Sexuality in Mass Effect

[Mother Yeti]

Okay, first of all, bestiality? I'm 100% positive it doesn't include this in the game. When do you see Shepard getting in on with a Varren?

I was referring to Dragon Age, in which you can go to The Pearl, select "Surprise Me" and wake up next to a bunch of nugs. I apologize if this was unclear.

And are you serious? Weak sauce? How, because I destroyed you and your argument? You can't just go around calling people homophobic when you clearly have no understanding of the meaning, nor can you try to shoot down people's arguments because it's "weak sauce." That makes you look like a fool, espeacially when my statement quoted you.

Look, I (a gay person) do not think it is weird when two men have sex. I don't feel like this should be confusing to you. Maybe you could twist my words to that if you really were motivated to, but obviously that wasn't what I was saying. That's why I'm calling it weak sauce - you knew exactly what I meant. That that you see such a ridiculous remark as "destroying [me] and [my] argument" makes you look silly, which I'm sure you are not.

To be clear here ... you say gender, but you mean sex. Sex is biological (what's between your legs), gender is social/behavioral/cultural (what's between your ears). A transsexual is something whose gender is different from their sex. So while the asari sex is not female as we understand it, their gender (from a human standpoint) is clearly female.

Now, this is full proof you are just making shit up as you go along. To be trans-gender is to undergo full or partial reversal of gender. The Asari have one gender, but since they resemble human females you get all bitchy. Fine, how about someone makes a mod so they all look like men and sound like robots. Would that make you happy?

I'm not going to have this discussion with you if you refuse to educate yourself. "Gender," "sex," and "transgender," have specific meanings from a sociological perspective, and you can't simply redefine them as you see fit. You are intelligent enough to use Wikipedia - if you want to have a conversation about this, I request that you do so.

And finally, if you are incapable of having a discussion without hostility (for example, calling me "bitchy"), I am simply not going to respond to you. I know you're young and passionate, but please. I am not being hostile to you, so I request the same courtesy.

 

[RyVal]

Snip

On the other hand, it most definitely doesn't hurt sales to not include gay males at all,

I would point out the fact that homosexuals would be more inclined to purchase a product which catered to them, so it does hurt sales in that regard. Furthermore, it probably would not hurt sales to simply have a cast composed entirely of white men; that does not mean it is advisable or representative of the mature themes supposedly addressed in the game. The point is, Mass Effect is supposed to be a mature drama, not a soap opera. Allowing their own creative integrity to compromised purely for the sake of profits is rather amoral. There are plenty of examples in fiction where a writer/director could probably make more money by removing all references to homosexuality, yet they still exist.

and Bioware saw no reason to go out of their way to make Shepard magically homo/bisexual in the sequel to Mass Effect. That's probably the most reasonable argument, come to think of it.

Again, this "He wasn't gay in the original so he can't be now!" is a ridicilous argument. Mass Effect is an RPG, for Christ's sake. You could have been playing your male Shepherd as an utter psychopath in the original before turning him into a paragon of Godliness in the sequel. The whole point of this sort of game is that your actions are not confined by "canon" - something which puts them a foot above JRPGs. Furthermore, how do you know someone did not play a male Shepherd in the original who refused to have any romantic relations with females?

 

[GuerrillaClock]

I don't really get what all the fuss is about. If you want your Shepard to be gay then say he's gay. You don't need a couple dialogue trees and a "Sex" scene to tell you what your character is. Its called role playing.

Completely and utterly this. He can be what ever you like. I can pretend my Shep has Dyslexia and an addiction to Apple Crumble. I'm not complaining that there is no apple crumble in the game to eat.

(Though maybe I should)

[ /tortured analogy ]

Common sense? In a controversial flamewar thread? From two people? What am I seeing? *begins dribbling*

In all seriousness, though, I just had another thought. Is it possible there just wasn't room for a gay character? I mean, let's look at the options for a male Shepard to be gay. Garrus, Jacob and Thane are all openly hetero, so that's out. Then you're left with, what? Grunt? Don't Krogan have two penises or something? I'm not sure if that kind of thing is 'done' in the ME universe. I suppose there's Zaeed, but he's DLC, meaning not everyone will have him, and you can't have any real dialogue trees with him anyway outside his loyalty mission. With 12 possible squad members in the game anyway, and all the existing ones with pretty solid, set personalities, putting a gay character in somewhere would just not fit. And since there's no lesbian option (no, there really isn't, I'm damned if Kelly and asari count), is it possible that, if you want to play Shepard as gay, he just wasn't lucky enough to be put in command of a homosexual crew?

Yeah, I know the debate has moved on to the representation of gays in the mass media, but I feel many designers will have similar problems. In giving adequate options to the hetero gamer (which needs to happen, since, like it or not, the heteros are the majority) for romance, they must spend less time on developing the potential homosexual interests. Of course, the alternative is to not flesh anyone out and reduce all the homosexuals to Fable's "ooh hello sailor" stereotype, which I'm sure is just as irritating.

So, basically, what it boils down to is that gays are not represented because it's too much trouble, the same reason relationships of any kind are not really represented in games, as I outlined in an earlier post. I'm not saying it's right, but it doesn't really matter when the big picture is taken into account, and in the case of ME2, at least, I believe inserting gay characters was just unfeasible.

 

[Mother Yeti]

In all seriousness, though, I just had another thought. Is it possible there just wasn't room for a gay character? I mean, let's look at the options for a male Shepard to be gay. Garrus, Jacob and Thane are all openly hetero, so that's out. Then you're left with, what? Grunt? Don't Krogan have two penises or something? I'm not sure if that kind of thing is 'done' in the ME universe. I suppose there's Zaeed, but he's DLC, meaning not everyone will have him, and you can't have any real dialogue trees with him anyway outside his loyalty mission. With 12 possible squad members in the game anyway, and all the existing ones with pretty solid, set personalities, putting a gay character in somewhere would just not fit. And since there's no lesbian option (no, there really isn't, I'm damned if Kelly and asari count), is it possible that, if you want to play Shepard as gay, he just wasn't lucky enough to be put in command of a homosexual crew?

To get back to a point I made back way on page one, why couldn't Thane, Jacob, or Garrus be a same-sex option? "Because they're obviously hetero" isn't a good answer.

 

[Lucifron]

Snip.

Your actions are, and should... you know what, nevermind. It's not that big a deal.

 

[GuerrillaClock]

snappy snip

Because, as I said, there needed to be adequate options for the heterosexual gamer. There needs to be at least straight three romance options for each gender to cater for its core audience. I'm sure Bioware considered very seriously the possibility of working one of them to possibly be gay as well, but this would require some very, very flexible characterisation and as I said later in the post, time is money for a big game such as this one. It just couldn't have been done in time for release without detracting from the experience to those who had no interest in pursuing a gay relationship in the game, which, as I mentioned, is the majority of players. It all comes down to money again.

I also said later in this post that this wasn't necessarily the right attitude, but a coldly practical one. Without considerably limiting the experience for many, I can't see how they could feasibly insert an adequately characterised gay character for both sexes into the game.

 

[DancePuppets]

To get back to a point I made back way on page one, why couldn't Thane, Jacob, or Garrus be a same-sex option? "Because they're obviously hetero" isn't a good answer.

As I pointed out in an earlier post, I think it is more than likely just that they didn't feel that making them gay would have added anything to the story and if, as I believe, it was purely for artistic reasons then I don't think it is all that fair to have a go at them.

 

[Mother Yeti]

snappy snip

Because, as I said, there needed to be adequate options for the heterosexual gamer. There needs to be at least straight three romance options for each gender to cater for its core audience. I'm sure Bioware considered very seriously the possibility of working one of them to possibly be gay as well, but this would require some very, very flexible characterisation and as I said later in the post, time is money for a big game such as this one. It just couldn't have been done in time for release without detracting from the experience to those who had no interest in pursuing a gay relationship in the game, which, as I mentioned, is the majority of players. It all comes down to money again.

Why must same-sex options require flexible characterization? Are you suggesting that a bisexual Jacob would have a different personality than a straight Jacob?

I also question your assertion that there must be at least three straight romance options per character. Getting back to Dragon Age yet again, that game featured two straight and one gay romance option for each gender, not to mention the various minor encounters possible throughout the game (for example, in the Human Noble opener there are two bisexual characters who can be briefly romanced).

By the way, I love your avatar.

 

[Mother Yeti]

To get back to a point I made back way on page one, why couldn't Thane, Jacob, or Garrus be a same-sex option? "Because they're obviously hetero" isn't a good answer.

As I pointed out in an earlier post, I think it is more than likely just that they didn't feel that making them gay would have added anything to the story and if, as I believe, it was purely for artistic reasons then I don't think it is all that fair to have a go at them.

That's not answering the question. Why are lesbian options allows but gay options aren't? How would making Jacob or Thane or Garrus a male romance option added any less to the story than making Kelly a female romance option? "Because they didn't feel like it" is such a vague answer as to be useless to our discussion.

 

[Mother Yeti]

I stick by my statement I made on the last page. Bioware was going for more of a Mass appeal with the game and sticking to a tried and true sci-fi motif. It isn't that they didn't want a mansex option in the game. It just doesn't meld well with the story and the character that is Shepard. A female Shepard having some lesbian action is way more appealing to the average sci-fi fan and fits better with the overall universe. I think ME2 is a fantastic game. Male Shepard wouldn't have the same gravitas had he made sweet manlove throughout the game. FemShep is far more believable just because of the setting alone.

So you're saying that allowing a gay Shepard would somehow make the character less respectable?

 

[Fappy]

To get back to a point I made back way on page one, why couldn't Thane, Jacob, or Garrus be a same-sex option? "Because they're obviously hetero" isn't a good answer.

As I pointed out in an earlier post, I think it is more than likely just that they didn't feel that making them gay would have added anything to the story and if, as I believe, it was purely for artistic reasons then I don't think it is all that fair to have a go at them.

That's not answering the question. Why are lesbian options allows but gay options aren't? How would making Jacob or Thane or Garrus a male romance option added any less to the story than making Kelly a female romance option? "Because they didn't feel like it" is such a vague answer as to be useless to our discussion.

Well personality wise none of the three characters really come off as gay/bi at all imo. (Thane could if you tweaked his personality a bit). I would have been completely flabbergasted if it turned out Garrus was gay.

 

[RyVal]

I stick by my statement I made on the last page. Bioware was going for more of a Mass appeal with the game and sticking to a tried and true sci-fi motif. It isn't that they didn't want a mansex option in the game. It just doesn't meld well with the story and the character that is Shepard. A female Shepard having some lesbian action is way more appealing to the average sci-fi fan and fits better with the overall universe. I think ME2 is a fantastic game. Male Shepard wouldn't have the same gravitas had he made sweet manlove throughout the game. FemShep is far more believable just because of the setting alone.

So it would be unrealistic to have gays in space, but not lesbians...?

Well personality wise none of the three characters really come off as gay/bi at all imo. (Thane could if you tweaked his personality a bit). I would have been completely flabbergasted if it turned out Garrus was gay.

What would you define as a "gay personality"?

 

[DancePuppets]

That's not answering the question. Why are lesbian options allows but gay options aren't? How would making Jacob or Thane or Garrus a male romance option added any less to the story than making Kelly a female romance option? "Because they didn't feel like it" is such a nonspecific answer as to be useless to our discussion.

OK then I'll change it, I don't see how it would have had a major effect on the story they are trying to tell in any way shape or form. In much the same way that I interact with my gay, straight or bisexual friends independent of their sexuality. All I was attempting to do was to turn this away from the flame war that it has become by pointing out that Bioware have already proven that they have nothing against the lesbian or gay community and, as it is their IP, can use it to tell a story in the manner that they see fit. If for one reason or another they felt that including a gay male member of the crew would add little or nothing to said story then I really don't see how you can have a go at them for it. Making any of the male members of the crew gay would have required further dialogue trees that Bioware obviously viewed as unnecessary and added nothing to the plot, therefore they chose not to include it. I really cannot for the life of me understand why you've taken such a hardline stance on something that is, in this case, very minor.

 

[Fappy]

I stick by my statement I made on the last page. Bioware was going for more of a Mass appeal with the game and sticking to a tried and true sci-fi motif. It isn't that they didn't want a mansex option in the game. It just doesn't meld well with the story and the character that is Shepard. A female Shepard having some lesbian action is way more appealing to the average sci-fi fan and fits better with the overall universe. I think ME2 is a fantastic game. Male Shepard wouldn't have the same gravitas had he made sweet manlove throughout the game. FemShep is far more believable just because of the setting alone.

So it would be unrealistic to have gays in space, but not lesbians...?

Well personality wise none of the three characters really come off as gay/bi at all imo. (Thane could if you tweaked his personality a bit). I would have been completely flabbergasted if it turned out Garrus was gay.

What would you define as a "gay personality"?

It's not that there is any one thing that gives some one a "gay personality". When getting to know said characters I never got the impression that their sexual orientation was gay... but I can't really speak for aliens because they have a different culture (although they are portrayed as enough like humans to make the assumption).

 

[Optimystic]

I never said it would be unrealistic. Going through the history of sci-fi you will find that lesbianism is far more appealing and widespread than male gayness. Sci-Fi has never been a big setting for gay man encounters is all. Like I said before. It fits way better in a game like Dragon Age. It's wholly more believable in that setting. It may be just because sci-fi has never really delved into that sort of thing on the manside of things. Sci-fi is generally more about visuals, story, and heroics.

There was once a time when having women in the workplace, or a black general, would have been just as unrealistic as a gay starship captain in the media. Yes, even in space.

The only way to change what is "believable" is... by changing it.

The explanation I have had heard thus far is - Male Shep is an established personality - therefore, he is not gay no matter how many other facets of his being I can determine myself. Very well, Bioware, if that is your stance, then I will be glad to kill Shepard off and start with a new space marine in ME3 - hopefully one that I DO have full control over.

 

[Mother Yeti]

All I was attempting to do was to turn this away from the flame war that it has become

A couple overtly hostile posters does not a flame war make. I think in general the discussion in this thread has been pretty civil.

as it is their IP, can use it to tell a story in the manner that they see fit.

No one's saying that Bioware can't tell whatever story they want. We just think it's odd that a female character can have any sexual preference the player desires, whereas male sexuality is rigidly confined to "should I bang a human chick or an alien chick who looks like a human chick." There is an imbalance. I don't see how raising this issue is unfair.

If for one reason or another they felt that including a gay male member of the crew would add little or nothing to said story then I really don't see how you can have a go at them for it.

You still haven't addressed my question of how lesbian options add something to the game, but gay options don't.

Making any of the male members of the crew gay would have required further dialogue trees that Bioware obviously viewed as unnecessary and added nothing to the plot, therefore they chose not to include it.

This is Bioware, a company that measures the dialogue in their games in terms of novels. I can't imagine that "unnecessary dialogue trees" would be a serious issue to them.

I really cannot for the life of me understand why you've taken such a hardline stance on something that is, in this case, very minor.

Maybe it's very minor to you. I am of a different opinion.

And, anyway, this is a gaming forum, where freaking out over ridiculously tiny details is the norm.