Sexism against men

[retyopy]

Yeah, except no one has said that men have it as bad as or worse than women, people are just specifically talking about issues of sexism that men face, and then you decided to condescend all the men who've been raped, all the men who've been fucked in divorce courts and all the men who've suffered domestic abuse by just telling them to deal with it because women have it so much tougher. You really do make me feel ill.

No I did not tell the men who had to face those atrocities to deal with it. I told the people who have never had to face any such discrimination of this manner, who feel the need to defend the rights of their gender regardless of their privilaged position (I guarantee you it is ALWAYS males complaining about this) and who think that political correctness, progressive attitudes and feminism are creating more or causing the ignorance of more descrimination towars our gender. Those people and only those people I firmly told to deal with it.

Except it's not always males. I've experienced woman saying that the way other woman are treated by men in other countries is awful, all the while sitting on a comfortable couch, watching tv.

 

[Navvan]

The truth is there is sexism against men, and no it isn't right. The reason you don't hear about it is because its not that much of an issue currently. What I mean by this is that when there is sexism against men its not an issue for the standing for men as a whole. Men are generally hold the most control of a business, society and proportionately more influence/power due to historic repression of women. Is that changing due to the feminist movement? Yes, but we aren't at equality yet.

The examples you gave are only "loosely" sexist. Both the movie (two guys get helped by a girl) and the commercial aren't so much a downplay of men as they are an appeal to the underdog. In those scenarios it was expected for the men to win/help the girl because something to that effect is what is normally portrayed in media. Thus by having the females win they make it an underdog story.

The problem with people ignoring male sexism (and I'm talking more signifigant that the underdog stories) is that some day it might actually become a problem. In 100-200 years we may actually have developed a proportionately equal society in terms of power distribution between the sexes and if male sexism at that time is continued to be ignored the roles may become reversed. I'm not really worried about it though as I think once power distribution is equalized sexism won't be much of an issue for either side.

 

[retyopy]

I certainly feel there are huge double standards at work nowadays. Men are portrayed as stupid, boorish, violent and oversexed. Rape against men is funny, etc.

However, I really don't feel like men should feel these stereotypes are all women's fault. Consider that a lot of shows and media that perpetuate these views are produced by men or written by men. I think it's less of a "female conspiracy", and rather an unattractive habit of society in general.

but we aren't blaming women, were in hell did you get THAT?

 

[inquisiti0n]

...of their privilaged position...

...well, you've definitely internalized everything you learned from feminism 101 huh


oh the privilege system, so intricate with all its complexities.
+1 point for being an ethnic minority.
+1 point for being a woman.
x3 point multiplier bonus for being gay.

 

[retyopy]

Yeah, except no one has said that men have it as bad as or worse than women, people are just specifically talking about issues of sexism that men face, and then you decided to condescend all the men who've been raped, all the men who've been fucked in divorce courts and all the men who've suffered domestic abuse by just telling them to deal with it because women have it so much tougher. You really do make me feel ill.

No I did not tell the men who had to face those atrocities to deal with it. I told the people who have never had to face any such discrimination of this manner, who feel the need to defend the rights of their gender regardless of their privilaged position (I guarantee you it is ALWAYS males complaining about this) and who think that political correctness, progressive attitudes and feminism are creating more or causing the ignorance of more descrimination towars our gender. Those people and only those people I firmly told to deal with it.

Seriously, every time you post you just sound more evil, it's scary.
I mean, because how fucking dare someone who hasn't been abused try to stick up for people who have, the fucking nerve. Ugh, I'm done, I don't wanna get banned talking to you.

If you get banned for that, then I will ban myself.

 

[Booradlee]

I only support Feminism in developing countries.
I support Egalitarianism in developed countries.

I like that philosophy.

Thank you. I am am very supportive of women's suffrage, especially in the 1950's.

I just feel there comes a time where simply empowering one side stops helping. All people should be empowered to an extent, but equality will not be reached by pumping all sides with social steroids.

(this is me defining a problem, and hoping that's the same as helping solve a problem)

 

[OmniscientOstrich]

there are an equal number of shows and adverts that paint women as shallow, materialistic and physically weak.

ummmmm.... because they are?

I said that you refuted your own argument because your were opining about how men suffer discrimination and then agreed with the assertion that women are shallow materialistic and physically weak. Let's say that you only meant the one in bold, that's still advocating advertisements that perpetuate a negative stereotype and portray women as incompetant and ineffectual. 'Don't worry puny woman, the men have arrived to lift this heavy thing with ease and confidence. But if you want to feel like your actually worth something by association, why not just cling to my arm.' The point is that kind of marketing is the sort of shit that brings out the worst in both genders.

 

[The Dr0w Ranger]

Ok, I am more one to argue the logic than the numbers, though I still aim for correctness.

First: We need to not equate Rape and Sexism, Rape is a violent crime carried out by violent(for the moment at least) people, on people weaker than them. Sexism is behavioral and in many cases, unrealized and unintentional. That isn't to say there aren't idiots out there with no interest in anything but themselves, thus motivating all sorts of ignorant acts, but as someone above pointed out, sometimes its as simple as offering unnecessary help.

Second: Sexist acts happen dependent on a situation. Guys lose in divorce court/custody disputes, and in a lot of societal pressures. Girls lose in the job market, and in a different set of societal pressures. I think neither gender has it better overall, or at least that no one can prove such, because the impact of an act is relative, based on many MANY factors.

Third: I'd like to posit that equality is a poor term in this case, because racism=/=sexism.
I'd say fairness would be better.
Why you ask? Because in some situations, unlike race, which has little effect on a person's capabilities, girls have(according to wiki) roughly 52 percent the upper body strength of guys and 66 percent the lower body strength of guys. Unlike race where the capabilities are entirely equal, sex actually has an effect.

Equality implies that the same value can be expected from both sides, in many ways, it cannot, look at all of the stupid little studies, or simply read the wiki on sexual dimorphism sometime. Fair means allowing for the inborn strengths and weaknesses of a gender, rather than simply ignoring them as equality must needs do.

Fourth: Numerous does not mean statistically significant, there are girls who hate shopping for example, my girlfriend included. But that doesn't doesn't negate the fact that MOST girls do like shopping, and aiming ads towards them, or portraying such characters on tv isn't going to die out because the 1/20 girls who genuinely defy that stereotype ***** a lot. Wake up call, the other 19 are all out spending money, responding to the ads and identifying with the characters, which means the stereotype will persist.
Some stereotypes are justified, I want to use my job as an example. At my Burger King, we are trained such that if someone orders a meal by number(#1=Whopper Value Meal, etc) we are to give them a small size meal, and with Coke, if the order is drivethru. Know why? Because we strive to get the food ready and to them by the end of 2.5 minutes,and despite the possibility that we will be wrong, asking the necessary questions takes too long. The 1/15 people who wanted a medium with DR. Pepper won't throw enough of a fit to make slowing the other 14 down worth it. Add the fact that people line up, compounding the time lost asking questions, and reasking if the order has multiple meals, and its far more useful to just assume. There are other factors but it remains true.
Sometimes the stereotype is right and the people who don't fit don't like it, but in some cases its better to accept and expect some people to accept the assumption than slog the rest into the muddy waters of DEALING with it, where true injustice can occur, rather than simple misinformation.

 

[Kafka Torkarev]

SOOOOOOOOOO WAIT, does this mean i cant look at a female human and say DAAAAMN LOOKIT DAT ASS!?

 

[retyopy]

Ok, I am more one to argue the logic than the numbers, though I still aim for correctness.

First: We need to not equate Rape and Sexism, Rape is a violent crime carried out by violent(for the moment at least) people, on people weaker than them. Sexism is behavioral and in many cases, unrealized and unintentional. That isn't to say there aren't idiots out there with no interest in anything but themselves, thus motivating all sorts of ignorant acts, but as someone above pointed out, sometimes its as simple as offering unnecessary help.

Second: Sexist acts happen dependent on a situation. Guys lose in divorce court/custody disputes, and in a lot of societal pressures. Girls lose in the job market, and in a different set of societal pressures. I think neither gender has it better overall, or at least that no one can prove such, because the impact of an act is relative, based on many MANY factors.

Third: I'd like to posit that equality is a poor term in this case, because racism=/=sexism.
I'd say fairness would be better.
Why you ask? Because in some situations, unlike race, which has little effect on a person's capabilities, girls have(according to wiki) roughly 52 percent the upper body strength of guys and 66 percent the lower body strength of guys. Unlike race where the capabilities are entirely equal, sex actually has an effect.

Equality implies that the same value can be expected from both sides, in many ways, it cannot, look at all of the stupid little studies, or simply read the wiki on sexual dimorphism sometime. Fair means allowing for the inborn strengths and weaknesses of a gender, rather than simply ignoring them as equality must needs do.

Fourth: Numerous does not mean statistically significant, there are girls who hate shopping for example, my girlfriend included. But that doesn't doesn't negate the fact that MOST girls do like shopping, and aiming ads towards them, or portraying such characters on tv isn't going to die out because the 1/20 girls who genuinely defy that stereotype ***** a lot. Wake up call, the other 19 are all out spending money, responding to the ads and identifying with the characters, which means the stereotype will persist.
Some stereotypes are justified, I want to use my job as an example. At my Burger King, we are trained such that if someone orders a meal by number(#1=Whopper Value Meal, etc) we are to give them a small size meal, and with Coke, if the order is drivethru. Know why? Because we strive to get the food ready and to them by the end of 2.5 minutes,and despite the possibility that we will be wrong, asking the necessary questions takes too long. The 1/15 people who wanted a medium with DR. Pepper won't throw enough of a fit to make slowing the other 14 down worth it. Add the fact that people line up, compounding the time lost asking questions, and reasking if the order has multiple meals, and its far more useful to just assume. There are other factors but it remains true.
Sometimes the stereotype is right and the people who don't fit don't like it, but in some cases its better to accept and expect some people to accept the assumption than slog the rest into the muddy waters of DEALING with it, where true injustice can occur, rather than simple misinformation.

What does this have to do with anything? I understand that stereotypes have been brought up, but try to link it to the thread in some way.

 

[Panda Mania]

Men don't have it much better? *shuffles feet* Well...Eh, I guess by our standards, it all looks pretty terrible. But if you lower your perspective and look at the society on its own, women do not have the same rights as men do. Not in a "oh, they're just different rights" way, but in a "their worth is less than that of men" way. And human rights is the answer to such a society, but a part of human rights is about equality and equal opportunity, and that includes the equality of the sexes.

I think saying that "more" rights automatically means they have it better is kind of shallow. Working conditions in third countries are terrible, though the ones working the worst jobs there are usually the men. Men also have far more responsibility, both in and out of the family, and generally face more stress. Not to mention that third world countries have a lot of wars and conflicts, which are almost exclusively fought by men. And stuff like conscription, etc.

Again, I would never make a broad statement that either sex undeniably has it worse than the other, I just think you're vastly oversimplifying it if you're only looking at rights.

*thinking face* That is probably oversimplifying it. A lot of things are far below the ideal over there. Perhaps the solution is to, as people work to better all of those conditions, to shift some of that massive responsibility over to women. In the name of equality, distribute the responsibility. Responsibility is, interestingly enough, entangled with the concept of rights, because when you're entitled to something, you're also responsible for it. It's not a bad thing, it just means that both men and women must share the workload. With equal rights, things can improve a lot quicker because you allow women to work. In fact, some economists theorize that countries that oppress their female population are crippling themselves economically*, and this is why nations like China, which realized this and set its women to work in factories, are so economically successful. As for conflict, well....that should just end, regardless of gender involvement. (On a potentially explosive tangent, would there be less war if more women were in power? Who knows...)

*Okay, my source on this (and actually a lot of my position) comes from the excellent book Half the Sky , which explains in detail a lot of the situations of women in developing countries, and (even better) discusses and suggests solutions for them. I highly recommend it.

 

[OmniscientOstrich]

Except it's not always males. I've experienced woman saying that the way other woman are treated by men in other countries is awful, all the while sitting on a comfortable couch, watching tv.

I was under the impression that we were discussing the situation within our nations of residence. The ones that we can actually draw experience from and adequately assess the current state of affairs for. That's the thing that annoys me, people who complain of mistreatment of gender when they have had no experience of this themselves, or have seen it happen to those around them.

 

[MassiveGeek]

I do think that somewhere, somehow, femenism went from the awesome sexual freedom, YEAH accompanied by playboy bunny chicks to the less awesome but fair equality in all major instances, woooh and now somehow ended in...

The same situation as it was in the middle ages but with women instead of men at the top, yay!

That's of course not completely accurate and not all feminists think that way, but it seems that it has somehow turned out taht way. I mean, look at all the inequalities for men, they get judged on points women aren't judged on, like clothing(men can't wear what they want without people hurling), interests(if you like things that are considered "too" nerdy or such people disregard your interests) and how they act(I ran out of examples).

I just think it's bullshit.
Really.

I would've added more here but it's 04.00 here, so sleep.

 

[inquisiti0n]

Let's say that you only meant the one in bold...

That's exactly what I meant. Didn't wanna take the word out of the sentence because there would be no context, so I bolded what I was referring to.

...that's still advocating advertisements that perpetuate a negative stereotype and portray women as incompetant and ineffectual. 'Don't worry puny woman, the men have arrived to lift this heavy thing with ease and confidence. But if you want to feel like your actually worth something by association, why not just cling to my arm.' The point is that kind of marketing is the sort of shit that brings out the worst in both genders.

Ok now it just sounds like you're twisting a harmless joke into some incredibly offensive personal insult. Is it that you feel degraded by having to ask someone (who happens to be a man) stronger than you for help? If you see a woman unable to lift something heavy, and view that as, "well she's incompetent," that says more about you than whatever the media is portraying.

That's the thing that annoys me, people who complain of mistreatment of gender when they have had no experience of this themselves, or have seen it happen to those around them.

So I can't complain about sexist divorce laws & alimony until I'm financially bleeded dry by a bitter ex-wife?

Guess I can't care about rape victims either until they affect me or my direct family/friends.

 

[OmniscientOstrich]

I just wanna know if you're one of those feminists who go so far as to ignore the physical differences between the sexes.

Who said that I was a feminist?

 

[inquisiti0n]

^if you're not a feminist, then it's quite a coincidence how your views align so closely with theirs.

 

[OmniscientOstrich]

The point is that kind of marketing is the sort of shit that brings out the worst in both genders.

Ok now it just sounds like you're twisting a harmless joke into some incredibly offensive personal insult. Is it that you feel degraded by having to ask someone (who happens to be a man) stronger than you for help? If you see a woman unable to lift something heavy, and view that as, "well she's incompetent," that says more about you than whatever the media is portraying.

The point is, that kind of marketing is just the lowest common denominator. It's the sort of thing that tries define people by their most basic stereotypical perceptions. It unecessarily reinforces, tired and outdated gender rolls insulting viewers of both genders. It's saying to the male 'this product will you to impress girls, since that's basically the crux of your entire existence isn't it you lecherous fuck?' And to the women 'if you don't have a man who's going to help you lift that thing? Fix your car? Keep you company those lone winter nights? Your life isn't fulfilled unless your married by 30.' It tries to portray both sexes as being fundamentally useless on their own and only given any significence in finding somebody else to fuck. But whatever, a lot of you seem to spinning my words and labelling me a feminist, so fuck this thread. Adios.