Sexism in gaming, do we really give a f**k?

[Rob Robson]

So long as the predominant gaming market consists primarily of heterosexual males in their teens-20s

Actually, there are more men between 25 and 35 playing video games than there are 15-25.

 

[Jenvas1306]

Are we gonna talk about sexism against men too? Cause that is usually a bit more subtile and not as chewed threw...

GoW is a good example, those guys are very limited in their expression and handling of feelings and in my experiance, lots of men have the same issues, or is that not as interessting?

 

[flarty]

And, to answer one of the questions in your post - I don't go and discuss sexism at the music labels because I give zero fucks about the music industry and don't interact with it beyond buying music. I do discuss sexism in the gaming industry because I give a rather large number of fucks for the gaming industry and would like to see it improve in it's representation of women and minorities.

So you don't care about sexual discrimination at all, your just worried about how you favorite past time might be portrayed?

I... what? Is that really how your going to go about this? Really? Well, it's a sexism thread on the Escapist, so I should have been expecting it...

There is a major part of my post there that you seem to have glossed over completely - the part where I say 'Don't interact with it beyond buying music'. I have no further interactions with the music industry. I'm not involved in it in any way, I am not a practitioner of music or even a very big fan of music the general music industry produces save a handful of bands. I know next to nothing about the music industry and it's issues due to me not being involved in it in any way. As such, I have little reason to argue about it or have 'fucks to give' about it, due to my lack of involvement and knowledge in regards to it's problems.

The games industry is different. I'm involved in the games industry. I play games on a daily basis. I've studied games, gaming culture and the issues surrounding it. I'm passionate about gaming. I talk to people every chance I get about gaming and the industry. Hell, I've met a couple of small time developers and talked to them about starting up my own games company. I care about the games industry, and as such I care about the problems it suffers.
I am involved in the games industry, and as such I care about the games industry.

I am not involved in the music industry, and as such I do not care about the music industry. Best to leave discussing the issues of the music industry to people who actually are involved and care about the music industry than for me to attempt it with ham-handedness and lack of knowledge and context.

To actually answer your question in a way that will be really, really hard for people to look over -
I do care about sexual discrimination and the issues it causes in real life. Due to my involvement in the games industry, I address sexism in the games industry. Due to my lack of involvement in the music industry, I do not address sexism in the music industry thanks to a lack of knowledge of the problems at hand.

Now, we wait for the circular argument to begin...[/quote]

Quote fail

You cant say you only oppose sexism in one are of media or life then say you don't care about it in another because it doesn't affect you. That's not being against discrimination at all. That is just self serving and being selfishly worried about how something affects you. You don't need to know about the music industry to clearly see that only good looking women are marketed in a sexualised way to young teenage girls. Or that mainstream hip hop is sexist in the way it refers to women as bitches and the way they are portrayed in their music videos.

This is not a circular argument, this is what you are stating without even realising it.

 

[Jenvas1306]

And I stand by my question. Why is it an issue that some people want some games to have some more appropriate depictions of women? Why would you actively oppose this?

Because its only your opinion that its inappropriate. When in fact there is nothing inappropriate about it at all.

Its not only Milks opinion, otherwise we wouldnt have threads like this, or he would need to be really busy to make it a topic that often...
Opposing for the sake of opposing is only for debate-clubs, not for actualy discussions.

 

[Jenvas1306]

Its not only Milks opinion, otherwise we wouldnt have threads like this, or he would need to be really busy to make it a topic that often...

Nope, its still just his opinion. You agreeing with his opinion doesn't make an opinion a demonstrable fact. Same way that no matter how many people once believed the world to be flat, that was an opinion & it turned out to be objectively wrong.

People also believed that you couldnt cross over the atlantic ocean to more easily get to asia. they were right cause amaerica is in the way.
If something is socially appropriate or not is not fixed by facts that can easily be measured, it is made up of opinions. How many does it take to make it legit to you?

 

[Jenvas1306]

People also believed that you couldnt cross over the atlantic ocean to more easily get to asia. they were right cause amaerica is in the way.

Sure & until it was demonstrated, it was still an opinion. Milk has not demonstrated anything, he's just announced: I do not like, or am disinterested in A, hence fourth A is forbidden because i do not personally like it, or am disinterested in it. Oh you like A, well then you like to pleasure yourself to A & as such are a pitiable immature child in need of real sex, from a lady."

you dont think that games 'DOA: extreme beach volleyball', are getting into the realm of 'very creepy' if you look at them and know that folks actually get off to that?
Women being treated or displayed like pieces of meat, that makes me sick. And not just me, even other react more drastically to that.

I see a problem with the 'sexism and oversexualization'-topic as it seems to be too much at once and it kinda collapsed on itself. It would be smarter just to point out the worst occurances instead of trying to point at all of then, especially as it can get very difficult to define what is and what isnt.

 

[SecondPrize]

Average male salaries are higher.

There is no such thing as an average male: Individuals make as much as they can personally leverage there skills for, in any given industry, given traits such as educational standards, current scarcity of skillset, experience, etc.

An that amount of pay increasing in many industries based on continious time spent in a company or role, performance during that time, lateral job changes within a company, increased education & over time worked.

In such a discussion arithmetic averages mean less then nothing, since we are talking about individuals & not a hypothetical average person. I mean lets take two men, ones a multi-billionaire, the other lives under a bridge. One makes ten grand a day, the other scrounges for loose change... Using these two as the basis of our avergae, they both make 5 grand a day... Yet this statement is wrong for both of them.

Is it not evident that in an argument about whether salaries in the game industry are higher for one group or another that the average salaries of these groups merits discussion? How exactly do you think your hypothetical of two individuals with vastly different income compares with two groups working in the same positions within the same field?

 

[Legion]

If we are discussing real sexism, where people are discriminated against and victimised, then yes, I care about it. When a female gamer is mistreated purely because she is a female, or female developers are not taken seriously, then they are situations that are problematic and need to be dealt with.

It is why I support a lot of the attitudes prevalent in the #1ReasonWhy campaign.

If we are talking about when people consider female characters being sexual as sexism, then no, I do not. No more than I care about the excessive violence and swearing in games.

Personally I feel that anybody who feels that sexualising female characters has a negative effect on peoples attitudes towards women are hypocrites, unless they feel that the casual nature of violence in games has a negative effect on peoples attitudes towards violence in reality. Especially as casual violence is a hell of a lot more common than sexualised women.

Sexism as far as I am concerned, requires somebody to be victimised or discriminated against. Female characters being sexy does not victimise anybody, nor does it discriminate. No more than Tyrion Lannister being referred to as "Half Man" discriminates against short people and Marcus Fenix being a walking tank discriminates against physically weak men.

I am also somewhat tired of the hyperbole and exaggeration of people claiming that there are not many games without sexualised women as an argument against those that do. The amount of games with them are in the minority by a long shot, unless you are going to dismiss certain types of games as "not counting" (which is also hypocritical in some cases).

I have been gaming for over 16 years (and owned most consoles) and could count on my hands the amount of games where female characters are over-sexualised that I have owned. It really is not that difficult to avoid them.

Off the top of my head I count BloodRayne, the old Tomb Raiders and Ninja Gaiden 2. Other games such as Mass Effect have characters such as Miranda Lawson and Samara, but I don't consider two characters out of a cast of dozens as a problem, as they are by far the exception.

I am also tired of people making idiotic claims such as "This is why gaming isn't taken seriously" and "This is kind of thing shows a problem in the industry".

The former because Twilight and Scary Movie did not stop people taking books and films seriously, so the idea that a single game designed for horny teenagers has a negative impact is ridiculous. The latter because it is a sweeping generalisation over something that takes up a tiny proportion of the games industry.