SEXISM! What's with the standards?

[Something Amyss]

But it happens to everyone, not just women.

And in equal proportions, so this comment is both completely justified and totally fair.

 

[spartan231490]

While we're on this topic, why is it that any MALE claiming sexual harassment is pretty much told to man-up and quit being a fucking pussy?

Yes, because everyone besides you is some faceless group that is just unfathomably inconsistent. How about the people who tell them to man up etc are sexists and not necessarily people who really care about equality? The people that say that kind of shit about manning up and people being pussies tend to be obnoxious, overly macho, and pretty clearly sexist.

What do you mean 'everyone besides me'?

I'm talking about how you're treating all the other attitudes you find in people as if they're supposed to be consistent with each other.

It's a prevalent mentality shared by a vast majority of the male and female genders, a number of whom have already exhibited, in my presence, their distaste for gender inequality.

Contradictions about in this society, and while they no longer surprise me at all, I'm still quite entitled to be curious as to why they've yet to die out.

Prevalent? Your evidence is what, your personal experience?

Frankly, evidence for this is everywhere. How many women have you met who have said the phrase: "All men are X" How many women have you met who haven't? How many Men have you met who have said "All women are Y" How many men have you met who haven't? How many sitcoms have you watched where women slap men and people laugh? How many sitcoms have you watched where men slap women and people laugh? I mean, frankly, this shouldn't even have to be addressed, you don't need to cite sources for common knowledge, look around.

 

[Swyftstar]

I agree that the story does sound a bit extreme but anybody who has ever had to sit through a sexual harrassment seminar before getting a job knows that most of it is pretty stupid.

It might seem stupid to someone who has no personal experience with sexual harassment, but since feminism threads often end up being a big "let's trade anecdotes" convention, let me share mine.

Many years ago, long before I was born, my mother was a young, independent, relatively attractive woman who was just trying to make her way in the world and make ends meet. She worked at a bank. She was diligent, did her job well, and got along relatively well with her co-workers. There were no complaints against her all the time that she worked there.

Then one day her boss, a middle-aged man, called her into his office and had her close the door. After some prelude, he explained to her that his wife was going to be out of town and... you see where this is going. He made what were obviously sexual overtures toward her, and the implications of what he was saying were very clear. He wasn't asking her whether she was interested in him. He was telling her, this is what I want, and you're going to give it to me.

Well, she refused. She said that she wasn't comfortable with that, and she wasn't interested. Then she went back to her job. She was fired a very short time later. Apparently her job performance was less than adequate, or so she was told.

She went to some kind of local women's rights organization (I don't know exactly what the name was), and filed a complaint, and attempted to pursue the matter for a while, but was basically told at every turn that it would be her word against his and no one would believe her. It never went anywhere. She never got her job back or got any compensation, or acknowledgement, or apology. Eventually she dropped the matter and moved on with her life.

But that experience changed her. After that she was wary around men. Less trustful. Always wondering whether they wanted to take advantage of her. If she was ever called into a male superior's office again, you can bet the first thing running through her mind was "Am I safe? Is this going to be like last time? Or worse?"

You see, guys always seem to have tales of some woman who overreacted to some accidental physical contact and ruined the livelihood of a good, hard-working man. But there are countless stories of women experiencing something exactly like what my mother experienced above. Many of them never even file complaints or reports, just try to convince themselves it never happened. Why do you think women overreact to such situations? It might be because they're afraid. Because they've grown up in a culture of fear created by years of men exploiting their positions, and women being powerless to prevent it.

Why do women fear sexual harassment? Why do they constantly fear rape? Because it happens, and it happens all the time.

Why would you quote me and not use the full post? In my full post, I clearly stated that if a boss takes advantage of a subordinate then it is harrassment.

 

[spartan231490]

snip

Dude, you are on a web forum. You are not in a social sciences class. You are not at a university. Personal experience is totally valid when people are making arguments, they just aren't in any way scientific. Sure, he is applying a small sample to a massive whole, but that doesn't mean he is in some way right. Both science and personal experience are part of the same epistemology for fuck's sake (empiricism). In the end science is just a somewhat less biased form of the same argument as what the OP is using. Notice also that you're the one that's adding nothing to the discussion by simply throwing in needless skepticism (a pet peeve of mine).[/quote]
OMFG THANK YOU. I am so sick of arguments against anecdotal evidence for no other reason. Even in a scientific publication, it's ok to use anecdotal evidence so long as don't say that it's true. It's called "evidence" for a reason, no it's not as good as a good study, but it's still evidence, and any decent scientist will still take it into account when forming their conclusion. Hell, a great many scientifically accepted studies are conducted by survey, making them nothing but a compilation of anecdotal evidence.

And in general, that's where I quit. I meant to read the whole topic to participate because this is a topic I feel strongly about, but I'm beginning to get a little sick to my stomach reading all the pointless personal attacks and meaningless arguments and ect. that are proliferating on this thread.

 

[spartan231490]

But it happens to everyone, not just women.

And in equal proportions, so this comment is both completely justified and totally fair.

Honestly, I do not understand what you are saying here. Are you just agreeing with me, or are you trying to point out that I didn't need to say it in the first place, or something entirely different. Not enough context for me.

 

[dobahci]

Why would you quote me and not use the full post? In my full post, I clearly stated that if a boss takes advantage of a subordinate then it is harrassment.

Uh, well, I was mostly just using your post as a jumping off point rather than specifically responding to you.

I guess, though, because you mentioned having to sit through a sexual harassment seminar, and that most of it is pretty stupid, and ... I think a lot of people who don't have any kind of personal experience with sexual harassment tend to hear about all this kind of stuff at the workplace and feel like it's such a distant concern. So, I was just trying to illustrate a different side of things.

There's a lot more awareness about sexual harassment than there was in my mother's day, and, even though sometimes it goes overboard or gets manifested in all the wrong ways, I think the awareness in general is a great thing, it's some progress at least. For people to have started to become callous toward all of it as if it were just another tedious workplace formality is a bit sad, but inevitable.

 

[Terminal Blue]

I like your posts.

Aww.. thank you.

How many sitcoms have you watched where women slap men and people laugh? How many sitcoms have you watched where men slap women and people laugh?

Okay, think about that for a second.

Overall, in every social situation, who do you think hits men more, women or other men?
Overall, in every social situation, who do you think hits women more, men or other women?

In both cases the answer is overwhelmingly 'men'.

Men are both victims and perpetrators in the vast majority of physical assaults at practically every level.

Now, why is that? Do you think it's:

a) Because women have organized society to make men acceptable targets for violence, because they hate men and like to laugh at their suffering and drink their sweet, sweet tears.

I'll give you a clue. By all measures, women display far more fear of violence than men.

b) Because men have organized society on the principle that they are tough, independent and physically capable of defending themselves and withstanding injury, to the point where doing so is considered part of being a "real man".

I'll say what I say every time. If you want people to take violence against men seriously, you need to take violence against men seriously. You need to stop seeing men who get beaten up or are frightened of getting beaten up or who can't defend themselves, even against women, as wimps or failures. You need to disassociate masculinity from strength, independence, psychological fortitude or ability at self defence. In short, you need to acknowledge that you can be a victim of violence to the same extent that a woman can be a victim.

Because what you're asking for now is to still be seen as tough, independent and physically capable, to have it socially acknowledged that you're able to handle yourself in the face of violence simply because of what you have between your legs, but nonetheless to have every woman who slaps you thrown in prison for assault on principle. That makes no sense.

 

[Kair]

Gender equality goes both ways. Some people who tout gender equality actually advocate a gender power shift and not gender balance.

 

[Swyftstar]

Why would you quote me and not use the full post? In my full post, I clearly stated that if a boss takes advantage of a subordinate then it is harrassment.

Uh, well, I was mostly just using your post as a jumping off point rather than specifically responding to you.

I guess, though, because you mentioned having to sit through a sexual harassment seminar, and that most of it is pretty stupid, and ... I think a lot of people who don't have any kind of personal experience with sexual harassment tend to hear about all this kind of stuff at the workplace and feel like it's such a distant concern. So, I was just trying to illustrate a different side of things.

There's a lot more awareness about sexual harassment than there was in my mother's day, and, even though sometimes it goes overboard or gets manifested in all the wrong ways, I think the awareness in general is a great thing, it's some progress at least. For people to have started to become callous toward all of it as if it were just another tedious workplace formality is a bit sad, but inevitable.

The problem that occurs from them going overboard or it getting manifested in the wrong ways is that cases like your mothers (and her boss deserves a special place in hell) get lumped in with cases where a guy bumps into somebody. So a seminar that should be very important and raise awareness about what is a heinous act becomes a series of vignettes with people overreacting to getting bumped into and other silly occurences that somehow get the same classification a employer taking advantage of a employee. The people sitting through that can't help but sigh and roll their eyes. Hell the women in the meeting were doing it the most. I should also add, this was strictly a pre-employment orientation seminar, not a punishment for any of us.

 

[spartan231490]

I like your posts.

Aww.. thank you.

How many sitcoms have you watched where women slap men and people laugh? How many sitcoms have you watched where men slap women and people laugh?

Okay, think about that for a second.

Overall, in every social situation, who do you think hits men more, women or other men?
Overall, in every social situation, who do you think hits women more, men or other women?

In both cases the answer is overwhelmingly 'men'.

Men are both victims and perpetrators in the vast majority of physical assaults, from basic assault right up to homicide.

Now, why is that? Do you think it's:

a) Because women have organized society to make men acceptable targets for violence, because they hate men and like to laugh at their suffering and drink their sweet, sweet tears.

I'll give you a clue. By all measures, women display far more fear of violence than men.

b) Because men have organized society on the principle that they are tough, independent and physically capable of defending themselves and withstanding injury, to the point where doing so is considered part of being a "real man".

I'll say what I say every time. If you want people to take violence against men seriously, you need to take violence against men seriously. You need to stop seeing men who get beaten up or are frightened of getting beaten up or who can't defend themselves, even against women, as wimps or failures. You need to disassociate masculinity from strength, independence, psychological fortitude or ability at self defence. In short, you need to acknowledge that you can be a victim of violence to the same extent that a woman can be a victim.

Because what you're asking for now is to still be seen as tough, independent and physically capable, to have it socially acknowledged that you're able to handle yourself in the face of violence simply because of what you have between your legs, but nonetheless to have every woman who slaps you thrown in prison for assault on principle. That makes no sense.

What exactly is your point. I don't care where the inequality came from, and neither should you, what matters is that it's there. Do you think it changed anything that most first generation slaves were sold to whites by black tribesman? Of course it doesn't, all that matters is that the were enslaved.
and I don't recall asking to "still be seen as tough, independent and physically capable" I'm asking for violence to be seen as violence, regardless of who the perpetrator/victim is. In fact, I never even did that, all I did was point out the existence of an obvious and provable inequality. I pointed out that the gap is so massive that violence has been accepted as funny when it's perpetrated against a man, but as a nearly unforgivable crime when perpetrated against a women. Stop putting words in my mouth.

Although, since it came up, I do want to be seen as tough, independent, and physically capable, but I want women to be seen the same way. If/when I have a son and daughter, I'm not going to teach either of them that they need to run and hide if they are attacked, I will teach both of them how to be strong and independent and to protect themselves. Don't thrust your beliefs or your perceptions on me, you don't know me, and you have no idea how I feel or what I believe. I take martial arts classes, and of all the people I've ever seen spar, even at tournament, there was only one of them I would have been afraid of in a real fight. It was a girl barely over half my size who was 3 years younger than me. Don't judge me, cuz frankly, you'll be wrong.

Further, I wouldn't want a woman who physically attacked me thrown in prison unless she hurt me badly. I have no opposition to getting my ass kicked, so long as no lasting damage is done to my body. Frankly, if someone went that far, I probably deserved it, and I think that our society in general needs to stop making a huge deal out of things that aren't that important, including a little innocent fighting.

 

[thisbymaster]

Solution remove people's feeling from the law. The law should never address issues that are subjective. Hard facts and harm must be proven. If you 'feel' something that is your fault and only matters to you, so the rest of us don't care.

 

[Terminal Blue]

I don't recall asking to "still be seen as tough, independent and physically capable" I'm asking for violence to be seen as violence, regardless of who the perpetrator/victim is.

Perhaps I phrased it wrong..

It doesn't really matter what you want, you are seen as more independent, you are seen as more physically capable. You are expected to react differently to violence because of what is between your legs.

This is not some disconnected abstract point. This is precisely why violence against you would be treated less severely than it would against someone female.

I pointed out that the gap is so massive that violence has been accepted as funny when it's perpetrated against a man, but as a nearly unforgivable crime when perpetrated against a women.

And who benefits?

That's all I'm asking you to consider. Who really benefits from that state of affairs? Who benefits from its perpetuation. Whose interests does it serve to have society still work like that?

Because you are insisting that there is some terrible prejudice against men here, when (taken as a whole) practically all the violence in our society, including the violence against men which is "accepted as funny", is perpetrated by men. So why are you fixating on violence against men by women as if it should somehow be treated differently? As if it should be special?

Are men prejudiced against themselves?

I have no opposition to getting my ass kicked, so long as no lasting damage is done to my body. Frankly, if someone went that far, I probably deserved it, and I think that our society in general needs to stop making a huge deal out of things that aren't that important, including a little innocent fighting.

So it's okay to apply the same definition to everyone, men and women? It's okay to kick their arses as long as they aren't permanently hurt? They probably deserved it anyway?

You don't see any problems with that?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I would like to know your thoughts on the subject, fellow Escapists.

EDIT: Oh yes, just for the record, He didn't 'leave anything out' of his story, and I didn't 'Miss anything' because I was there. Right there, in person. When she went off her rocker and decided she was going to sue. If I hadn't been tthere, I wouldn't have bothered to say anything.

Wow. Well. Hmm.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to side with the people calling foul on this story. I don't know if it's because you're showing profound editorial bias on behalf of your friend, or if it's an outright fabrication, or if you're just not good at expressing yourself. Whatever the cause, my horseshit detectors are going off like crazy. And it's not even confirmation bias, I'm plenty willing to believe that a sexual harassment case ended up as guilty until proven innocent.

But if we're to take this hypothetical situation you've presented us with at face value, the one in which a bat-shit crazy lady with no clear motivations falsely accuses your completely innocent and upstanding friend of a mild infraction, at which point he is railroaded by a presumably corrupt institution and has his life destroyed with no opportunity for appeal or recourse, then...what do I think? I think that's pretty bad! And surprising! And bad!

 

[Arif_Sohaib]

As I was sure it would and as I believe everybody was sure it would, the thread turned into to massive war again.
To the OP, saying this on a thread will do nothing at all. Some will support you others will shout you down.
The way to fix your friend's specific sitiuation is to get all the Media attention you can. Contact anyone you know that is even remotely associated with the media(except the internet,that will not help) even the lowest selling newspaper or the least watched TV channel will have more impact than a random forum thread. If he can't get the money back in any way, at least he will know he ruined that woman's reputation.

To everyone else, fighting and generalizations will not help anyone. You can not convence anyone of your openion on the internet. So try to stop fighting (release your hot air somewhere else we have an actual person in trouble here) and if you have any advice to help this man get his money back or get over his psychological strain give your advice. I have given mine.

 

[OtherSideofSky]

Why do women fear sexual harassment? Why do they constantly fear rape? Because it happens, and it happens all the time.

http://www.genderratic.com/?p=836

This is an article you might want to read analyzing some of the best available data on rape in the US. Women are not actually significantly more at risk for these crimes than men, but unlike men they are educated about the possibility of these things happening to them and provided services to help them deal with it. I can tell you from personal experience that male victims of crimes which are erroneously perceived as being gendered are denied access to those services and told, as a matter of course, that crimes against them did not or cannot occur. Throughout more than ten years of abuse from female social workers while I was a child I was told, by my parents, by the school administration, even by therapists, to "man up", to hide my anger and pain and sadness and pretend that everything was my fault, to repeatedly make formal apologies to them because a little boy sitting on a bench and reading a book is so "threatening" to a group of grown women that it "forces" them to hold him in a four point restraint, beat him for hours and file a false police report (the police were at least professional enough to recognize the claim as patently false, but they took no steps to protect me or prevent further abuse). Male victims of domestic abuse (and all the legitimate studies from the last two decades show there are just as many of them as there are female victims) aren't given support and protection and shelters to go to, they're asked "what did you do?". They are re-victimized and denied services because our society sees any violence committed by a woman against a man as deserved (for some proof of this, look up the experiment in which a pair of actors portraying a couple stand in a public square for three hours while the woman savagely assaults the man. No one intervenes, but several passing women give shouts of encouragement and pump their fists in the air). Male victims of female rapists are told that no such crime exists and/or derided for the suggestion that a man might not want to have sex at any time and with anything that moves.

Despite all of this, men are afforded no leeway to to express fear of these very real dangers or to allow that fear to govern their actions.

 

[Rblade]

I think that if false claims would be more harshly punished it might become a bit less of a problem (and by punish I mean along the lines of having to sit through lectures and talking to victims rather then jail time, putting young woman in jail for something like that would be stupid)

How would you prove them false, though?

And, is this not going to have the effect of increasing the already large number of genuine victims that don't report it?

Like I said it's an incredibly difficult balance. As far as proof goes, basicly if the person admits that he/she lied. Maby schools could benefit from a one time awarness lesson, I don't really know.

 

[OtherSideofSky]

Although your story is a bit far fetched I do notice a tendency to side with women or give preferential treatment in the name of "equality" and "just because" or [insert BS reason here].

Just look at things like divorces, child custody, domestic violence or our schooling systems to see it in action.

Some of the things that you have mentioned there are true under certain circumstances, but domestic violence should not be there. Domestic violence at least here in Australia is perpetrated by men in at least 90% of the cases. It is a ridiculously skewed number, but it is completely true. While it may be possible that some men just don't report the incidences to the authorities, women are still the main victims here. Never should there be any sort of doubt on the topic and you should rightly remove it from future arguments

This is not true. Australia simply has some of the most biased laws for dealing with DV on Earth (although the US isn't too far behind at this point), laws that are designed on the presupposition that the men are the majority perpetrators of DV and are therefore designed to find and convict a male perpetrator as often as possible. Almost every legitimate peer-reviewed survey and psychological study in the past twenty years that bothered to look has found that women are as likely or slightly more likely than men to instigate reciprocal violence (to hit first, in other words) and that they are significantly more likely than men to commit one-sided domestic violence (i.e., hitting a partner who isn't hitting back. This is likely to men being socialized never to hit women). Many would suppose that male-perpetrated DV is a more serious issue due to differences in physical strength, but this is negated by the fact that female perpetrators are three times as likely to make use of a weapon. Studies have also found no significant difference in the motivation for domestic abuse between women and men (both primarily cite anger and the desire to control or punish a partner). The numbers you refer to are a sham perpetrated by a grievance industry comprised of professional activists who have gotten wealthy on the issue and wish to maintain their oh-so-marketable narrative.

Even if men did comprise only a fraction of DV victims, would that be reasonable grounds to exclude them from support programs and equal legal protection? Homosexual victims comprise a far smaller percentage of cases than men, but, far from denying them, we provide special services to deal with their unique issues. The bias in this case is systemic, and quite real. Just look at what happened to the founder of the UK shelter movement: Kicked out of the venture she started by the devotees of S.C.U.M. and the Red Stocking Manifesto for daring to suggest that men could be victims too. To this day, the operators of shelters which admit men have a hard time of it from their fellows (a fact which does much to explain the scarcity of shelters which admit men and the exposed and dangerous position in which that relative inaccessibility places male victims).