Seriously though, F***K the Alliance.

[geK0]

Id agree up until Garrosh became warchief....

 

[Frostbite3789]

Damn it. This thread makes me want to get back into WoW. Curse you OP! Curse you!

OT: The only characters I ever cared to level were my horde characters. I always got bored with Alliance.

 

[Waaghpowa]

Orcs used Dranei as their practice run before invading Azeroth.

My main problem with the Horde is their selfishness as a faction. Yes yes, I know, fictional and all that but this is a nerdy gaming forum. Anyway, what have the Orcs ever done to try and make good the wrongs they've done? They say "Demons made me do it!" and expect everyone to just forgive them unconditionally, and when they don't get that, the Orcs get violent under some sort of impression their being oppressed. What have the Orcs as a people ever done to try and make good the wrongs they've done? I mean they tried to commit genocide. Twice. And both times nearly succeeded. I'm asking for one deed of selfless kindness to try as a people to set good the wrongs they committed.

Can't think of a single example.

It's like a drunk driver saying "But I was drunk, not my fault!" and I hate that. Especially when you consider, again, that the Orcs willingly fell into line behind the Demons. They actively decided that yes, this is what they want. From what I understand the only Orcs that refused were the Frostwolf clan (Thralls), but they only represent a tiny fraction of a massive population lusting for blood and conflict, to hell with the consequences.

Then when it's over and they've lost they expect sympathy? Forget that. I say kick the Orcs back through the portal to their dying world and slam the door shut behind em. Let em reap what they sewed. They can take the Forsaken with em too. Rest of the Horde factions I figure things could be worked out with, but seriously, screw the Orcs and their Horde.

You say "Orcs" as if they all agreed to do so, if you look back at the history of Draenor, the orcs lived in peaceful shamanistic society.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Draenor

If you read that, the Draenei used Draenor as their refuge from the burning legion who had previously destroyed their home planet. You could speculate that the demons arrived on the planet and manipulated the orcs because the draenei led them there.

No, the orcs don't exactly have a clean history, but they're not entirely to blame. Would you hold all of the German people responsible for the orders issues by Hitler during the holocaust? Surely there were many who opposed but at the risk of death went along with it. The same goes for the orc people, a few made deals with demons who in turn manipulated them into being blood thirsty savages through magic.

Also, you ignore all the work Thrall did to mend the relations between the Alliance and Horde. He was by far the greatest leader of both sides during his time as Warchief. The problem was that the Alliance weren't willing to compromise and a few Orcs who were too hot headed (Garrosh) let their prejudices get in the way of progress.

Neither side is clean.

 

[dertyqwerty]

I played on a RP server, so I know exactly what you're talking about.
There was one Alliance guild who only allowed their members to be human, they would talk shit about the other races and blame them for everything bad on the Alliance and wouldn't allow them to take part in raids of Horde cities, nor let them in on pugs. It was really creepy and just wrong.

 

[Tiger Sora]

Humans, Dwarves and Gnomes have plenty of good reason to hate orcs. They've only been invaded twice by them. The Blackrock Clan hasn't helped things either with the Humans. The Night Elves hate them for what they're doing to Ashenvale and that they killed Cerenius.
Everyone hates the Forsaken, EVERYONE, thats fact by the way. Some just tolerate them more.
The Blood Elves joined the Horde because the Humans wouldn't "couldn't" help them because they were fighting like a 3 front war with the undead during the 3rd war.
The Night Elves would be distrusting of the Dwarves because what do they do. They tear open the earth for minerals and artifacts. I know though they get along with the Wildhammer Dwarves.
Their forces arn't held up by 90% humans. A Dwarf can do anything just as well as a Human can except he can't reach as high. Theres plenty of Dwarves on the front lines, Gnomes and Dwarves in the sky aswell as their siege tanks. The Night Elves are practically alone fighting the Horde in Kalimdor until the Alliance pushed out of the marsh. And the Draenei send what help they can. Theres more Worgen players than there are left of the npc's so, ya, lol.

 

[Terminal Blue]

What does Hellscream have again?

Here's the thing.

Warcraft orcs are a warrior culture. Sure, they have a class of peons to do the manual labour, but most orcs seem to be raised as warriors. This doesn't mean orcs can't be wise, compassionate and spiritual, but they are also raised with a strong sense of martial honour. Warrior cultures do not have the same attitudes to violence. Backing down in the face of opposition or insult might be seen as a sign of cowardice, and cowardice is the ultimate moral failure, more so than death. It's better to die in a hopeless battle than to show fear in the face of the enemy.

Garrosh is very much a product of that culture, and I think you're underestimating him. He's not just a thug, he has strong principles, one of which is that you never back down from an honourable fight, another is that you never allow yourself to appear weak around your enemies.

He's not cut out for the position of Warchief, but it's not because he's a bad orc, it's because at heart he's a great warrior, not a great ruler. He embodies a lot of the admirable virtues of orc culture, but they make him really bad at being a pragmatic or sensible leader.

 

[Waaghpowa]

-

Thank you for saying what I'm thinking. What I try to get at with people about the horde is the fact that the actions by those such as the forsaken, or Garrosh, give the whole a bad image. Orcs aren't nearly as bad as people portray them. Argue all you want, but demons WERE the reason the Orcs did what they did. We're talking about magic here, not all of it was willful. People seem to judge them based on their past, which is unfair. They were a different people when Thrall was in charge, and I hope that he takes his place in power back soon.

By the way, I'm a sucker for Warrior cultures. Something about maintaining a strict code of honour and dignity that rewards courage and strength.

Edit: I refer to both posts regarding Garrosh and the forsaken.

 

[spectrenihlus]

I agree that the two factions should be working together but the alliance has very legitimate reasons for going to war with the horde. On another point the Forsaken should be working on a cure for their undeath instead of further developing a plague that is irrelevant now that the Lich King is dead.

In the words of vampire Sam Niell, what's to cure?

Above and beyond the fact it seems to be practically impossible (if I remember right there is one, and only one, sentient undead guy in the lore who has ever been restored to life) the Forsaken have also developed their own culture which generally doesn't see their undead state as an impediment. Many Forsaken seem to pretty much regard living humans (and to a lesser extent other living creatures) as little more than vermin, or at least outright inferior. I think other races in the Horde do sometimes think about trying to cure the Forsaken out of compassion, but the Forsaken themselves don't really care. They are what they are, and those who can't accept it kill themselves or revert to mindlessness.

Secondly, the Forsaken are in open war on several fronts. Their cataclysm story sees them fighting what is essentially a total war, in which both sides use magic to 'recruit' the human population of Lordaeron to their side (either by infecting them with the worgen curse, or raising them from the dead as new Forsaken). The Forsaken leadership see themselves (with good reason) as the heirs to the Lordaeron Empire. In their mind, the living creatures who live in Lordaeron are usurpers who refuse to recognize their ancestral rights out of sheer prejudice against the undead, and for the most part they're right. The alliance (culturally monolothic and devoted to a single religion which abhors the undead) would never have accepted a kingdom of zombies as equals. The horde (culturally diverse with a wide range of religious beliefs and interpretations) did.

Finally, the plague. The Forsaken use poisons and diseases as weapons because, being dead, they're immune to most of them. They don't have limitless numbers as they are dependent on either liberating mindless undead from the scourge or using the Val'kyr. Forsaken warfare hinges on bioweapons, which is why they are constantly trying to produce new ones.

A combination of the three factors above means that curing death is not very high on the agenda. Maybe not admirable, but understandable. The forsaken are not idealists, their experiences have largely beaten the idealism out of them as a race. They still have the mentality they earned fighting an unwinnable war for their survival against overwhelming odds, this doesn't leave much time for high idealism and moral reflection.

The Forsaken are not really Horde. Ultimately they are their own faction and many of them don't really care about the living all that much. Heck, there's a cutscene I recently encountered in which Drek'Thar spends several minutes slagging off the Forsaken as inhuman monsters (I'm right here, you know!) I think judging the horde as a whole by the actions of the Forsaken is a bit wrong. If the Horde can be accused of anything, it's not reigning the Forsaken in enough, and it doesn't seem to be for want of trying.

The Forsaken are still my favourite race in World of Warcraft though. I'm a sucker for antiheroes, and essentially they are fighting for the survival. If they hadn't joined the horde and the Alliance races had taken Lordaeron, do you think they would have been shown any mercy? If Gilneas had won the war, would they have taken prisoners? The alliance, fundamentally, don't see the Forsaken as people. The 'crime' of the Forsaken is to return the favour.

The Alliance is not as undiverse as you make it out to be, they accept that Shamanism and druidism exists but let's face it the light it pretty much the right religion, the Naaru being evidence of that. Take my favorite quest in the game where you have to find a way of curing a paladin on the Icecrown Glacier of the plague and you go to the Emerald Dream and Alextraza only for the two to fail until you finally get the help of the Naaru who basically take the paladin to heaven. Eventually the forsaken are going to have to understand that their time is over and should have been killed a long time ago.

 

[spectrenihlus]

I played on a RP server, so I know exactly what you're talking about.
There was one Alliance guild who only allowed their members to be human, they would talk shit about the other races and blame them for everything bad on the Alliance and wouldn't allow them to take part in raids of Horde cities, nor let them in on pugs. It was really creepy and just wrong.

Was their guild leader Garithos? Seriously though that dude was a prick.

 

[Terminal Blue]

The Alliance is not as undiverse as you make it out to be, they accept that Shamanism and druidism exists but let's face it the light it pretty much the right religion, the Naaru being evidence of that. Take my favorite quest in the game where you have to find a way of curing a paladin on the Icecrown Glacier of the plague and you go to the Emerald Dream and Alextraza only for the two to fail until you finally get the help of the Naaru who basically take the paladin to heaven. Eventually the forsaken are going to have to understand that their time is over and should have been killed a long time ago.

I'm going by the roleplaying game a bit here, so I'm not sure how canonical some of this is. But the light is not a 'God' religion. It's an ideal and a principle which has meaning in the warcraft universe, and those who invoke it gain power. Even the Naaru are not Gods, they're powerful beings who embody the principles of the light (selflessness, defence of life, healing and so forth).

The forsaken do have a functioning alternative to the light in the form of the Forgotten Shadow. Like the light, the shadow is not a God but a principle which has meaning and grants power. Worshipping the Forgotten Shadow works practically, just as worshipping the Holy Light works practically (only shadow priests acknowledge that they're basically worshipping a principle which grants them power, there's no need for false humility about it). Shadow priests minister, care for and grant moral values to Forsaken communities just as priests of the light do with other races. They teach that unlife has meaning and is more than an abomination, and they have the power to back it up. Ultimately, although they've never appeared in the games, they're implied to have forms of apotheosis with the shadow which might be considered analogous to heaven or a limited form of godhood.

Trying to mesh the RPG and the game makes me wonder what a human/dwarven/draenei shadow priest (as in the spec) is meant to represent, as non-undead don't worship or even acknowledge the Forgotten Shadow. I'm guessing it's meant to be a kind of Inquisitorial figure, someone who channels their religious conviction into hurting or probing the minds of unbelievers whilst still seeing themselves as doing 'holy' work.

Finally I seem to remember reading about an interview in which it was revealed that the Forsaken can actually call on the light just as other races can. It's painful and difficult for them because the light is anathema to their existence, which is why Forsaken priests have to be very strong willed, but it can be done and it frequently is. This, coupled with the fact that all kinds of less-than-holy characters seem to have light-given powers (the scarlet crusade has paladins, the blood elves still do despite having no naaru to feed on - presumably the first generation of blood knights taught others, goblins have priests who take cheques, worgen have priests despite being werewolves with an evil curse) leads to the conclusion that the holy light itself is not as discriminating as it might seem.

And at the present point in the canon it seems like the Forsaken are very much on the ascendant, with only the influence of the other horde races really holding them back. In vanilla, they were the pathetic dregs of the scourge hiding out in old crypts and fending off endless waves of undead. Now, they have a functioning kingdom capable of waging full scale war against the alliance. Silverpine used to be Scourge and feral worgen, now it's Forsaken. Hillsbrad Foothills used to be mostly humans and dwarves with only Tarren Mill as a Forsaken stronghold. Now, Southshore is a plagued ruin and Hillsbrad is a research camp. When Western Plaguelands became habitable, the alliance tried to settle there..

Spoiler

..the main questline ends with the alliance in full retreat and the the Val'kyr raising the human dead into the Forsaken. The only consolation being that Thassarian survives while his horde counterpart Koltira is rather excessively dragged off to be punished by Sylvannas for a minor infraction.

..doubtless this will change and Blizzard will introduce some way to redress the balance of power. But as Garrosh says, the Forsaken are starting to look increasingly like the Scourge, both in method and in power.

 

[The Madman]

You say "Orcs" as if they all agreed to do so, if you look back at the history of Draenor, the orcs lived in peaceful shamanistic society.... snippy snippy, don't worry I read it.... you ignore all the work Thrall did to mend the relations between the Alliance and Horde. He was by far the greatest leader of both sides during his time as Warchief. The problem was that the Alliance weren't willing to compromise and a few Orcs who were too hot headed (Garrosh) let their prejudices get in the way of progress.

Neither side is clean.

You're really going to pull Godwin's Law on Warcraft? Alright, I can play that game.

Spoiler: Spoilered because it's a pretty long pose and I dislike being spammy.

The difference between the German people and the Orcs is simple: The German people were forced into the situation they were by harsh economic conditions, resentment over their treatment in the past war, and a tyrannical government that established a secret service which during the 'night of long knives' proved more than capable of eliminating any dissent. They've also shown considerable regret over those actions, and indeed the ghosts of the last war continue to in many ways haunt Germany to this very day.

The Orc willingly chose to do what they did, all save one tribe which were then expelled not by demons, but by other Orcs. Similarly the Orcish people have not done a single thing to demonstrate regret over their actions. Not a bloody thing. Since we're getting all Godwin in here, after the second world war German civilians were often forced to see what happened in the camps. To see what their government had caused. And as a nation Germany has set a strict system of education and prevention to ensure nothing like that ever happens again.

The Horde by contrast praise the heroes of the first and second war. That fancy armour and hammer Thrall uses for example? That was the very armour and the very weapon used in the second war by the warchief which assassinated the Lion of Azeroth. Don't see German leaders wandering around in SS uniforms for a very good reason; It's bloody offensive to literally EVERYONE!

Hell the Orcs within the Horde continue to invade Ashenvale, to invade Alliance lands. They continue to be aggressive, and they've shown no regret for their actions to the Alliance at any point ever. Again I challenge you, show me one scenario, *one*, where the Orcish peoples of the Horde tried to unconditionally make amends for the countless lives their foolishness cost. For the suffering and destruction they left in their wake.

You can't because they never have.

For all his aplomb Thrall continued to invade Ashenvale, he continued to support the aggression in Alterac, and to support the Forsaken in Arathi (For the record the Forsaken have no reason to be there. The Forsaken were Lordaeron, the plague never spread past the great wall erected there and those lands belong to Stromgarde which was never a Lordaeron nation nor infected by the plague. Stromgarde which, it's worth pointing out, is an Alliance nation. A crumbled and ruined one, but Alliance nonetheless.)

To your average theoretical (This is all fictional after all) human, dwarf or any other Alliance people what has Thrall done for peace? What's the difference between this 'new' Horde and the old one which not a generation ago slew their friends and family?

Not much. Not much at all.

As for the whole Dreanei did it, that's called a transfer of guilt. It's like saying 'its not my fault because maybe if X hadn't done Y I wouldn't have done the terrible things I did'. By that logic and contiuing with the Godwin theme, it's not Hitler's fault for World War 2, it's the Vienna academy of Arts fault for not accepting him as a student. Brilliant.

Good ol' Godwin's law. What would debates over fictional settings be without it?

 

[Terminal Blue]

SNIP

I'm not sure if he's still around. But there used to be an NPC orc war veteran in Durotar or the Barrens (can't remember which) who would have scripted conversations with a friend. It was a cute little piece of lore and had quite a lot of pathos to it.

From that conversation, the blood of Mannoroth was literally a red mist. The orcs affected by it cannot actually remember the things they did in detail, they just remember bits of it. For this guy, whenever he heard the pigs being slaughtered it reminded him of killing human civilians. He clearly felt terrible guilt and regret.

Yes, they chose to drink the blood of Mannoroth, but it's clear many of them didn't know what would happen or what the affects would be. For a warrior culture to be presented with a gift which will make you strong and fearless in battle, that's a tempting offer. It's easy for us to say that making deals with demons is obviously stupid, but every species in the burning legion is proof that the promise of great power is always alluring. Heck, the world of Azeroth was royally messed by a bunch of hugely intelligent night elves because the burning legion has a very good sales pitch. Why expect better of a very down to earth warrior race from a backwater world?

Also, lest we forget, the entire orc race were made slaves and generally mistreated by the humans in the wake of the second war, something which few of them seem to hold much of a grudge for or even mention very much. Orc culture does not seem to focus on apologies or recompense for the past, something which again this can be put down to the demands of a warrior culture in which contrition can be associated with weakness. In a culture which sees public apology as important this might seem arrogant or unremorseful, but you could very easily argue that our culture places too much emphasis on public displays of insincere remorse, when in fact there is a moral point to be made in not asking or expecting forgiveness, especially if you don't demand apologies from others.

 

[dertyqwerty]

I played on a RP server, so I know exactly what you're talking about.
There was one Alliance guild who only allowed their members to be human, they would talk shit about the other races and blame them for everything bad on the Alliance and wouldn't allow them to take part in raids of Horde cities, nor let them in on pugs. It was really creepy and just wrong.

Was their guild leader Garithos? Seriously though that dude was a prick.

Hm I don't know who the GM was but the guild was called the Covenant I think? It was on The Venture Co. server.

 

[infohippie]

PS. As Yahtzee said they don't even have the hottest girls anymore, in fact your average MALE blood elf is prettier than anything the Alliance has.

Ah-HEM. Female Draenei are the prettiest things in the entire game. If I could have played a Draenei and still gone Horde, I would have. But I can't (stupid Blizzard), so I went Alliance. Blood elves are pretty bland, really.

 

[Eggsnham]

I'm not a WoW player, I spent maybe an hour on it at most.

So I'm going to go ahead and say a dick-ish thing; who cares about video game factions and their in-game justifications?

 

[Rpground]

im a dwarf,and the dwarves i noticed dont have a fondness for humans really,i mean they help and stuff.but its mostly for their own benefit to learn more about themselves with the gnomes. hell if i could roll a dwarf as horde i would! but i cant play anything BUT a dwarf...i think its a fetish idk... but yeah though,as a dwarf,our main enemy for centuries were the orcs so you can understand...yeah...old grudges die hard i guess...

 

[The Madman]

I'm not sure if he's still around. But there used to be an NPC orc war veteran in Durotar or the Barrens (can't remember which) who would have scripted conversations with a friend. It was a cute little piece of lore and had quite a lot of pathos to it.

The conversation you're thinking about was almost certainly the one in Warsong hold between Garrosh and Saurfang... what? I had a troll character when I played WOW. I might not like the Orcs or Forsaken story-wise, but Trolls, dey be just fine mon. Tauren are pretty nice guys as well, no problem there.

Spoiler: More long-winded babble about games. What? Its fun to chat about. This is a GAME forum after all.

Anyway that's the only situation in wow where a character compared dying children to pigs (Pretty hardcore comparison, but whatever!). It was Saurfang reprimanding Garrosh for essentially being bloodthirsty in his attacks against the Alliance in the area. Saurfang is also one of two Orcs in WOW that I recall actively showing regret for the deeds of their people, the other being Thrall which is funny because Thrall was only a weeeee baby at the time.

And no, the Alliance did *not* enslave the Orcs. They were put in internment camps, big difference. Couldn't have enslaved them if you'd tried since once they started coming down from their demon blood high, they went into crazy catatonic withdrawal. And before someone says 'internment camp' and drags Godwin kicking and screaming back into the picture, I'll point out not that kind of camp but the prison sort. Some were better than others, but the point was containment, not slavery or extermination.

I mean what else can you do with what essentially amounts to a defeated race of green alien invaders? You can lock em up or you can kill em... that's about it. Can't let em loose, these are the same green dudes that literally just wiped a country off the map and nearly did the same to two others, don't know what they'd do. Can't send em home since the Dark Portal was closed. Don't wanna kill em because that would make you just as bad as they were. So prison then!

Thrall on the other hand was enslaved, but then he also never drank the punch and so was alert. But considering the guy that did it was planning on using Thrall to try and usurp the Alliance, I doubt you could call that any fault of the faction as a whole no more than Kael going all crazy and trying to summon Satan represents all Blood Elves. Heh, funny story, I don't know too much about Varian, he came along around the same point I started losing interest in Warcraft, but pretty damn sure he was enslaved by the Horde at one point. You'd think Thrall would put a stop to that shit since it makes him seem like a massive hypocrite, but I guess it's only bad when the meany humans do it. First screenshot I see when checking to make sure I'm not wrong is Varian all Gladiator style in an arena in Orgrimmar, so couldn't have been terribly secret either. Maybe Thrall's just blind and deaf, not a complete hypocrite? Whatever.

As for the red mist thing, when I drink I get a blurry mist. Doesn't make me any less responsible for my actions afterwards! And even if it isn't in their culture to try and apologize, they need to learn it then if they ever intend to stop fighting... which they seemingly don't, so it's a moot point. This ain't their homeland anymore, they gotta learn the ways or GTFO... or just kill everyone who disagrees with em which seems to be what they're doing.

Might makes right and all that, Lok'tar Ogar and such. I can see why people enjoy em, but I much prefer the 'defender' stereotype myself, that why I enjoyed Lothar from Warcraft 1 and 2.

 

[Hwoof]

I was actually going to start ranting a defense for the alliance when I saw the Godwin's law argument.

I then asked myself: "IS THERE NOTHING SACRED?" and decided against becoming the embodiment of the Alliance vs Horde conflict

This whole thread is making me laugh, because, whilst certainly interesting, it's funny to see how serious it can get.

But anyway, carry on.

 

[Hwoof]

EDIT: TRIPLE POST? WHAT THE