RPGs defined

[bismarck55]

In order to qualify as an RPG, there must be a divide between character and player. It is far too skill-based to be an RPG.

I don't think I understand this. If a game depends on the skill level of a player at all, then it isn't a RPG?

Any real-time game will depend some amount on skill (whether reaction time or whatever, heck even WoW has 'some' skill involved even if it is just pushing buttons at the right time) so if your definition is that an RPG have zero dependence on the player... as a person... then it would have to be turn-based.

So you think only turn-based is RPG?

Not quite, there are other means of character/player division. For example, Morrowind is real-time but when you swing at a target with your weapon, the game calculates defense and attack ratings to determine a hit or miss. This helps to ensure that characters who are supposed to be poor fighters aren't going around beating the piss out of hardened badasses just because the player is skilled at the games combat mechanics.

That's just one example of how an RPG is different from other sorts of games.

It doesn't need to be perfect, it just needs to conform to the concept within a reasonable degree.

 

[Aerodynamic]

Fable and inFamous also fall short of my RPG bar, just because the story is so rigidly constructed and you don't really have much of a choice. It's just Good or Bad.

Fallout 1 and 2, probably form the basis of my definition, because they were two of my first RPGs.

Huh....sense when was inFamous consider an RPG?

But yeah, I agree with the Fallout 1 and 2 thing. You build up a character with the stats you want, and play through the story how you want. Want to talk and not kill anyone in the game? So be it. Want to kill everyone in site? So be it.

 

[bismarck55]

RPG's focused more on the stats part for the player to manage, and put the story part totally in the hands of the game master, AKA the programmers. Final Fantasy, Tales series, and Diablo fall to this part.

Others focused more on the choices and the interactiveness and took the battle customisation back a bit.
Think Fallout 3, Mass Effect, Neverwinter Nights. Drago nage, Oblivion.

But at the base they are still RPG's.

ATTENTION OP: This is what we've been saying all along.

Just because a game let's you do cover-based shooting doesn't mean it's any less of an RPG. In fact, if RPGs only had stat buliding we'd get very bored because the year is 2010. Using stat building as a primary function was okay 20 years ago but no anymore I'm afraid; that may be how the genre started out, but I'm sorry to say improvements in technology means we require more to do.

Moral: If a game says RPG under 'genre', save everybody some time and just accept it.

I know exactly what you've been saying, I made this thread because I'm already familiar with this line of reasoning, and I vehemently disagree with it.

In order to qualify as an RPG, there must be a divide between character and player. Demon's Souls, my favourite game of this console generation is widely considered an RPG, but it's not. Why did my mage get better at parrying and counter-attacking after I put in 20 hours with my thief? Because I got better at using those mechanics. It is far too skill-based to be an RPG.

The same could be said of Mass Effect, and other games.

So basically the point of this thread is that you disagree with the industry's definition of an RPG. This thread is now offically a flame thread if we can't communicate to you why everyone else sees RPGs as, well, RPGs.

The industry doesn't have a definition of what an RPG is.

 

[Space Spoons]

To me, it isn't an RPG if it isn't both third person and turn based. So yeah, Mass Effect, Oblivion, Fallout, Bioshock and the rest of them, they're great games, but they're not RPGs. They're just... Action games. At least, that's how I've always seen them.

 

[Space Spoons]

To me, it isn't an RPG if it isn't both third person and turn based. So yeah, Mass Effect, Oblivion, Fallout, Bioshock and the rest of them, they're great games, but they're not RPGs. They're just... Action games. At least, that's how I've always seen them.

What about Wizardry or Persona 1? They were 1st person and RPGs.

I was never a fan of 1st person style RPGs but they are RPGs.

I've never played Wizardry or any of the Persona games, so I can't really comment on them. I can't imagine I would feel much differently about them, though. 1st person just doesn't feel right to me, it goes against every instinct I have for the genre as I perceive it.

 

[bismarck55]

I'd say this feels more like a cheap shot at Mass Effect by the creator's post than a "what is an RPG" thread. But seriously, the first Mass Effect was more of an RPG than the second one.

Don't get me wrong, I liked Mass Effect. It was like playing a science-fiction novel. But it wasn't an RPG, and it really irritates me when people mislabel it as such.

 

[bismarck55]

To me, it isn't an RPG if it isn't both third person and turn based. So yeah, Mass Effect, Oblivion, Fallout, Bioshock and the rest of them, they're great games, but they're not RPGs. They're just... Action games. At least, that's how I've always seen them.

I don't agree with this reasoning at all. camera angle is irrelevant, and while a turn based system is desirable, it is by no means necessary.

I assume you are referring to fallout 3 when you say fallout, right? Actually I think FO3 just manages to squeak by into RPG territory, in no small part due to VATS.

 

[DustyDrB]

You know what? I don't care anymore. Maybe I'll stop describing games based on their genres. Or there will be two genres: games I enjoy and those that I don't.
How does your definition of a genre affect your enjoyment of those games? Screw that kind of checklist mentality.

 

[Space Spoons]

To me, it isn't an RPG if it isn't both third person and turn based. So yeah, Mass Effect, Oblivion, Fallout, Bioshock and the rest of them, they're great games, but they're not RPGs. They're just... Action games. At least, that's how I've always seen them.

I don't agree with this reasoning at all. camera angle is irrelevant, and while a turn based system is desirable, it is by no means necessary.

I assume you are referring to fallout 3 when you say fallout, right? Actually I think FO3 just manages to squeak by into RPG territory, in no small part due to VATS.

That's the one I'm referring to, yes. I drop the 3 and refer to it simply as "Fallout" out of habit.

 

[MercurySteam]

The industry doesn't have a definition of what an RPG is.

Then your definition of an RPG is either wrong or out of date. I can see I can't convince you otherwise, and I know that just because you say games like Mass Effect aren't RPG, does not make it so. I'd really like to see what would happen if you emailed Bioware, challenging their defintion on an RPG. I know what is and isn't right and I'm afraid you don't fall into the category of right.

I'm done with this. I know that some RPGs are: Fabe: TLC + II, Mass Effect 1/2, Bioshock 1/2 Drangon Age: Origins, Borderlands etc. It just bugs me when someone comes along and says eveything I know about RPGs is wrong. But its nothing I can get over and ignore.

 

[Coldie]

i believe loadingreadyrun did a podcast on their site titled "rpg?" in which they define very clearly an rpg. they say something something like there are many different rpg elements in existence. a common, strong one is character and stat progression like you said but others include things like, branching stories affected by your decisions, and custumizable characters. they state that once a game has enough rpg elements that they control the majority of gameplay, the game can be categorized as an "rpg".

I have to agree with this definition. Over the last 20 years, the genres have blended a lot. Old-school criteria like "Stats" (aka "RPG elements") or a "branching story"/"playing a role" are no longer sufficient to distinguish an RPG from any other genre.

A game is a "X with RPG elements" if it has these elements, but player's skill with the mouse or keyboard (or with his head, in case of the non-action games) still decides the "majority" of the outcome. RPG elements might just be a bonus to the player or a hindrance if they are "low level". [Borderlands]
A game is "X-RPG" if the player has to make decisions that affect the gameplay "significantly", such as specializing in a skill or selecting a different party, but some level of Mouse Fu is still required to triumph. [Mass Effect, Deus Ex]
A game is a "real" RPG if the player makes strategic and tactical decisions (both long-term investments and immediate ability activation) and the character does the actual fighting. Often RPGs offer some level of automation of the immediate combat decisions, ranging from Autoattack (most non-turn-based RPGs) to heavy-duty scripting (Baldur's Gate 2, etc). [Dragon Age, Wizardy, Baldur's Gate, KotOR]

 

[Feriluce]

You insert yourself into the game as your character in an RPG.

So is "Second Life" an RPG? Or Playstation Home?

Just sayin'

Second life to a certain extent I guess.

 

[bismarck55]

The industry doesn't have a definition of what an RPG is.

Then your definition of an RPG is either wrong or out of date. I can see I can't convince you otherwise, and I know that just because you say games like Mass Effect aren't RPG, does not make it so. I'd really like to see what would happen if you emailed Bioware, challenging their defintion on an RPG. I know what is and isn't right and I'm afraid you don't fall into the category of right.

I'm done with this. I know that some RPGs are: Fabe: TLC + II, Mass Effect 1/2, Bioshock 1/2 Drangon Age: Origins, Borderlands etc. It just bugs me when someone comes along and says eveything I know about RPGs is wrong. But its nothing I can get over and ignore.

kthxbai

Also, you're not entirely wrong. Dragon age is an RPG. ^_^

 

[DeathsHands]

I'd say this feels more like a cheap shot at Mass Effect by the creator's post than a "what is an RPG" thread. But seriously, the first Mass Effect was more of an RPG than the second one.

Don't get me wrong, I liked Mass Effect. It was like playing a science-fiction novel. But it wasn't an RPG, and it really irritates me when people mislabel it as such.

It's a label; it's whatever genre a person would determine it to be. A tad ignorant point of view coming from you.

I'd rather leave it up to an individual's interpretation rather than shoving an opinion on everyone.

 

[Neuromaster]

In order to qualify in my book, an RPG must meet one or both of the following criteria:

Character Agency - that is, simply put, direct control over my character's evolution. This can take the form of making meaningful choices with respect to skills and gear or my character's outlook on the world at large and so forth

Narrative Agency - Having control over the course and/or outcome of a plot. Even if the plot ends in the same basic place, if the route has meaningful variations in reaching that point (such as the events in Mass Effect 2) I'd call it sufficient.

This is probably my favorite definition so far. "Character Agency" is a common, but I would argue less important gameplay option. Can't you choose your character's specialization in a MW2 deathmatch? This ties in with what some others have been calling "dice rolling".

"Narrative Agency" is key for me. It's what brings electronic RPGs closer to the feeling of pen & paper RPGs. Nothing programmed will ever match the level of freedom that a human GM can provide, but the level of glee I feel after choosing to shove a smartass guard out of a hundred-story window far eclipses what I feel when putting my 7th point into Assault Rifles.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

An RPG is a Rocket Propelled Grenade. They are typically a shoulder-fired weapon that fire a shape-charge warhead, used against armored ground vehicles and choppers.

This is not actually entirely correct. An RPG in this context can fire any of a variety of rounds - shaped anti-armor charges are not the only or even the most common one available. In addition to HEAP (high-explosive armor piercing) you have HEDP (high-explosive dual purpose), thermobaric (a small charge used in conjunction with a flamable aerosol), fragmentation and so forth.

Also, the weapon is rarely used successfully against aerial targets as the lack of guidance system and very slow moving projectile (a few hundred miles an hour at the tube) make it exceedingly hard to hit a moving target in a combat scenario. It has been done of course, but for the effort expended even a heavy machine gun would prove more effective as an anti-aircraft weapon.

 

[wkrepelin]

no, rpg's are supposed to be about choice and customization. That's why JRPG's got their own name because all that they usually use is the numbers, leveling system and such and are not truly RPG's. Western RPG's are much closer to the PnP games that defined the genre.