RPG purists.

[DVS Storm]

*snip*

Well, I'm one of those you call 'RPG purists' and I DO think Dragon Age Origins is bad, and that the sequel will probably be worse. But I don't mind much the play style, the lack of skills or the very generic story.

The biggest problem I have with Dragon Age is that Bioware said that Dragon Age would be 'the spiritual successor of Baldur's Gate 2'. And that is the worst kind of bullshit I've ever heard.

Otherwise, I think that Mass Effect is quite good, and I look forward to the second sequel.

The Baldur's Gate successor claim is a bit funny. It was pretty much a marketing trick.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Game you like? Good
Game being an RPG? Good
Games not being an RPG? Also good

Game you like not being an RPG, but being toted as an RPG? Bad

Actually...almost any use of the words RPG and MMORPG when it's actually just a G or an MMO.

RPGs - for a start - rely on player choice of their characters, not just having a stat chart.

Mass Effect 2 is a Science Fiction Action-Adventure with a moral choice system, which is fine, but it's not an RPG - more a "Choose your own Adventure".

That's not to say it's bad, but the purists are complaining that the very essence of an RPG is choice, rather than just Yes/No/Maybe.

 

[beniki]

To me Mass Effect 2 shows the direction RPGs should be going in. I don't want a game that enforces inventory management, or has clunky combat mechanics. Complexity does not equal depth.

I've said it so many times before I sound like a broken record, but Mass Effect let's you experience what it's like to be a space captain. It let me, a terrible FPS player suddenly feel like God's own sniper by a simple bullet time mechanic every time you scope up. You feel like a master manipulator of magic by combining Warp with a selection of holds and debuffs.

I'm not saying ME2 was perfect. The planet scanning left a lot to be desired for, and the missions were a little too linear. But it made me feel like a captain of a star ship, battling an enemy far more powerful than me. That's role play. I wasn't playing a game in the context of a space opera, I was role playing a space captain sniper.

When you place that against something like Neverwinter Nights 2 or Dragon Age, where I'm pausing every five seconds to force feed my party members a potion or manouvering my rogue behind the enemies back, even though I've told him to do it a thousand times before, it just doesn't make sense to do it any other way. In those games I'm not a hero, I'm a nanny directing toddlers with swords who can't think for themselves.

And I have to divide my time equally between all the party members. Suddenly, I'm no longer the most important part of the party. I'm just a glorified quartermaster, who meanly holds on to the best equipment. It's a relic from real pen and paper games where you'd argue with your friends over who gets the Dagger+1, and makes little sense in a game where you're the only player.

But, some people like squad based games. To me, that's not an RPG. That's an RTS, with one customisable character.

 

[DVS Storm]

Another thing that bothered me: a few of the decisions had real potential for depth and maturity, such as the one made at the Anvil of the Void between Caridin and Branka... But no, they decided that these two rationally competitive points of view had to be boiled down to the OBVIOUSLY naughty decision, and the OBVIOUSLY good decision. As a result of my disgust, the whole Orzammar section is basically unplayable for me. Every time after the first, I've completed it in two minutes flat with the debug console.

Oh yes the Orzammar section.....I just purely hate it. Another one is the Fade section in the Circle Tower. It just a reason to make the game last longer. I hate it when developers use those.

 

[L4hlborg]

On topic: I would have taken a more subtle aproach to the issue, but yes the conversation about new bioware games has become a bit silly with people constantly ranting about simplicity. Almost one thread a day about dragon age or mass effect ending up with around 5 people going on about how they are too simple and how they are not going to buy the sequel for game x because the previous one was so simple. Then they go on about shallow characters, too little development, the character having voice acting and moral choices as bad as fable (honestly, I think that is just way too insulting towards any game). It's getting a bit repetetive really.

And it's mostly the same people defending it day to day, which is a bit silly too. I mean if different people where having the argument, it would be more interesting, but now it's just copy paste.

I personally believe we should all take a deep breath and not take part in any bioware related threads for a few weeks. And not create them. And just chill out. Peace.

Or maybe not.

I'm currently playing Dragon Age and the one thing that I think the game does poorly is combat. 90% of the time, it's fine, but the moment you start using any sort of run-and-gun tactics you notice that the combat system is operating under very funny rules. I've been hit by punches thrown across the room, because when the punch started, the die had been cast... I was going to get hit for 28 damage, no matter where I was in relation to the attacker when the punch actually landed. It gives the illusion of real-time combat, but if you've ever tried to use basic guerrilla tactics like shoot and retreat, you discover that you're taking all sorts of impossible damage. I've actually taken crossbow bolts from behind walls, because I happened to be running past a doorway when the attack started. I'm pretty sure I've even taken damage *after* a fight was over, because there were still a couple of attacks queued up... unless there's some other explanation as to why my character is going "oh" and a shower of blood is erupting from her.

Have you ever played the Witcher? Chapter 5 greater brothers? Oh man, those assholes deal damage even when you have countered they're attack. Actually, they don't need an animation to deal damage, just boom and you lose a 6th of your health (may not sound too much, but the series of fights that it's in. Wow. Just wow).

A personal hint: mage + cone of cold then hit and run. It works quite well.

 

[The Wykydtron]

Well at least the choices in DA or ME aren't THAT black and white(in some situations of course but at least they are not as bad as in Fable 3).

THANK YOU OP At least someone agrees that ME options aren't as bad as Fable 3 options, had a massive arguement over that a while ago on one of these forums.

OT: I think the "pure" RPGs start to get on my nerves, take Lost Odyssey for example the lvl up system was just confusing as hell so i got stuck on a huge fuck off army that was probably not supposed to be that difficult... Besides i don't really want to be stuck on a menu changing trousers for slightly better trousers then selling my other trousers for profit. I'm more for the story

 

[Nimcha]

Please do, nothing you said so far would warrant calling the game 'bad'. And the characters were not bland, at all. Did you even play the loyalty missions?

Oh, that wasn't my explanation as to why the game is bad, that was just as to why the game is dumbed down.

The game is bad because it has a terrible main plot line. [The story goes side-ways not forwards and if you choose certain choices you literally end the game having gained absolutely nothing from it with a number of plot holes and really poor story-telling mechanics [the introduction of The Illusive Man, for example, but there're absolutely tons of issues with plot points in the game]

The combat is dull, uninspired and tries way to hard to be Gears of War, it also removes a lot of the tactics due to small corridors and dumbed down gameplay.

The choices within the game and the morality system have been touched upon.

The character were bland and boring if you've played any previous Bioware game; they're using the same character archetypes over and over again...

Lack of grand scale; the universe feels like it's very small and filled with corridors in Mass Effect 2, not so in the first.

Ties to the first game were poor, in fact, the fact your choices had such little impact hurt the franchise, as there was always a great deal of curiosity regarding Mass Effect 2 as to how the experience would change. Now we know how little they actually matter my interest in the final game is low.

There's more, mostly to do with the horrendous main storyline and how it butchers established lore from the first game, but you get the idea - it was a bad game.

It is not a bad game. Just because you don't like the story or the characters. And it seems you were expecting too much, which always hurts.

Besides the obvious flaws in your post, remember that Mass Effect has from the start been intended as a trilogy. As such, the second part of the story HAS to sidetrack a bit, because it can't be the beginning and it can't be the end. That's probably why you don't like it.

As a game it's completely functional, there are almost no bugs and the gameplay is interesting enough. You cannot say it is a bad game, because it is not.

 

[ImperialSunlight]

I think if the game is good otherwise I don't mind if its linear.
Oh and Demon's Souls. That is all.

 

[Raikov]

*snip*

*snip*

The Baldur's Gate successor claim is a bit funny. It was pretty much a marketing trick.

It's not funny. It's like saying; 'hey, lets make the new Pirates of the Caribbean trilogy a mute movie with stick figures!'

Or the Bilbo movie a cheap porn with midgets.

 

[D_987]

It is not a bad game. Just because you don't like the story or the characters. And it seems you were expecting too much, which always hurts.

Do I need to post a link to subjective opinion again, or are you going to stop making excuses for a game I've already pointed out faults in? I do like how you ignore all the massive other points and focus on the one area you could argue there isn't at least some fact [being the characters]. The story has plot-holes, therefore, by your definition, it's bad.

Besides the obvious flaws in your post,

Do tell.

remember that Mass Effect has from the start been intended as a trilogy. As such, the second part of the story HAS to sidetrack a bit, because it can't be the beginning and it can't be the end. That's probably why you don't like it.

I don't like it because it's a bad plot; any plot that introduces and then doesn't explore or explain new characters [The Illusive Man] decides to consistently change or alter existing lore, making the main enemies of the franchise seem moronic, or weak, not to mention the huge obvious flaws within it, make your argument pretty damn weak. This isn't even subjective, when looked at in any kind of detail the plot just doesn't hold up...

As a game it's completely functional, there are almost no bugs and the gameplay is interesting enough. You cannot say it is a bad game, because it is not.

Incorrect. See above.

 

[Mikkaddo]

Well people have been complaining a lot about Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age 2(even though it isn't out yet). Mainly because they are not "proper RPGs". Too linear or dumbed down or whatever expression people use. I personally love Mass Effect 2 and I'm really looking forward for Dragon Age 2(Dragon Age:Origins is awesome too). I don't really care if the game is a bit simpler but there are of course people who start shouting about it in the forums(such as the Escapist). Now everyone has their opinions but seriously??? The game is automatically shit if you don't have manage your stats or queue your attacks?? Of course I'm talking about RPG purists. I've got nothing personal against them but I'm just really fucking annoyed because of their behavior(of course we are all individuals but this is just a general picture that I've noticed). For example the conversations about ME2's genre. I see no point in debating over it. It is a RPG and if you think of it, it actually isn't that much simpler than the first ME or Jade Empire(actually Jade Empire is the most linear Bioware RPG imo). But well I hope that this isn't gonna start another falme war(it will but still). What do you people think? Is it that bad if the game a bit more linear and what do you think about purists in general?

EDIT: I'm not saying that the style of these games is a right way to go. I personally would like to have more options than two when you are choosing something important. Well at least the choices in DA or ME aren't THAT black and white(in some situations of course but at least they are not as bad as in Fable 3).

Well I wasn't a huge fan of Dragon Age Origins (I've been told it's because I tried on a console, so I intend to try again on PC when I have a gaming tower again.) but Mass Effect isn't at all "too linear" from the moment you finish the opening "training mission" you have loads of options of where to go and what to do, and only more of them each time you finish another story mission . . . hell, the last time I played Mass Effect I used a guide to make sure I did EVERY mission . . . it took me upwards of 80 HOURS. How LINEAR is that? most of that time was NOTHING to do with story . . .

I thought Mass Effect (the series) was the kind of RPG purity that I'd been hoping for as opposed to things like Sudeki or the tons of action games that HAVE no side missions but have RPG elements to them

 

[Gingernerd]

Sure, i'll say i'm close to an RPG purist (Shin Megami Tensei!), and by RPG purist you seem to imply JRPG purist.

Dragon Age was a game i wanted to love, but in the end the execution of the story just didn't work for me, so much codex and face to face stuff.

O.k my view of Linearity. Boundaries are there for a reason and without properly implented boundaries the storyline suffers and loses it's overall meaning and cohesion. I understand that full freedom is fun but maybe i'm too much of a masochist for that, it all depends on your priorities for a game E.g SMT Nocturne was painfully difficult but to my suprise, the whole experience became a fond memory for me. Persona games show deep cohesive stories which you generally can't affect, but you'r presented with choices every single day that effect the experience as a whole.

To conclude. Mega excited about "Catherine" being released, and anxious but hopeful for Dragon Age 2!

 

[D_987]

Bioware's main storywriter was in some other project when they were making ME2. That's the main reason the plot is pretty too simple. You might argue, that why were they making it without him and I wonder that too. Of course they wnted to get the game out balaa blaa but couldn't they have waited.

I'd argue that, since this was supposedly planned to be a trilogy, the main plot-line would have been decided upon long ago. Mass Effect 2's massive flaws make me question that idea.

 

[GeneticallyModifiedDucks]

but I don't want Dragon Age to be like them, because the point of it was to be a throwback to old school RPGs. That way, we get the best of both worlds.

This, basically. People can complain all they want about Mass Effect 2 being dumbed down, and just plain bad at times (not least of which being myself) but if they keep it old school with Dragon Age, everybody gets what they want.

Problem is, they're giving DA2 the same treatment, and that's where I start to have issues. That's not to say Origins was perfect or anywhere close to great even and it can certainly be improved. But turning it into ANOTHER action game is just ridiculous, imo. (because let's be honest here, from what we've seen of DA2 so far, does it really look anything like an RPG) To me it looks even less of an RPG than ME2, which at least let you customize your appearance.

I suppose it's not wise to pre-judge, but for some reason, I really don't think I'm going to proven wrong in March.

 

[Woodsey]

but I don't want Dragon Age to be like them, because the point of it was to be a throwback to old school RPGs. That way, we get the best of both worlds.

This, basically. People can complain all they want about Mass Effect 2 being dumbed down, and just plain bad at times (not least of which being myself) but if they keep it old school with Dragon Age, everybody gets what they want.

Problem is, they're giving DA2 the same treatment, and that's where I start to have issues. That's not to say Origins was perfect or anywhere close to great even and it can certainly be improved. But turning it into ANOTHER action game is just ridiculous, imo. (because let's be honest here, from what we've seen of DA2 so far, does it really look anything like an RPG) To me it looks even less of an RPG than ME2, which at least let you customize your appearance.

I suppose it's not wise to pre-judge, but for some reason, I really don't think I'm going to proven wrong in March.

Dragon Age 2 does let you customise your appearance, just not your race, and it still has the tactical combat of the first game.

 

[CoffeeOfDoom]

I'm pretty sure I've even taken damage *after* a fight was over, because there were still a couple of attacks queued up... unless there's some other explanation as to why my character is going "oh" and a shower of blood is erupting from her.

There's a skill that spiders (I'm not sure about other enemies) use called Corruption Burst, that makes you take damage and blood spurts out until the effect ends (sometimes after the fight), that might be what it was.

 

[KEM10]

Only proper RPG's I can think off all involve dice

Spoiler: Something About a Pickle.

We play this game all the time while waiting in lines or such. You are you and next to all your friends you are with (who are also themselves) and all you have is what you have right now. You appear on a cross roads in a desert and you see a 7 foot pickle standing there with a top hat and a monocle. What do you do?

Spoiler: victory condition

This changes game to game and is decided by the GM. Popular ones are who can annoy the pickle the most, who dies the most (if you die you are teleported back to the crossroads), who becomes the best friend of the pickle, and who does the funniest thing.

But I agree with you, the only true open world RPGs involve dice. They also have the best graphics. They can be as realistic, stylized, or over the top as you like. You also don't need to worry about your computer, console, or internet crashing mid stream and kicking you off the multiplayer (unless you are playing via skype).

 

[Srdjan]

I'm one of them, if you can't do some Baldur's Gate style miracle, you shouldn't make RPGs