Sexism in gaming, do we really give a f**k?

[generals3]

Look, you. If you can see that character designs like this make you uncomfortable, is it really such a stretch to figure out that some people might feel the same way about female character designs? And that like you, that doesn't necessarily mean that they're planning to tear down the companies that made those games and burn them to ashes, they might just be a bit sick of seeing them?

That would be true if those complaining wouldn't pull the "sexism" card. When you use a social issue/controversy to back up your argument it's quite obvious you want to burn something into the ground. There is a massive difference between saying "i would like more female characters like "x" because i'm sick of "y" " and "Making characters like "x" is sexist!". What angers people is the latter type of argument, not former. The former might be followed by disagreement and maybe even anger by some who're passionate about their own (and opposite) opinion but in general you won't have nearly as much aggressiveness present.

 

[flarty]

So you made a thread about fantasy then get angry when people talk about what kind of fantasy.

By the by *smashes head against wall* thing, is that meant to be funny or what?

Thats what it feels like when you talk to someone who didn't read the post properly, or did read it then subconsciously added in words at certain parts.

But is this over masculine portrayal any worse than the over sexualised depiction of women in video games. Its rooted in the same place, its rooted in "fantasy".

Read it, then read it again. Until you can understand that I did not say the 2 where the same fantasy.

Look at them big burly men, with their big over exaggerated arms, and their tiny heads. With marcus fenix holding his gun like its a large semi erect penis. Its fucking faggy. Yet none of us complained, no one complained, many of us liked the gow games (they suck btw).

Well, I've read through all five pages of this thread and I've seen like... Two or three people call out the OP on this, which is kind of disheartening. Welcome to the Escapist, where we get so distracted by talking about how sexism doesn't matter or exist that we'll miss the blatant homophobia dropped right into the middle of the OP. How can you say with a straight face that the stuff that people complain about doesn't matter when you'll pretty much immediately turn around and call the fantasy of a male character, not even a sexual fantasy either, just a power fantasty, "faggy"? And he's not the only one:

No where did i say i hate gays. I used a slang term for homosexual to describe something as homoerotic. Sorry if it offends you. I don't even truly think its homoerotic, i suppose i was trying to illustrate how easy it is to read too much in to trash.

I think i need to call upon the power of one of my idols here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0q15cWSXP0

 

[SecondPrize]

Are you suggesting that it isn't a problem when average salaries in various positions in the industry differ based on your junk?

They don't differ due to junk, they differ due to a handful of legitimate differences, from educational level, extra hours, to when one was hired, to how long one has worked at a particualr company, to how much you could leverage your skills for.

If a company could get away with paying women less, companies would only hire women.

Ah. Funny how male workers have the advantage in all of those categories so it works out to look exactly like it differs due to junk.

 

[Something Amyss]

I just don't really see it is an issue.

You just spent a decent amount of time arguing it, which belies the notion that you don't "give a f**k" or "see it as an issue."

Though now I want to see big burly women become a mainstay and see how well they sell.

 

[ItsNotRudy]

I love how slutty costumes in videogames are the biggest sin in the industry according to the fanbase, because 'that's not how an independent woman dresses *stomp ground*- but apparently the professions where women have to wear similar or even skimpier outfits are totally fine (models anyone?)

I don't see why women as a whole are offended by crazy outfits, because let's face it- there are particular groups of you who wear the same stuff with pleasure. Not small groups either (sluts, cosplayers, models, actresses, game girls, pornstars.. are they all victims?)

The latter chose her path because she's a person. The former is a greasy neckbeard fapping to a mutilated Frankensteining of human-ish traits (all of which are about his dick) with barely a thing to do with actual women. Then he'll complain about ugly bitches or do a billion other things that aren't showering.

http://www.fightersgeneration.com/nx4/game/doa5milascreen2.jpgFor reference, just getting that face will cost you something like $50 and half a day in haircuts, hair dye and makeup. Per week.

He's not a feral dog though

Yes he is. The shit he's been through turned him into one. He doesn't give a single fuck anymore. That's his entire background.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say with the greasy neckbeard thing? Videogame characters don't have a choice, so it's wrong? Oh dear..

 

[Fynik]

... I like being obtuse and ambiguous, thank you. It gives me a chance to practice blathering on about tangential points - have you seen Iron Man 3? By the way? Good movie, that - while still remaining somewhat on topic. Besides, if you know what I think I'm saying and you can decipher it so that you can take the time to point out you know what I think I know so we both know what I think I'm saying, then I think my point might have gotten across anyway.

I mean, you're an intelligent man. You'll work it out.

I can wait. I've got time. Endless amounts of it. And a thesaurus to get through so I can be even more... uuuh, shiny, "Obfuscating" or "Ambivalent towards a point".
--

If you choose the two of us as an example of a trend, in this thread, you'd be ignoring the huge parts of the thread visible to both of us that offered more information. Your lower sample size and narrow view would make your point less salient, less true, given the easy availability of information arguing against it.

You know this, and you also know it applies to the actual focus, ie, wage gaps and sexism.

 

[knight steel]

Personally I'm not that bothered by it however I would prefer it if there wasn't so much of it-some more normal figured realistic people of both gender would be nice.

However if you want a more in depth view of sexism here's my view [this applies more to real life]:

Spoiler: My view

Sexism
What has caused sexism-this is a question we ask ourselves many times as a culture-a community-and as a society-is it the government fault?-Religion?-Ignorance?-Biology?- The truth is that it?s a mixture of all of these together.
You see each human is fundamentally different from each other, more so when it comes to gender for while we might feel uncomfortable admitting it there are many differences between the sexes as a result of the way we are born Mean are on average born stronger-Women are born with the ability to give birth ect ect
These things in and of themselves are not bad however society has twisted them so-for you see society has reflected and magnified these differences integrating them into our very being and culture to the point of harm were exemptions are not allowed and the original differences have become blown out of proportions.
This has resulted in us forgetting one very important thing-that in the end regardless of our sex we are still both Human with the same basic needs-wants-and feelings-and as we forget this -inequality towards those of the opposite sex were born and sexism was created.
Fortunately over time this has been slowly exposed with people banding together to change and confront it-however in the attempt to change a problem has arisen-a different form of sexism in and of itself has formed-the idea and belief that sexism only occurs to women/that sexism towards men is not as important.
Perhaps this is due to the more obvious nature of sexism against women-or perhaps sexism towards women comes across as more damaging but sexism towards Men does exist and can be just as harmful and as damaging to not just men but to women as well.
This sexism towards men is not new either-but in fact just as old as sexism towards women has been and continues to this day-examples include: women and children first in crisis situation, the degradation and mocking towards a man not being ?manly enough?, women receiving less jail time for committing the same crime?s as their male counterpart?s.
And yet many people deny this and the mere act of mentioning sexism against men is enough for you to be shouted at and silenced. So why is this case?-the cause mostly stems from a fear that recognizing sexism against men will undermine the recognition of sexism against women undoing the efforts that they have made in the field.
Is this fear well founded-yes and no-some people will use sexism against men to silence women, however these are but a few and do not represent those genuinely interested in men right?s and should not be used in turn to completely silence those who are genuine.
So how can we fix this-simple-we work together both men right?s activist?s and feminist?s, instead of fighting each other over which sexism exists/is worse and competing which only weaken both sides and encourages sexism we must instead join-no more sexism against women-no more sexism against men-there is just sexism the unequal treatment based on gender that affects us all. Instead of women right/men rights movement there should just be a human rights movement?s which combines and target?s the problems of both genders equally.

 

[Xanex]

Interesting. After reading through the thread. It seems the quick draw feminists are creating a "boy who cried wolf" scenario for alot of people. To many things blown out of proportion or context is actually making it harder to get people to care about their cause.

 

[flarty]

This thread is absolutely appalling. Yes, sexism anywhere is a huge deal, we as people who love games need to drag our medium past these juvenile tendencies. The fact that you call GoW "fucking faggy", and say that gamers are socially inadequate shows your ignorance.
It's pretty ease to say sexism isn't a big deal when you are obviously a straight male.

You know that giant beefy men is a common criticism thrown at GoW? Right?

And if you don't like talking about sexism, how come you made a thread about it?

And the homphobic slurs, was that really called for?

The post was supposed to be satirical, since i find the whole thing ridiculous. Sorry if i was to subtle when i said i would of become a pool boy to bang chicks, or when i said marcus fenix is holding his gun like a semi erect penis.

And, to answer one of the questions in your post - I don't go and discuss sexism at the music labels because I give zero fucks about the music industry and don't interact with it beyond buying music. I do discuss sexism in the gaming industry because I give a rather large number of fucks for the gaming industry and would like to see it improve in it's representation of women and minorities.

So you don't care about sexual discrimination at all, your just worried about how you favorite past time might be portrayed?

 

[maninahat]

I think it's amusing that most of these sexism/feminism threads are started by people who are sick and tired of sexism/feminism discussions. In the Gaming subforum of the Escapist we now have:

-"do we really give a fuck about sexism" thread (criticism of the sexism debates on the Escapist)
- "the final proof" thread (criticism of kotaku-writer's sexism allegations)
- "wow...just wow" thread (criticism of 'feminist rhetoric')

In addition, most of the numerous Sarkeesian threads that have popped up during the past year have been complaint-threads about Sarkeesian and her project... Sure looks like people don't want to talk about sexism and feminism... (and when I say talk I mean complain and ridicule).

Yeah, who knew that it takes so much effort to be uninterested in a subject?

On places like rockpapershotgun.com (where the editors tend to discuss female issues in gaming), there will always be someone in the comments who declares how sick he is of reading these kinds of articles, how everyone should shut up, and how he is going to leave the website. That guy (and the others like him) always show up again to say the same thing again for the next article. It's like turning up to a lecture, only so you can storm out of it.

Apathy isn't an argument. If you don't give a damn about the issue, commit nothing, fuck off and stop getting involved. Although, I'd prefer it if you weren't apathetic, because a status quo depends on those who abstain.

 

[flarty]

I just don't really see it is an issue.

You just spent a decent amount of time arguing it, which belies the notion that you don't "give a f**k" or "see it as an issue."

Though now I want to see big burly women become a mainstay and see how well they sell.

So I'm not allowed to voice my opinion of why i don't see it as an issue, then give my reasons its because i believe people are over analyzing ridiculous portrayals of demographics that could never be taken seriously?

 

[Fynik]

@flarty:

... Satirical of what? The viewpoint that sexism sucks, or the viewpoint that it doesn't? Or.. what? What "Whole thing" do you find so ridiculous here - the burly men, the slim women or the discussion we have about those things?

Nothing in your original post or this thread hints that you are doing this for the purpose of satire, and if you are, it's not a form of satire I can understand. That happens often, I'm not a very clever robot, but it doesn't make a whole sense here.

If you're satirizing the common viewpoint that sexism is not an issue... Then you are doing so quite poorly.

If you're satirizing the common viewpoint that sexism is an issue... then you are doing quite poorly.

If you're satirizing the common viewpoint that people often talk out their ass while drunk at the pub... you're actually doing that quite well.

If you're satirizing the common viewpoint that sexism is a topic we discuss a lot recently then you are doing that quite poorly.

Your OP is not "satirical". It's a slam against people, poolboys, GoW and Hitman and women, men, people. Try again, sometime. If it is intended as satire, it is, indeed, satire on a plane so subtle than the planck length feels large and jealous..

@

 

[SecondPrize]

Ah. Funny how male workers have the advantage in all of those categories so it works out to look exactly like it differs due to junk.

How are they given any advantage in any of those categories? Are women now banned from institutes of higer education? Actually women outnumber men at universities & there are any number of general federal level scholarships for women, yet none for men & then there are tech specific women only scholarships.

Or how about the time when you get hired? How is being at the right place at the right time, when there is a particular skill shortage based on gender?

How is working overtime based on gender? Its not like the boss comes in & says "anyone with a penis is working late tonight." The fact is that women still priorities time over earning potential & frankly i'd say they get the better end of the deal: Sure they get paid slightly less for working slightly less, but you know what? They get to go do something more interesting... Its a work life balance thing.

Average male salaries are higher. You're saying the reason is of those categories. That salaries are demonstrably higher for males would suggest that males have the advantage in those categories, if you were correct and it's based on those variables instead of gender.

 

[f1r2a3n4k5]

How are we not? Indie games and mobile games, have and are expanding the people who play games and the definition of what it means to be a "gamer". People are also fully capable of making new games to fill the other niche groups, who might become mainstream. If you can't find a publisher or private investor, then there is kick-starter and other forms of crowd funding and even without that with enough time dedication and ability, it is possible to create the beginnings of a well loved game. Minecraft, Notch started it alone in a basement.

Personally I think that rather then "lobbying" EA or other companies to bow down to political correctness, it would be best if the big companies (more importantly shareholders) learn how profitable it can be to include even more demographics.

I'd say we aren't by making threads on popular gaming sites openly professing not to care if our hobby is sexist. As if our opinion should supersede that of people who feel it is sexist. It's a homogeneous culture projecting that they don't care how homogeneous it is and they have no desire to change. Is that going to attract people?

It would be different, if as you said, these games were being made anyway. But I think there's ample evidence to suggest not only is the female demographic not being represented, it's being suppressed.
(http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/123139-Devs-Had-to-Demand-Female-Focus-Testers-for-The-Last-of-Us)
So we should care.

 

[flarty]

@flarty:

... Satirical of what? The viewpoint that sexism sucks, or the viewpoint that it doesn't? Or.. what? What "Whole thing" do you find so ridiculous here - the burly men, the slim women or the discussion we have about those things?

Nothing in your original post or this thread hints that you are doing this for the purpose of satire, and if you are, it's not a form of satire I can understand. That happens often, I'm not a very clever robot, but it doesn't make a whole sense here.

If you're satirizing the common viewpoint that sexism is not an issue... Then you are doing so quite poorly.

If you're satirizing the common viewpoint that sexism is an issue... then you are doing quite poorly.

If you're satirizing the common viewpoint that people often talk out their ass while drunk at the pub... you're actually doing that quite well.

If you're satirizing the common viewpoint that sexism is a topic we discuss a lot recently then you are doing that quite poorly.

Your OP is not "satirical". It's a slam against people, poolboys, GoW and Hitman and women, men, people. Try again, sometime. If it is intended as satire, it is, indeed, satire on a plane so subtle than the planck length feels large and jealous..

@

satire
  Use Satire in a sentence
sat·ire
[sat-ahyuhr] Show IPA
noun
1.
the use of irony, sarcasm, ridicule, or the like, in exposing, denouncing, or deriding vice, folly, etc.

My analysis of the GOW image was ridiculous and sarcastic. But if you rather read it a serious tone be my guest. My generalization of the people who find the issue important, was sarcastic and ridiculous (all generalization are ridiculous). But if you think its a fair point i was making more shame you. If you think i would really think i'd get to bang more chicks by becoming a pool boy then i really am lost for words.

 

[maninahat]

but it does affect me, so I do care.

Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm not flaming - just genuinely interested.

How does it effect you?

Video games & comics = Make the women as sexy as possible for men, make the men as unattractive as possible for women.

For me, "equal opportunity sexy" is the one thing JRPGs are still doing right, as well as KMMOs & CMMOs.

Am I really just saying that men have to be Asian in order to be sexy? No! They just need less muscle, a clean shaven face, styled hair, & to show off a little more skin, or something skin-tight yet frilly & flamboyant. TERA Online has the right idea with it's armor.

You realise every thing you just said is based entirely on your own opinion? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Maybe some woman like massive beards, unstlyed haired or even bald men who wear 10inch thick woolen jumpers, instead of pale vampiric goth chaps. TERA Online has the right idea *For you* Just because you're happy with it doesn't make it perfect for all, or non-sexist.

Also, your first sentence is quite offensive. Not only do you clump every man together with your sexist beliefs, you also do the exact same with women right after!

If you honestly believe that the subjectivity of beauty excuses the way characters are designed, then you'd have no right to complain if, for example, every character was designed as semi-naked, wrinkly old person. After all, it's only *your* opinion that they are unattractive - perhaps someone out there might be turned on by old people, so it's totally fine as it is and you should stop complaining.

The point being made is that game designers rarely make a conspicuous effort to design male characters that are physically appealing to female gamers. Whilst what women find attractive tends to vary (and there is perhaps a woman out there who does find Marcus Fenix attractive), it isn't hard to figure out what most women tend to find sexy, and nor is it too much effort to try. But games don't, and few characters are made with any consideration to women. This is in contrast to female character design. Game designers seem to have no trouble in making them appealing for male gamers.