Screw the Class System

[Thunderous Cacophony]

(Note: I'm talking about video game classes. Take that neo-Marxist-anarchist-revolutionary attitude to the R&P forum.)

I'm tired of playing games where they force you into a class. You see this with fantasy games a lot: Are you a Fighter, a Wizard or a Rogue? No, you can't be a wizard who casts spells while charging into battle, or a fighter who knows how to slip out of a sticky situation. You get 3 choices (the same Strong vs. Powerful vs. Sneaky dynamic in every class-based game) and only 3.

I say FUCK THAT! We know how to make games without them: Fallout 3, Skyrim, Star Wars Galaxies for Pete's sake! We can play games where our characters can grow organically, learning and changing as the player finds out what works, and as they build the identity of the character, rather than having to grit your teeth and bear it when 15 hours in you realize you made the wrong choice in the first 30 seconds of the game. Give us sets of skills we can improve (either by leveling or by working at them), and add Perks that give special abilities and more flavour. Don't force us to take random abilities to unlock something better 5 levels father up the upgrade tree; let us (for example) invest time and effort into learning Arcana and Stealth so we can sneak into an archmage's tower and steal his most powerful books!

This would also make MMO's much better. Rather than having to constantly create and balance complex classes that are stepping on each other's toes, give players a list of skills, a cap on how many skill points they get in total, and say: "Go nuts." Let them choose whether to be a master assassin or a fabulous tailor, the great paladin or the guy who picks his pockets to steal his +5 Trousers of Draconis. If you balanced it right at the start, the ecosystem should be fairly stable: each person has a weakness which can be exploited, which means there is no "best character" (although the min-maxers will still make characters they call most optimized, but that's inevitable). When you need to add an expansion, you can just add another skill, raise the point cap by a bit, and the game will remake itself.

So Escapists, are you with me? Shall we overthrow the corrupt Class System Oligarchy, and bring in a new age of Skill-Based Utopia? WHO'S WITH ME?!? [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jesStrsJcaM]

 

[Kahunaburger]

I don't think Skyrim's the game to be taking cues from re: RPG design.

 

[Brendan Stepladder]

I'm with that all the way. Most lass systems still don't encompass many playstyles that players want to have. For example, I always want to be the fast guy. However, game only like to play up the melee v stealth v ranged mechanics, which I always find equally boring.

 

[irmasterlol]

I thought TES Online would bring this to us, but then I took an arr-
I mean, but then I found out it would use the same system as all the other MMOs and I went to buy my flowers for its funeral.

 

[number2301]

Very well said that man. The sooner we get away from the crutches necessary for tabletop games and limited hardware, the better. Lets drag RPGs kicking and screaming into the present!

(probably slightly more controversially I'd also say drop shitty combat systems as well, but RPG fans seem to love those)

 

[piinyouri]

I enjoy having a rule set that I must go by and figuring out how to get through any given situation with those limitations and rules.

*shrug*

 

[dreadedcandiru99]

Yeah, that was one of the things Skyrim did that I liked. I don't see why more games so rigidly adhere to the Fighter/Mage/Thief approach. Surely it makes more sense to let the player do whatever they want, and to get better at doing the things they want by, well, actually doing them. You know, like how real life works.

(probably slightly more controversially I'd also say drop shitty combat systems as well, but RPG fans seem to love those)

I'm an RPG fan, and I'm pretty tired of them. Combat systems, menu-based and otherwise, exist because the first electronic RPGs had them, and the first electronic RPGs had them because tabletop RPGs have them, and tabletop RPGs only have them because they need them. I'm with Yahtzee on this one--why can't we just run up to a bad guy and press one button to bonk him on the head?

 

[Luca72]

3 words. Final. Fantasy. Tactics.

I have a spear-wielding dancer/monk who can ignore elevation. I have an atheist ninja (unaffected by positive or negative magic) whose main asset is that it's almost always his turn to move, he can throw bombs and axes, and can charm women opponents into becoming allies, or steal someones weapon right out of their hands. My main character is a "tactician" who can buff his squad, immobilize or blind enemies, and carries a rifle. And I'm working on a pistol-wielding "machinist" who can shoot enemies in the arm or leg and call in an eldritch airstrike with summoning powers.

Any character can switch to any class to gain abilities from it, so what you end up with is a practically infinite template for character experimentation. And the enemies are designed the same way, so you may be fighting a knight who suddenly takes a step back and starts shooting fireballs, or a lancer who knows kung fu.

 

[Kahunaburger]

(probably slightly more controversially I'd also say drop shitty combat systems as well, but RPG fans seem to love those)

I agree. Down with LMB spam, up with turn-based tactics

 

[Thunderous Cacophony]

not with you.

Classes when done right serves a practical purpose. Choice. If I can get anything then choice become meaningless. Denying you the defence of the heavy armor by getting utility of stealth is an active choice. Rather than going "ill just have both".

True meaningful choice is brought is shown it what that choice denies you.

Also It doesn't necessarily make MMO's better.
Classes forces specialization enforcing the the concept of "this is a multiplayer game. You will need to work with others to overcome your weaknesses" .
With a completely freeform system you are are saying "be yourself". Not a bad message, but when the whole idea of an mmo is to make you play with others it is kinda counter productive.

classes have their place. Choice and specialization particularly. Doesn't mean it fit well for everything, but to go "down with classes!" is as asinine as going "down with cinematics!"

I did include points about limiting the amount of choice a player has by using a skill point system. You can't be the best at everything, but you are allowed to choose what you want to improve, rather than going up only in certain categories. Add to that the idea of a perk or feat system: You can train in heavy armour, knowing that it will reduce your stealth ability. However, you still have the option of both during gameplay: if 10 hours in you decide that stealth isn't working for you, you can retrain at the next level and begin to work on a tank. The skill system is all about compromise: You can build a classic fronline fighter-class, or decide to trade the heavy armour for stealth and agility, and hope that you're fast enough to avoid getting squished.

You will still have weaknesses in an MMO setting; they just won't be as blatantly obvious. I've played some tabletop games set up this way (Cyberpunk 2020 being the best example), and being in a group doesn't make you invincible. You need to work with you fellows to come up with a grand strategy and characters that complement each other: Do you want a group trained in a bunch of different specialties, giving your team flexibility at the expense of the individual? Or do want each character to be able to stand on their own, but without the specialization that gives you more options? You're still gonna have to know how to play with others: You just won't be able to say, "OK, we've got a Paladin, a Warpriest, a Mage and a Hunter. That covers all possible bases."

(I think you're right that class systems do have a place. But this is the Internet, home of nothing but the most emphatic hyperbole!)

 

[Cheesepower5]

3 words. Final. Fantasy. Tactics.

I have a spear-wielding dancer/monk who can ignore elevation. I have an atheist ninja (unaffected by positive or negative magic) whose main asset is that it's almost always his turn to move, he can throw bombs and axes, and can charm women opponents into becoming allies, or steal someones weapon right out of their hands. My main character is a "tactician" who can buff his squad, immobilize or blind enemies, and carries a rifle. And I'm working on a pistol-wielding "machinist" who can shoot enemies in the arm or leg and call in an eldritch airstrike with summoning powers.

Any character can switch to any class to gain abilities from it, so what you end up with is a practically infinite template for character experimentation. And the enemies are designed the same way, so you may be fighting a knight who suddenly takes a step back and starts shooting fireballs, or a lancer who knows kung fu.

This. FF5/Tactics has a great system.

 

[T'Generalissimo]

I think it depends almost exclusively on execution. If you make a class-system robust enough, you can still get a tremendous amount of freedom and choice and the type of system you're advocating can still provide an incredibly bland and restricting experience. You provide Fallout 3 as an example and I think it's a useful case study of exactly how not to do it. Because of the amount of skill points you get and the way a lot of the perks and stats work, it's pretty trivial to maximise all of the skills which renders a lot of the perks worthless, so most characters end up feeling pretty much identical (with the DLC it's almost impossible not to max out everything). There's no reason to go through the game a second time to try a different build because that build will fairly quickly become the same as the first one.

Honestly, I think the most important thing a customisation/levelling system needs is flexibility and some imagination on the part of the developers. If all you can create is your bog-standard warrior/mage/rogue archetypes then who cares? Personally, I quite like class-systems that allow multi-classing so you can design all sorts of insane combinations.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Oh you kids and your extremism...
Classes are part of a tactical gameplay where they greatly enhance the experience.
And obviously when they started to bastardize the formula for streamlined/casual purposes the whole thing came crashing down, then classes make no sense, worse yet they can become incredibly cumbersome.

So yes when you use your ingredients wrong they can do more harm then good, but when done right it is better then anything.
If we put it in contrast Skyrim is much like tic-tac-toe (quick simple fun), Baldur's Gate on the other hand is like chess (that is where every class has it's purpose and place).

 

[toobie]

Why has no one mentioned Kingdoms of amalur yet? They did the classes in a fun way, letting you decide what you want from which class-tree. And even if you made a mistake, you could change it.

 

[sanquin]

I'm glad GW2 is trying to do this a little.

A ranger can be a sniper in a distance, or a 2h sword wielding heavy hitter, or a medium-ranged axe wielder/thrower.

A rogue can go into stealth and constantly leave opponents wondering where he went next. Or he can go for fast, pretty heavy hits. Or he goes for conditions to out-last his opponent and bleed them down. Or take up two pistols or a shortbow and stay at a distance.

Sure, it's not nearly the 'open skill tree' that was talked about. But it's a step in the right direction.


And then there is The Secret World. It really does have a fully open ended skill tree. Though you do need to take lower skills for a certain set before getting to the higher ones. (like, first you have to put X points in low sword skills before unlocking the next tier) You can have all skills in the game unlocked in the end, but have limited space on your hotkey bar though. Which makes it very open-ended and free on what you want to use, and when you want to switch skills.

Too bad that TSW didn't deliver on much else. Good graphics, wonderful story, very interesting progression with skills. But mediocre/awkward combat, only very few interesting quests outside of standard 'kill X' and 'gather Y' quests, and overall looking like a very uninspired game.