Sexism; Or The Turning of Tables

[Aurora Firestorm]

Y'know, as a female in a very male-dominated industry (electrical engineering), I'll say that we've apparently come a hell of a long way. I make the same amount as my peers (read: people of my position) in my company make, male or female. Sure, there is like one of me per every...large number of men, but they don't treat me like a woman; they treat me like a person. I'm pretty sure no one thinks day-to-day about anyone's gender, including mine. But hey, I dunno, it may be different when you go to other professions.

I do think it's horse crap that people who happened to be thrown into a position of privilege because of historical reasons, somehow have a big bullseye painted on them. It's okay to make fun of Christians, but not anyone else. It's okay to make fun of whites, and no one else. It's okay to portray men as muscle-bound stupid idiots, but it's not okay to show women in the kitchen -- and on the reverse side, women are rewarded for breaking stereotypes, but men are shunned if they like to cook or something.

"But they're privileged" is a great excuse to verbally pee all over people, and I think it's absurd, but whatever.

tl;dr Men are the butt of jokes, etc. not because they're now the oppressed party, but actually because they were/are (depending on who you talk to) the privileged party. Everyone thinks it's okay to hate on those types.

Let's stop hating on each other, people. ><

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Well, I was considering doing a point-by-point response, but you've pretty much said all that I was going to. The only things I will say are, regarding the maternity leave thing, I've said already in this thread (post 41) how I think it ought work and how the current system is detrimental to everyone. I would also add that number 43 (males don't suffer domestic abuse) is flat-out wrong. I'm going to quote someone from the Women's Rights thread, as they provided several sources to disprove that myth, and credit goes to them for the research:

Here is a study from Harvard saying exactly the opposite.
http://www.patientedu.org/aspx/HealthELibrary/HealthETopic.aspx?cid=M0907d
and here is a press release with pie charts
http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/content/42/15/31.2.full
Here is a list of a few hundred studies breaking down the numbers, you can look up individual ones if you like, but the researchers broke it down and said that almost all studies showed women were at least as aggressive if not more so.
http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm
and here is a different study finding women more often the aggressors
http://ajph.aphapublications.org/cgi/reprint/97/5/941

I don't think that he was saying it didnt exist and I certainly would disagree with anyone who said so. Domestic Violence against women is more prevalent though.

 

[b3nn3tt]

Well, I was considering doing a point-by-point response, but you've pretty much said all that I was going to. The only things I will say are, regarding the maternity leave thing, I've said already in this thread (post 41) how I think it ought work and how the current system is detrimental to everyone. I would also add that number 43 (males don't suffer domestic abuse) is flat-out wrong. I'm going to quote someone from the Women's Rights thread, as they provided several sources to disprove that myth, and credit goes to them for the research:

Here is a study from Harvard saying exactly the opposite.
http://www.patientedu.org/aspx/HealthELibrary/HealthETopic.aspx?cid=M0907d
and here is a press release with pie charts
http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/content/42/15/31.2.full
Here is a list of a few hundred studies breaking down the numbers, you can look up individual ones if you like, but the researchers broke it down and said that almost all studies showed women were at least as aggressive if not more so.
http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm
and here is a different study finding women more often the aggressors
http://ajph.aphapublications.org/cgi/reprint/97/5/941

I don't think that he was saying it didnt exist and I certainly would disagree with anyone who said so. Domestic Violence against women is more prevalent though.

I refer you to the second link, with the pie charts. In non-reciprocal cases of domestic violence, men are more often the victims. But again, this is an area where people shouldn't be arguing over who has it worse, they should instead work to reduce domestic violence as a whole, regardless of the sex of the aggressor.

 

[b3nn3tt]

Well, I was considering doing a point-by-point response, but you've pretty much said all that I was going to. The only things I will say are, regarding the maternity leave thing, I've said already in this thread (post 41) how I think it ought work and how the current system is detrimental to everyone. I would also add that number 43 (males don't suffer domestic abuse) is flat-out wrong. I'm going to quote someone from the Women's Rights thread, as they provided several sources to disprove that myth, and credit goes to them for the research:

Here is a study from Harvard saying exactly the opposite.
http://www.patientedu.org/aspx/HealthELibrary/HealthETopic.aspx?cid=M0907d
and here is a press release with pie charts
http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/content/42/15/31.2.full
Here is a list of a few hundred studies breaking down the numbers, you can look up individual ones if you like, but the researchers broke it down and said that almost all studies showed women were at least as aggressive if not more so.
http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm
and here is a different study finding women more often the aggressors
http://ajph.aphapublications.org/cgi/reprint/97/5/941

Both interesting and unexpected! This rather changes my outlook on that issue.

The more you know...

It's one of those things that really isn't widely reported. But like I've just said in my above post, is an area where people shouldn't be arguing over who has it worse, they should instead work to reduce domestic violence as a whole, regardless of the sex of the aggressor.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Well, I was considering doing a point-by-point response, but you've pretty much said all that I was going to. The only things I will say are, regarding the maternity leave thing, I've said already in this thread (post 41) how I think it ought work and how the current system is detrimental to everyone. I would also add that number 43 (males don't suffer domestic abuse) is flat-out wrong. I'm going to quote someone from the Women's Rights thread, as they provided several sources to disprove that myth, and credit goes to them for the research:

Here is a study from Harvard saying exactly the opposite.
http://www.patientedu.org/aspx/HealthELibrary/HealthETopic.aspx?cid=M0907d
and here is a press release with pie charts
http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/content/42/15/31.2.full
Here is a list of a few hundred studies breaking down the numbers, you can look up individual ones if you like, but the researchers broke it down and said that almost all studies showed women were at least as aggressive if not more so.
http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm
and here is a different study finding women more often the aggressors
http://ajph.aphapublications.org/cgi/reprint/97/5/941

I don't think that he was saying it didnt exist and I certainly would disagree with anyone who said so. Domestic Violence against women is more prevalent though.

I refer you to the second link, with the pie charts. In non-reciprocal cases of domestic violence, men are more often the victims. But again, this is an area where people shouldn't be arguing over who has it worse, they should instead work to reduce domestic violence as a whole, regardless of the sex of the aggressor.

I find that very surprising, domestic abuse is wrong both ways of course I don't think anyone is disputing that. It makes me wonder how many of those women had violent parents.

 

[b3nn3tt]

I find that very surprising, domestic abuse is wrong both ways of course I don't think anyone is disputing that.

No, I doubt anyone would. But unfortunately it's one of these issues that people use to argue over who has it worse out of men and women. Hence this entrie thread and similar ones. People are always trying to one-up each other on whether men or women are more 'oppressed', and it gets us nowhere. Things are only going to change one people start viewing each other as individuals, rather than defining them based on their sex.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

I find that very surprising, domestic abuse is wrong both ways of course I don't think anyone is disputing that.

No, I doubt anyone would. But unfortunately it's one of these issues that people use to argue over who has it worse out of men and women. Hence this entrie thread and similar ones. People are always trying to one-up each other on whether men or women are more 'oppressed', and it gets us nowhere. Things are only going to change one people start viewing each other as individuals, rather than defining them based on their sex.

Domestic abuse isn't the only issue though there are plenty of other reasons why women as a whole are still discriminated against compared to men.

The OP's point was that sexism was now against men and that now they are oppressed which, I think, is massively erroneous as men clearly still have the advantage in the gender gap.

 

[Talshere]

snip

I wont do a point by point list. To much time, a lot of repetitive points with repatative answers and its already been done. I will however note some responses while also pre-texting my entire post by saying that this list is very out of date. Apparently a lot changes in 20 years.


1:Men are both more likely to apply for positions above there own and/or ask for promotions or pay increases. I studied this in Alevel phycology. Many studies were devoted this this area as it as desirable to know why men were often paid more for women for the same job. Quite simply, them men who were on more virtually universally asked for more money, or were actively job hunting at the time of the pay rise/promotion. Only women can fix this problem.

2: Cases of male domestic abuse in the UK is going through the roof. Its becoming a serious problem according to police statistic, though truly they have no idea exactly how extensive it may be. There is such a massive stigma to being an "abused husband", that virtually no-one reports it and cases that are clear cut and in several cases have even been caught on camera by police have failed to go to court as the male refuses to press charges due to this stigma.

3: My mum works in construction and has since the late 60's. She has a letter for rejection because "a construction site is no place for a woman" and has frequent stories of signs being placed up reading, "FEMALE ON SITE MIND YOUR MANNERS" and having to clear out the loo's on site for her to use as there were only male loos. Even she thinks it retarded to rename a manhole a personhole or service chamber. To hear her tell it. She rather it be called a manhole, because then she has a justifiable reason not to inspect blocked sewer systems.


4: I have actively changed my course on the street, avoided certain areas at certain times of day to avoid in-order to avoid being attacked in the street. On 2 occasions this has failed and I have been forced to defend myself. My brother ended up in hospital after being attacked by 15 kids. In both cases, we had valuables on use to the the worth of several hundreds pounds in phones's bike's etc, that were not taken. We were simply attacked for the hell of it. Some imagined slight. When was the last time someone threatened to kick the shit out of you because you knocked elbows on the street by accident? Yeah, thought not.

5:While some sexist attitudes my pervade in the older generation, this certainly does not hold true within the new generation, and those who are sexist in the older generation must hide it well or they would have been fired. By and large everyone of any education treat women with perfect equality these days. I an sick and tired of being told, I and all my male friends are sexist by 40 year old women who have more or less made there way by VOLUNTARILY starting careers as models etc. It is sexist. I will not have it. All it causes me to do is question why dont I just be sexist anyway as these people already assume I am...Then I remember I'm not a TOTAL FUCKIN MORON.

6owerful female leaders.... Margaret Thatcher can never, and will never, be thought of as week. A *****. Maybe, but for her policies not her sex. The woman is known as the Iron Maiden FFS! Her CV includes crushing the miners strikes and winning a war! As for women in politics generally. Im all the elections I have been allowed to vote in, not a single candidate standing was a woman. How is that my fault? This list infers the blame on me. It can get lost tbh.

7: It is fairly normal these days for parties to elect to keep their names on marriage. I believe someone noted that he suggested he change his name when he was looking to get engaged, and was ridiculed by all. Male and Female. So don't sponge that off on men. Its a societal problem.

8:You realise that at the inception of playboy, it was seen as the ultimate liberation of women. Just thought Id mention that. Women were all for it back when it started.

9: If boys are getting more class attention now, assuming its even true, its because they need it. The current education system is so skewed towards girls its unreal. Even a rudimentary look at the results statistics tells us that.

I think that will do for now.

As I say, out of date list is out of date. It cannot be used as a viable insight into sexual dynamics in the modern world.

 

[zelda2fanboy]

You will always be judged based off of who you are. People have prejudices, deal with it. Be it race, sex, appearance, age, intelligence, or anything, people have and will continue to judge you. A person can say something and it be accepted, then the next person can say the exact same thing a second later and not be accepted. There will always be variation. However, women have it wayhaaayy shittier than men on a vast scale. Has anyone ever referred to you as a slut? Called you a *****? A whore? A **** (less offensive and feminine centric insult in the UK, but in the US it's about the worst thing you can call a woman)? Name five equivalent male-only insults. You can get away with saying all of those words that degrade and demean half the population. Try that with slurs describing black people.

Have you ever had to pierce your body to feel comfortable about going out in public? Have you ever had to intentionally dress poorly out of fear that men might think you're coming on to them? Ever carried pepper spray? A tazer? Ever feel guilty about doing something "not lady-like?" How often do you feel obligated to smile? John Lennon wrote a great song about it back in the 70s, which I can't post here due to the title. Here are some lyrics:

We make her paint her face and dance
If she won't be a slave, we say that she don't love us
If she's real, we say she's trying to be a man
While putting her down, we pretend that she's above us

We make her bear and raise our children
And then we leave her flat for being a fat old mother hen
We tell her home is the only place she should be
Then we complain that she's too unworldly to be our friend

We insult her every day on TV
And wonder why she has no guts or confidence
When she's young we kill her will to be free
While telling her not to be so smart we put her down for being so dumb

 

[TheRightToArmBears]

Actually I disagree, and can we leave this alone for a while? We've had way too many carbon-copies of this thread recently.

And anyway, women have way more problems in society than guys do. Way more. For instance, a man and a woman, both doing the same job, for the same amount of time, will probably not get the same pay. Men tend to get more pay. Plus people seem to relate what men do to their gender a lot less than women.

But don't worry, I'm assuming you're a guy. Everyone always feel that their group is the most persecuted. I'm guessing you're a white western male, late teens/early twenties? Well we're probably the least persecuted group of people on the planet. Don't be a drama llama.

 

[b3nn3tt]

I find that very surprising, domestic abuse is wrong both ways of course I don't think anyone is disputing that.

No, I doubt anyone would. But unfortunately it's one of these issues that people use to argue over who has it worse out of men and women. Hence this entrie thread and similar ones. People are always trying to one-up each other on whether men or women are more 'oppressed', and it gets us nowhere. Things are only going to change one people start viewing each other as individuals, rather than defining them based on their sex.

Domestic abuse isn't the only issue though there are plenty of other reasons why women as a whole are still discriminated against compared to men.

The OP's point was that sexism was now against men and that now they are oppressed which, I think, is massively erroneous as men clearly still have the advantage in the gender gap.

But that's exactly the mindset that I think is actually holding back equality. I don't think it should be about who has the advantage. There are lots of areas where women are held back, there are also lots of areas where men suffer. People should be focussing on why these are bad things for people, not on what's bad for men and what's bad for women.

 

[clipse15]

Took some time to look it up and write it down properly.
In order to file a lawsuit, you need to show that you have been grieved by what you are trying to change.
The woman wanted to be a pilot but she couldn't due to the fact that the course for pilots didn't accept females at the time, there was no demand till she came along. Therefore she won.
But a man can't file a lawsuit saying that not having the time of service for men and women similar because it didn't hurt him personally, it's just not equal.
.

If that inequality affects you then I don't see any reason why you shouldn't try. If it bothers you that much that women have a privileged position in some vein of society then why not do something about it rather than just moaning about how no one does anything about it? Instead of blaming THE KILLER FEMINISTS go challenge it.

The problem is that there is a fear among journalists and others that expose themselves to the media. They fear critisizing them, their agenda. They have greated a foothold in our legal system - not women, but women belonging to groups that dehumanize men, as if they are a bank of sperm and money. These women are in positions in power that allows them some leverage when it comes to leveling the playing field , trying to prevent reforms that take away priviledges women have. They work together to better the situation of women. That's fine, but they also shoot down any claims that women have too many priviledges in certain areas.
.
When the topic of equal birth vacation comes up, the person that brings it up is usually crusified live on the TV/Radio, but when there is inequality against women the "public uproar" is immense.

Wait a minute, I was researching Maternity and Paternity leave a few weeks back. You say your from Israel? You mean where birth vacation is the exact same for both men and women? Ya I think your completely paranoid about the Feminist situation

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

I'm not being funny but this thread was about men being oppressed by women not that list, what if anything, is your view on that?

This was my argument against it and although some of it is out of date I can say that a lot of the points are more than a fair arguement against 'We get made fun of in adverts and in comedy shows'

 

[Haukur Isleifsson]

When someone states the obvious that in some ways our society discriminates against men they are not necessarily trivializing the fact that yes our society also discriminates against women. Direct comparison of the two is as impossible as it is irrelevant. We need to work on both and condemn both. Regardless of the other. Work together rather than against each other. There is no "table to turn" or "scales to tilt". It's just everyone being treated fairly and equally. Making gender a non-issue doesn't ignore sexism. It's is the very essence of equality.

The task ahead of us is an enormous one. We have to change the way people think about gender. We have to undermine and demolish the image of the different genders that have been ingrained in our collective consciousness for millennia.

In a way it is unreasonable to expect this to happen over night but we must not use that as an excuse to do nothing. We must not shy away from this task for if we do we only leave the task for our children and the coming generations.

 

[Nisselue]

I do not understand this whole men earn more than woman argument thingie so could someone enlighten me on this issue?

Are you saying a man and a woman who have the same education, the same job, the same amount of experience and working in the same building as equals. The man will earn more money in the US of A than a woman?

In Norway a woman and a man earns the exact same amount of money as long as they got the same experience, education and job.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

I find that very surprising, domestic abuse is wrong both ways of course I don't think anyone is disputing that.

No, I doubt anyone would. But unfortunately it's one of these issues that people use to argue over who has it worse out of men and women. Hence this entrie thread and similar ones. People are always trying to one-up each other on whether men or women are more 'oppressed', and it gets us nowhere. Things are only going to change one people start viewing each other as individuals, rather than defining them based on their sex.

Domestic abuse isn't the only issue though there are plenty of other reasons why women as a whole are still discriminated against compared to men.

The OP's point was that sexism was now against men and that now they are oppressed which, I think, is massively erroneous as men clearly still have the advantage in the gender gap.

But that's exactly the mindset that I think is actually holding back equality. I don't think it should be about who has the advantage. There are lots of areas where women are held back, there are also lots of areas where men suffer. People should be focussing on why these are bad things for people, not on what's bad for men and what's bad for women.

I'm sorry but when someone erroneously claims that one gender is dominating another, I am going to say something.

I agree with you that inequalities should be adressed across the board but saying that sexism goes the other way isn't really helping.

It's not really me who you should be quoting but the OP

 

[JanatUrlich]

These threads are so super.
Prepare for most people here to agree with you.

I understand your pain, I hate it when previously oppressed people get a few double standards in their favour too. What'll they want next, equal rights? Pfft...

Look, I'll tell you the same thing I told my boyfriend, if you want the male-only gyms, chubby male models and to be able to poke fun at women in ads then grand, not a bother. I'll gladly take all the other benefits you have in society that are actually important and trade.

Seriously, the fact that these are the only things you can think of it's clear that you've never actually been discriminated against in a serious manner.


EDIT: I'm not saying other men haven't been, because I know people will jump on that, I'm just saying what you pointed out is really trivial.

Amen!

OP, if you want to be trivial, what about hollywood movies? A chubby, 'nerdy' male will end up with some ridiculously 'hot' girl whereas an unattractive female while be ridiculed throughout the entire film and end up having to change herself to achieve anything.

This shit works both ways pal.

 

[b3nn3tt]

I find that very surprising, domestic abuse is wrong both ways of course I don't think anyone is disputing that.

No, I doubt anyone would. But unfortunately it's one of these issues that people use to argue over who has it worse out of men and women. Hence this entrie thread and similar ones. People are always trying to one-up each other on whether men or women are more 'oppressed', and it gets us nowhere. Things are only going to change one people start viewing each other as individuals, rather than defining them based on their sex.

Domestic abuse isn't the only issue though there are plenty of other reasons why women as a whole are still discriminated against compared to men.

The OP's point was that sexism was now against men and that now they are oppressed which, I think, is massively erroneous as men clearly still have the advantage in the gender gap.

But that's exactly the mindset that I think is actually holding back equality. I don't think it should be about who has the advantage. There are lots of areas where women are held back, there are also lots of areas where men suffer. People should be focussing on why these are bad things for people, not on what's bad for men and what's bad for women.

I'm sorry but when someone erroneously claims that one gender is dominating another, I am going to say something.

I agree with you that inequalities should be adressed across the board but saying that sexism goes the other way isn't really helping.

It's not really me who you should be quoting but the OP

I think it applies to both of you actually. It's not about sexism going one way or the other, it's about inequalities in general. You can choose any group you want, and you'll find that they earn more or less than a comparable group. Short men, on average, earn less money than taller men. It should be about fixing inequalities, not arguing about who has it worse.