, but I do think WRPGs focus on the more traditional role-playing elements. JRPGs focus on different things, and hence are a separate genre. Or something like that.

I think it's more that from my experience of DnD the reasons why people say WRPG is proper is the complete opposite of what it actually is plus I gotta change that end statement to make it more fair in that either both are proper or neither are

 

[technoted]

Do both put you in the roles of a fictional character that is not actually you? Yes, therefore both are equally Role Playing Games, allthough party based RPG's probably mean you are schizophrenic.

 

[Akiada]

I've heard things like 'but you don't create your own character' or 'but I don't get to choose anything' but how are they staples of the RPG genre?

Because being able to change how things play out is a big part of the roleplaying in roleplaying games, harkening back to their origins on the tabletop, where you could literally do anything (that the GM was willing to roll with).

I may have only been exposed to WRPGs this gen and only played DnD once but when I did play DnD, I was given a character with fixed skills and weaponry and the only choice I made was whether to flee or not, everything was decided by die, there were no towns, no shops and I don't remember but I don't think I even had levels or exp.

I... what? I haven't played DnD much, but I'm fairly sure you can design your character any way you like, unless you're talking about some obscure video game DnD that I've not heard of, as the only ones that come to mind are BioWare's, and Biowares give you quite a lot of different skills and weaponry to chose from...

Explaination, plox.

Now just before you dismiss this, my friend role plays, not in games but in forums or on myspace and she RPs as characters from games or anime and such, she therefore acts as a pre-made character from whatever. This is role playing, right?

Yes. Point?

Wait theres more, some people even RP as real people on Twitter, I've seen people RP as Jo Whiley (a radio presenter) and Rebecca Breeds (an actress) and while this is weird, it's still role playing.

Of course it is. Relevancy coming up here, right?

Cut to gaming then and given what I've just said, how is Final Fantasy less of an RPG than Oblivion is?

Because you don't get to choose your character, your role. You're thrust into a premade one. This is why RPGs are about choices - even when you're pushed into the shoes of a character with personality (Commander Shepard in ME, JC Denton in Deus Ex) you still get the choose how they act and react.

This game was panned by every critic and almost every westerner in the world. Why? Because they didn't understand it. They couldn't play it.
It's now the joke of every JRPG loving forum and named as one of the worst games ever but, if this isn't a "proper" RPG, then I've no idea how anything else could be.

I'm not sure I see what you're trying to illustrate here. I'll admit I didn't watch the vids through fully but they looked like standard JRPG fare. Nothing DnD-ish in the slightest.

In addition Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest have much more elements of what I played of DnD than any WRPG I've ever played. So in my opinion and in conclusion to this post, the JRPG is more the "proper" RPG and not the WRPG.

I don't even see how you can argue FF and DQ are more DnD than WRPG, when WRPG have several games based entirely off DnD's mechanics (Neverwinter Nights, for one). Especially when WRPGs typically give you more leeway to do what you want. ("Can I chop up that random peasant?" "Sure! But guards will come." *CHOP SLASH HACK*)

 

[daSchoof]

I may have only been exposed to WRPGs this gen and only played DnD once but when I did play DnD, I was given a character with fixed skills and weaponry and the only choice I made was whether to flee or not, everything was decided by die, there were no towns, no shops and I don't remember but I don't think I even had levels or exp.
Now wait a sec, isn't DnD the definitive RPG, unless I'm wrong, it was the very first, if not the first popular RPG, therefore all RPGs after DnD owe something to it.

Table top DnD is the original RPG, in which you created a level one character on a sheet of paper, chose your class, race, weapon specialities, abilities, etc. and role played with that character from scratch. In that sense western RPGs are more like DnD then JRPGs.

The reason people say that JRPGs are real RPGs is because you don't make your role, the role is given to you, you just have to follow it. The only choices you make is which weapons and accessories you equip and (sometimes) which skills you develop.

I kind of agree with the argument, though I still love both WRPGs and JRPGs.

 

[Akkiko]

I'm gonna admit I sort of skimmed through your entire argument because dammit, I just woke up and I demand nourishment for my starved body before I go play the MMO that sucks up my life.

In regards to the whole "what makes an RPG" argument in general, let's tear it down to the basic name, Role-Playing-Game. Honestly, once it was acronymed people started losing sight of the real meaning.

It is, as you basically say, role-playing. If you are acting through a character who is not you, that is to say, your character on Dragon Age or Yuri Lowell from ToV ( ;D ) then you are role-playing. You are playing as the Grey Warden who is out to save the world or the lazy vigilante out to save the world. (Overused goal is so overused.)

When it boils back down to the truth, you are neither tainted with darkspawn blood (I hope) nor tossing swords over your shoulders in completely unpractical but ohmygodsocool attack moves. Similarly, RPs (role-plays) have also been known to be called RPGs. Why? Habit? Or perhaps it's because people are indeed still role-playing and most RPs are synonymous to "game" on the forum boards.

I digress, I've just rehashed everything OP said.

tl;dr: RPG = role-playing-game. If you're not that character in the game, it's an RPG.

Now I'm going to go feast on some baby entrails, muwahahaha.

 

[venatus]

as a few people have stated your basing this entire thing based off of one experience with DND which if you spent 10 minuets on the internet learning about DND you'd find you experience was absolutely nothing like DND, at best your DM may have been using the rule set to do a bit of a combat set up, making your experience closer to a fighting game version of the game rather than an RPG version.

I've been DM'ing off and on (but mostly on) since late JR. high school, and one of the main appeals of DnD and most of what keeps it alive today is the fact that you can do, or at least try, anything you think of,an aspect which WRPG try there best to replicate, they have a long way to go but there usually pushing that forward. and if you don't think DND as you making a character, just look at a little DND book called the players handbook, it's a required book to actually play DND it's over 300 pages long, and it' almost entirely showing you all the options you have to build and equip the character you want, pre-made characters exist but outside of the odd DND competition dungeon crawl, they are the exception not the rule.

and the same kind of argument goes for your statment about people RPing on the internet, most people make there own charecters reserving using pre-made for the rare exception.

but now that that's all said I'd like to point out that I really love most Jrpgs and in terms of western RPG's only care for bioware or pen and paper (sorry obsidian)

 

[Veldt Falsetto]

as a few people have stated your basing this entire thing based off of one experience with DND which if you spent 10 minuets on the internet learning about DND you'd find you experience was absolutely nothing like DND, at best your DM may have been using the rule set to do a bit of a combat set up, making your experience closer to a fighting game version of the game rather than an RPG version.

I've been DM'ing off and on (but mostly on) since late JR. high school, and one of the main appeals of DnD and most of what keeps it alive today is the fact that you can do, or at least try, anything you think of,an aspect which WRPG try there best to replicate, they have a long way to go but there usually pushing that forward. and if you don't think DND as you making a character, just look at a little DND book called the players handbook, it's a required book to actually play DND it's over 300 pages long, and it' almost entirely showing you all the options you have to build and equip the character you want, pre-made characters exist but outside of the odd DND competition dungeon crawl, they are the exception not the rule.

and the same kind of argument goes for your statment about people RPing on the internet, most people make there own charecters reserving using pre-made for the rare exception.

but now that that's all said I'd like to point out that I really love most Jrpgs and in terms of western RPG's only care for bioware or pen and paper (sorry obsidian)

I seeee, yea I was hoping some DnD players would come along and chat, as you said 1 game isn't enough to base an opinion off really so yea, I mean how do JRPGs compare is there anything that shows its roots.

 

[belderiver]

Uhhh... I really don't think your experience with DnD is representative.

I think there are some JRPGs that do allow you to RP more than others - the Persona games in particular - but on the whole "RPG" is a misnomer. It was a name picked to emphasize that the story would be important, but as stories grow important in all genres of video game, the "JRPG" genre outgrows its name.

 

[SnowdensOfYesteryear]

The only true roleplaying game is Paranoia.

*Wonders how many people actually know Paranoia* >.>

 

[venatus]

the closest Jrpg's might do to show there roots is the combat system, especially the ones that let you move around the battle field and experience and leveling up. after that it starts getting increasingly difficult to trace those roots back to DND, the only one I can think of myself is how many start you off as a mostly insignificant character and take you to a world saving one, but that can't really be attributed to DND

 

[sephiroth1991]

I still like JRPGs even if the arn't like normal RPGs, notice the J it stands for 'just' meaning it's Just barely a RPG.

 

[Akiada]

I seeee, yea I was hoping some DnD players would come along and chat, as you said 1 game isn't enough to base an opinion off really so yea, I mean how do JRPGs compare is there anything that shows its roots.

They don't really compare (and I mean that in the sense that they're dissimilar, not that DnD hopelessly outclasses JRPGs - just in case my words are misinterpreted). There's some similar aspects (stats and XP and levels and whatnot) but beyond that they're entirely different things. DnD is, after all, played with dice rolls and multiple people (at least two - the GM and player, but typically three, four or five) whilst a JRPG is a video game played by a single person.

To say nothing of the different approaches to story - in DnD the GM and players together create the story. In JRPGs you typically are trundled down a linear path (with some notable exceptions).

The only true roleplaying game is Paranoia.

*Wonders how many people actually know Paranoia* >.>

Their security clearance is not high enough.

And neither is yours, Citizen.

 

[KillerH]

The only true roleplaying game is Paranoia.

*Wonders how many people actually know Paranoia* >.>

You got at least one who does right here.

OT: I've been DMing for about 3 years now, and I switch between different systems to suit the campaign that me and my player are doing. Most RPGs, western or eastern, do still use the die rolling system, they just don't show you it. An RPG doesn't have to have any set 'rules' or play to make it an RPG. What it needs is good storytelling and enjoyable gameplay.

A good RPG should play like an involving book, whether you create the characters, or they're ready for you.

 

[Schnookums]

This is Planescape torment, a RPG.
Most new WRPGs aren't what I consider RPGs, they are just games but with RPG elements, like Mass Effect is a third person shooter and Diablo is Hack & slash.
Few WRPGs are RPGs and almost no JPRGs fit this description.

 

[Seneschal]

Why is it strange that a site with mostly western readers (Americans, Europeans, Australians) seems to prefer western RPGs? It's a matter of appeal, and appeal is greatly linked to what is culturally and socially relevant to you. WRPGs are very commonly mature games, 18+, highly customizable, but strongly grounded in pre-established western fantasy or Sci-Fi tropes. Instead, JRPG settings try to reinvent the wheel with every game, placing players in a highly ambiguous genre-neutral world (usually with slight leaning towards a determined style) that incorporates tropes and archetypes from manga and anime.

It's very much expected that a western gamer prefers both something that was available to him fir a long time (PC WRPGs since the 80s), that he understands, that draws from the same cultural source as other western fiction, and that is practically his own. What isn't reasonable is people from western countries who play JRPGs and claim that they're somehow discriminated upon, when the games make millions in Japan. If you found a genre an aesthetic and values that appeal to you, good for you. No sense comparing it to things that have only tangential similarities.

First of all, JRPGs aim at a younger audience. There is no denying that. They are less violent, and what violence there is is often in a cartoonish style. Their settings use simpler, more classic themes, like evil being an outer force, humans living in pastoral and peaceful communities, and their plotlines center on friendships and how they can be used to defeat ancient unambiguously evil forces, structurally often following the themes and pacing of an anime series. JRPGs that abandon these norms for something either more mature-rated or more experimental often receive considerable attention - for example, the Persona series.

The thing that makes them so endearing is that the settings they present are much more clear-cut and stylized, allowing for more creative expression since the visuals don't have to be realistic, consistent or grounded in reality. I dare say that this aspect is what makes WRPG players dislike them today, since this worked well when hardware was less complex, and made JRPGs surprisingly advanced when other genres were limited due to older technologies. At the time, JRPGs chose to concentrate on the aspect that could not be limited by the hardware - the story and the characters. They were a prime example of what Yahtzee praises as "making the best out of, or despite, your limitations." The reason he dislikes them now is that they have been shuffling around in that limitation-shaped form for the last 15 years, when it isn't necessary anymore.

Another thing that obviously WRPG players appreciate is the thematic focus of WRPGs, especially lately - since they pretty much abandon younger audiences, they can afford playing with themes that interest their target audience - politics, social mores and traditions, religions, moral ambiguity, social stratification, the media, wars and the social and cultural ramifications of conflicts, all that stuff that simply is BORING to younger audiences.

Now, I love both genres. Denying that JRPGs aim at kids is ridiculous - that's precisely their strength. I adore playing a game that has a sense of innocence and purity because it's childish in approach, yet deep in essence because its characters are developed. What I also think is pointless to deny is that JRPGs are overly conservative in their game mechanics, and WRPGs aren't.