Sexism in gaming, do we really give a f**k?

[flarty]

OK to start off you gotta think real carefully before saying everyone who's complaining must be doing so for X reason especially one that's that condescending. There are women complaining about this stuff too, straight women even, so it's not all trying to get laid.

And I guess you must not have heard but the typical counter to gears of war rebuttal is that they make the men strong for power fantasies. It kind of makes sense but at the same time there's no reason for Kratos to be shirtless all the time other then trying to appeal to women or gay men (same with 300).

The laid thing was me being satirical, like the rest of the post. I felt there was no other way of approaching this ridiculous matter. As for the gears thing, i did say it was rooted in fantasy. I didn't mean homosexual fantasy i just meant fantasy period.

Perhaps I misunderstand you. Are you saying we shouldnt discuss sexism, perceived sexism, fantasy tropes, and how those make gaming look to those not part of our medium?

I dont mind if you dont care about the discussion regarding sexism. Just as I dont mind if you dont want to be part of the discussion of the artistic merit behind games. However I wholeheartedly believe that these are discussions we have to have if our medium is to move forward into a respected art form. If you dont care about these discussions, thats fine, but I have to ask: why do you insist on being a part of discussions that you dont care about? I just dont understand the mentality you say you have

I honestly don't think we do need to discuss this to move the medium on. The medium is progressing perfectly fine. I find its the poorly written games with poor story and characters that are portraying over sexualised images of women. All the well written games have very well written female characters. Enslaved, Bioshock, HL2, Mass Effect, Dead Space 2, Deus EX: HR, The witcher. Theres just a lot of trashy story telling out there aswell where this shit flys. Same as the film and music industry. Guess who buys all of the pussycat dolls shit?

Hitman's image plays to the male fantasy of the "forbidden fruit" being sexualized and made available for objectification.

Sorry i read this, laughed and stopped reading. Really? i think your reading too much into it, i see nuns in latex holding guns. That isn't pandering to my sexual desires. Its so over the top its fucking hilarious. But if it panders to yours, what ever floats your boat.

Except that isn't sexualisation of men, that is a power fantasy and just makes me think I should work out more. Male sexual objectification would be him wearing some kind of jock strap that is struggling to hold in some monster cock and balls the size of apples, while shirtless and ripped like the gears of war guys.

*Smashes head against the wall.

Read the post, i said it was rooted in fantasy, not sexual fantasy.

 

[NoeL]

Funnily enough this kind of design is one of the many reasons I started hating jrpg's after Final Fantasy 9. It's, and I run the risk of being crass and politically incorrect here, extremely gay.

And now you can appreciate precisely why heterosexual women aren't terribly fond of female characters designed to appease the male sex fantasy - except in your case it's trivial to find games that don't make you uncomfortable, whereas for women it's almost hard to avoid. They have less of a selection to choose from.

Also... can these threads PLEASE just die?

 

[flarty]

The whole thing as a girl to me is kinda silly... I just saw the sorceress trailer for dragon crown, well I laugh a lot, it was so ridiculous that I could not help it... I'm not offended by it even if it does really look silly. Personally I would just hope there was more game that offered better females characters... Guess it will come Intime as the female community keep growing, but well the sooner the better. But we'll if that shit sell, so be it

Fantastic post. This is my ultimate point, there depictions are so ridiculous and over the top, how are we supposed to take them seriously. If women were always portrayed as villans and in a bad light or always portrayed as damsels in distress as helpless, then yes, it would be time to have this discussion.

Also whilst there is a lot of well written female characters in the medium. There's no where near enough well written female protagonists.

 

[omega 616]

Except that isn't sexualisation of men, that is a power fantasy and just makes me think I should work out more.

LOL, no. I'm sorry, but there is a reason why almost every female table top gamer i've ever gamed with has created a svelte heroine, with an ample behind & an bodacious rack... An its not because of some kind of sexism mind ray: Its because such a form is actually a female power fantasy

Sure about that one? Fashion, celebs and mags have been having a hard time from the public about unrealistic body proportions, like size 0 with big tits and a "ghetto booty" is THE figure to have, the legendary hour glass shape (girls have boob jobs and one singer had butt implants). Fashion has these skin and bones models, which girls try to emulate ... a girl recently died from trying to attain that body with DNP.

People want to be attractive so they project that on to the characters they make, an ample behind & an bodacious rack is seen as attractive. I know I'm guilty of such a thing and bet loads of other people are ... in saints row the third, did you make a buff guy or a fat sack of lard? Did you turn the sexuality meter up or down? Unless people were trolling they made a skinny woman with a big rack or a buff guy with a dick like horse, maybe not 100% accurate but I bet the numbers went that way.

By trolling I mean, put all the sliders all the way to the top or bottom, made the skin blue and went with a zombie voice.

I've actually found the women I've asked about ripped guys don't like them to be too ripped, they said they liked muscle and strength but not body builder levels.

*Smashes head against the wall.

Read the post, i said it was rooted in fantasy, not sexual fantasy.

Yet your title is "SEXISM in gaming" if you want to talk about fantasy don't put sexism in your title.

Or are you really trying to argue that the reason that boobs are so big and men are so ripped is 'cos of fantasy books and movies ... 'cos if you are, oh dear.

 

[Entitled]

This reminds me of this picture about how male characters and costumes would be designed if they would ACTUALLY try to be sexually objectifying:

 

[flarty]

Yet your title is "SEXISM in gaming" if you want to talk about fantasy don't put sexism in your title.

Or are you really trying to argue that the reason that boobs are so big and men are so ripped is 'cos of fantasy books and movies ... 'cos if you are, oh dear.

*Continues to smash head against the wall.

I'm trying to demonstrate how over the top and ridiculous portrayals of men are as well of women in the industry, if you feel its a sexual fantasy fine, if you think its a power fantasy fine too. But what ever fantasy you associate it to. ITS STILL FUCKING RIDICULOUS.

 

[NoeL]

except in your case it's trivial to find games that don't make you uncomfortable, whereas for women it's almost hard to avoid. They have less of a selection to choose from.

Except you are conflating your stated uncomfortableness with those of all women. All women don't hold your personal beliefs. In fact many saw it & didn't think anything of it at all. Its a deliberate conflation to pretend that these two things are even remotely the same.

I'm struggling to understand what you're trying to say. Could you please clarify it for me?

"you are conflating your stated uncomfortableness"
Where did I state my discomfort? I think you just erroneously assumed I'm a woman here.

"many saw it & didn't think anything of it"
What is "it"? You lost me here.

"Its a deliberate conflation to pretend that these two things are even remotely the same"
How so? The guy isn't comfortable playing as someone that doesn't represent his sexual interest (i.e. a "gay", pretty boy), and many girls aren't comfortable playing as tarted up tramps.

 

[AlbertoDeSanta]

It's really starting to get annoying how many threads about Sexism is popping up. If we could all just get off the sexism debate and move onto something more important, that'd be great (Someone can make that into Meme form and post it if they want).

Ultimately, games and all other media have -ism's pretty much everywhere. How can we change this? At the source. If we all treated each other equally, there'd be no need to cry "That's Sexist!" when some large chested woman in a bikini comes onto our screen. We need to grow up. Not just us Video Gamers, but everyone. Your mother, your father, everyone who is breathing and living at this time, needs to grow up. Then we wouldn't have to say that a big busted woman in a video game is sexist.

 

[omega 616]

Yet your title is "SEXISM in gaming" if you want to talk about fantasy don't put sexism in your title.

Or are you really trying to argue that the reason that boobs are so big and men are so ripped is 'cos of fantasy books and movies ... 'cos if you are, oh dear.

*Continues to smash head against the wall.

I'm trying to demonstrate how over the top and ridiculous portrayals of men are as well of women in the industry, if you feel its a sexual fantasy fine, if you think its a power fantasy fine too. But what ever fantasy you associate it to. ITS STILL FUCKING RIDICULOUS.

So you made a thread about fantasy then get angry when people talk about what kind of fantasy.

By the by *smashes head against wall* thing, is that meant to be funny or what?

\ Unless people were trolling they made a skinny woman with a big rack or a buff guy with a dick like horse, maybe not 100% accurate but I bet the numbers went that way.

By trolling I mean, put all the sliders all the way to the top or bottom, made the skin blue and went with a zombie voice.

Sweet, I made an anomaly!

That was pretty much my SR3 character, competent looking, and badass in a suit. A lot of my modern RPG characters are similar too. I aspire to the James Bond version of heros (or in my case villains) Well dressed and proportioned, and competent.

So not that much of an anomaly? You made James Bond, an action hero?

 

[Woodsey]

I'm not sure how many times it needs to be explained that Big Ol' Burly Marcus is still a male fantasy playing out on screen.

And the reason the Hitman trailer was shit was because of context. The series, especially Blood Money, has always featured weird hyper-sexualisation, and very much with a point. It's still driven somewhat by context, however. No one turns up at a motel in the middle of fucking nowhere in latex gear for funsies. Someone looked at Blood Money, didn't 'get it' in the slightest beyond "hurr durr", and stuck it in a trailer.

So yes, some of us give a shit. Mostly because it'd be nice to see some well written characters.

Yeah, and I hope people keep talking about it until the industry starts to change. I want to be comfortable with the games I play and proud of the games I work on.

Wait you play games that make you uncomfortable? How does that work? And why would you do that?

I don't know about you but I don't ruin games in their entirety before playing them just to check as to whether or not they're going to suit my tastes to a tee. And I reserve the right to criticise them when they do something I don't like. That's, you know, what half the gaming media revolves around.

 

[The_Echo]

The way I see it, if we tell the developers they need to make whatever sort of game, the game they make will be bad.

The best games are the ones devs actually want to do, not the ones they feel they have to.

That said, I really don't even see an issue with sexism in gaming. It's just stupid. What's that? The characters have been designed to be appealing? Characters whose gender is effectively only cosmetic default to male in a sausagefest industry?

Spoiler: OOOOOOOOOOOOOH NOOOOO

Nobody has the right to complain about oversexualized women if they aren't going to complain about overmasculine men in games. That's sexist.

 

[SecondPrize]

I care more about the income inequality and poor representation of female developers in all facets of the industry than I do about characterization within games. If you get that evened out, then we'll get a wider range of female characters.
It isn't always a horrible thing to have exaggerated characters. Sometimes it's fun. I'd hate for there to be one small range of possible options for female characters because of worries about not causing a stir.

 

[WindKnight]

Yeah, and I hope people keep talking about it until the industry starts to change. I want to be comfortable with the games I play and proud of the games I work on.

Wait you play games that make you uncomfortable? How does that work? And why would you do that?

OT: Nope i find the whole thing silly , but gamers like to complain.

well, if i can copy and paste a quote from this [http://www.themarysue.com/games-with-female-protagonists/] mary sue article:

'And as for those hypothetical men who would feel ?awkward? about seeing a female protagonist ?kiss another dude? ? okay, putting aside how immature that notion is, I feel compelled to note that games make me feel awkward all the time. Every time a game puts me in skimpy chainmail without offering an alternative, every time the women in the game are only there to be rescued or ogled, every time a game imparts the message that women are weak or vapid or just not good enough, I am left feeling awkward. And yet, I love games anyway. I?m still here, going bleary-eyed over strategy guides and handing over my hard-earned cash. If I can remain this loyal after the onslaught of awkward that games have put me through, then trust me. The dudes will be fine.'