Show me more proof. (Boston bombings)

[Belaam]

1) Two disturbed idiots fed on each other's paranoia, fear, and belief that if their lives were not as awesome as they thought they should be, it was because the society in which they lived was out to get them, and so they attacked that society. When discovered, they panicked and ran off shooting/throwing more home made explosives.

or

2) There is a vast conspiracy involving countless manipulated videos, photos, eyewitness reports, and the cooperation of two patsies with small home made bombs (but I guess not the large ones at the marathon) and guns who were willing to die for the cause when the manhunt for them began. Said chosen patsies being carefully selected to turn Americans against amateur boxers, Chechnyan immigrants, bros, and Muslims whose church leaders had denounced them as nuts, presumably because the President (or whoever would be in charge of such a conspiracy) wanted those groups to be even more hated than they already are.

Occam's Razor, anyone?

 

[jetriot]

The survivor is an American citizen and will get a trial. A lot more information will come out then. Right now it looks like he ate up his brother's extremist Muslim bullshit and decided to Jihad the Great Satan. This isn't 9-11. People have a much different perspective and reaction to this terrorist nonsense than we did a decade ago. You won't see international intervention but you may see much tougher restriction on student and work visas for people from Muslim countries than we currently have. I am not so sure that is a bad thing.

 

[MagunBFP]

Hang on, are you the Judge trying this case? Do you have or should you have access to any/all the evidence that the FBI has actually collected through out their investigation? No? Then why do you expect the media to provide anything more then "Court of Public Opinion" level of evidence. You need to remember that the media is only covering it because it drives the ratings up, and they're hardly going to get viewers by saying that these guys seem to be the guilty but they're not sure and the FBI isn't telling them anything to prove.

Then there's the Government, they doesn't actually have to make its evidence available to you. That you have seen whats been offered by the media and haven't jumped of the "OMG Terrorists must die" bandwagon is great, but expecting to have the the case definitively proven to everyone thats just a touch naive, especially when you consider just how many cases are taking place in the US at any one point in time. You might say you only want to major ones proven to you personally whats major to you might not be to someone else or vice versa.

 

[KeyMaster45]

Secondly when they were accosted didn't they shoot a policeman and drive off in a car lobbing bombs out the window?
I'd say those were the droids you were looking for.

That second part was pretty surreal wasn't it? When I heard the description of it I thought for a minute the news had gotten hold of part of the GTA 5 script. Still, I bet he got an achievement for having a six star wanted level that long before getting caught.

 

[Smiley Face]

This is just hilarious. The government has no obligation to be providing as much information as it is, the only reason it's doing so is to assuage the public's nerves, and to look all nice and competent to make the politicians happy. The investigation, the accumulation and analysis of evidence, is ongoing. The media's blabbering on and on about the craziest shit, because they HAVE nothing new to say, so just repeat the same stuff and occasionally make wild guesses and conjectures. This isn't how justice works. The police don't snap their fingers and know everything. They investigate, gather evidence, follow procedure, make their arrest, and then take it to trial.

TRIAL. You know, the part where THE EVIDENCE is shown? And GUILT DETERMINED, BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT? I can understand where all this confusion's coming from, with the media being so disorganized, and getting ahead of themselves with talking about guilt and punishment that people are forgetting that the trial, when all this stuff is SUPPOSED to happen, hasn't happened yet. That's where the arguments and evidence will be arranged, clearly, obviously, to demonstrate guilt, and that's what we should look at to see if it holds up, not the farce of the media tripping over each other to show up with breaking news. What's truly impressive is that the evidence that's there is so overwhelming that it really is a foregone conclusion as to the question of guilt, and that it's all been so widely publicized.

I'm all well and for people being critical and analytical but Jesus Christ people, not every nutjob blowing up something is the bloody Da Vinci Code.

No, but the United States government and it's federal agencies have zero credibility at this point. Don't see how that's a radical view. Basically, pics or it didn't happen.

And to the conspiracy theorists here, you're ridiculous. I understand skepticism towards the media and the government, but if you refuse to believe their statements about this level of evidence, then how are you going to believe any evidence, no matter how seemingly solid? - after all, they already lied about that other evidence, they just did a better job this time! The only way you'll know for sure is by marching down to Boston and demanding to look at the evidence yourself. And while you're out, hey, what else is the media lying about? Turns out the Soviet Union's back, and they're handing out free cupcakes, but the media is keeping a lid on it so they don't have to share them! I want that sugary Marxist goodness, dammit!

 

[Dryk]

And to the conspiracy theorists here, you're ridiculous. I understand skepticism towards the media and the government, but if you refuse to believe their statements about this level of evidence, then how are you going to believe any evidence, no matter how seemingly solid? - after all, they already lied about that other evidence, they just did a better job this time! The only way you'll know for sure is by marching down to Boston and demanding to look at the evidence yourself. And while you're out, hey, what else is the media lying about? Turns out the Soviet Union's back, and they're handing out free cupcakes, but the media is keeping a lid on it so they don't have to share them! I want that sugary Marxist goodness, dammit!

It's ultimately a pointless train of thought anyway. You would have to go and gather all the evidence yourself, and even then you can't be sure it hasn't been altered or tampered with. Hell even if you do inspect everything yourself our senses aren't particularly reliable.

 

[Drizzitdude]

Honestly I wasn't too sure myself if it was these guys involved until I heard about them throwing bombs out the window during the chase. I saw A LOT of pictures showing those mercs and fbi guys with similar backpacks to the ones the blew up at the marathon but of course any picture can be messed with, people can try to make you focus on whatever they want you to if they block off other parts of an image or throw a captioned box somewhere.

 

[Lionsfan]

The carjacking victim is an unidentified Chinese national who speaks little English. An interpreter was not used to get his initial statements.

lol. Just lol.

This "unidentified Chinese National" is only unidentified because he asked to remain anonymous. Second, he graduated from Northeastern, and now holds a job in the area, so something tells me he can speak English just fine. Also, he gave a 2.5 hour interview with The Boston Globe talking about his experiences, without an interpreter present either, so again, his English is just fine.


Another thought, that interview really blows a hole in your "there's no journalism anymore! only quotes from press conferences" theory you've got going on.

But I think I'll just quote you:

Ah what the hell, it's pointless.

 

[JoJo]

We have a confession, that's what.

I laughed too hard at this. I thought it was widely known there was a confession. What more do you need?

To be fair, confessions have been coerced or given out by (innocent) compulsive liars in the past, but yeah, in this case all the evidence is pretty overwhelmingly in favour of the two Chechen brothers being guilty. I kinda feel sorry for the OP because her argument has been utterly trashed by now.

 

[saoirse13]

The public don't need the evidence, the judge does... and in the case of home grown terrorism it is usually classified information not releasable to the public anyway... This is the type of thing where you just have to trust the professionals to do their jobs!

Your kidding right. Trust the professionals who ultimately have a track record of lying to the public, to hide their own agenda. And trust the judge, well thats even if it goes to court, which I'd say there will be a seriously slim chance of. You could nearly place bets that this lads untimely death will surprisingly happen just before any court case can take place. You look at the history of America when it comes to things like this and 9 times out of 10 there is no suspect either thei die of 'natural causes, suicide or some lone ' vigilantly gets to them before anything can go public.
Nope it will all be swept under the rug from the publics eyes and ears then in 10 years it will be used as part of some excuse for another war

 

[saoirse13]

We have a confession, that's what.

I laughed too hard at this. I thought it was widely known there was a confession. What more do you need?

To be fair, confessions have been coerced or given out by (innocent) compulsive liars in the past, but yeah, in this case all the evidence is pretty overwhelmingly in favour of the two Chechen brothers being guilty. I kinda feel sorry for the OP because her argument has been utterly trashed by now.

My argument has gone out the window and into an unmarked grave. Though to be fair I have quite enjoyed the ride.

 

[Something Amyss]

We have a confession, that's what.

And we have only THE MEDIA and THE GUMMITS word on that! False flag conspiracy scandal media coverup!!!!!

The FBI isn't at liberty to tell faux news about it's goings on.

Would they take the information anyway?

Regardless, besides actually being on-scene, of course you're only going to have the word of the media and government officials. I'm curious as to what else you would have.

You look at the history of America when it comes to things like this and 9 times out of 10 there is no suspect either thei die of 'natural causes, suicide or some lone ' vigilantly gets to them before anything can go public.

[citation needed]

 

[DocMcCray]

Sadly this world has come to a "My opinion matters, so cater to me!" type of mentality.

OP: No one has to convince you of anything, unless you are on the jury that tries these two.

It doesn't matter if you don't believe there is enough evidence.

It doesn't matter if you think they are guilty or not guilty.

In this case, your opinion doesn't mean s***.

The only thing that matters is what their jury will think. Nothing more.

 

[idarkphoenixi]

Not really sure what more "proof" you need: Cameras show them entering with backpacks and leaving without them, with testimony that they placed it at the source of the blast. They stockpiled weapons and explosives, using them on the police. There's that whole confession thing too.

If you're looking for absolute, definitive, without-a-doubt, we-got-em, wholesale indisputable proof (such as video footage of them crafting the bombs or audio of them making the plans)
Well, you'll be looking for a while because that's not going to exist.

To be sceptical of the government and to say they don't always tell the truth is perfectly reasonable. But at the same time that doesn't make them compulsive liars who must cover up everything that ever happens in order to further some secretive "agenda", now that's dangerous territory.

If they are innocent then what other choice does that leave? That the government is using them as a scapegoat because...they did it? False flags might be a real thing but here, there is absolutely no reason. There is nothing here where the risk of being caught outweighs the benefits.
It's not even like they can be called Iranian spies and used as a rallying point for yet another invasion. They're American citizens who immigrated from Chechnya and I doubt America has the balls to try a war with Russia.

 

[Angie7F]

I do want to see more evidence.
Right now it just al seems so surreal

 

[Erttheking]

Best case scenerio : they did it .

Worst case scenerio : they are scapegoats .

End result : americans are reassured , and they prejudice views of muslams are reinforced .

Conclusion :. Whether they did it or not , it doesn't matter . The end result is the same.

.....What? I'm sorry what? American's and their prejudiced views of Muslims? What?...You do know that just about everyone I know has been saying that the second suspect was a stupid kid who didn't understand what he was doing. Don't make assumptions like that man, seriously.

 

[Virgilthepagan]

Please, please don't go down this route. Which is easier to believe? That two men with few friends went down to their local hardware store and bought a pressure cooker, an egg timer, and a bag of nails and BBs, or that a vast chunk of our federal government plotted this to do...something?


Just read this article. There really isn't a leg to stand on here.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2013/04/15/why_the_conspiracy_theorists_will_have_a_tough_time_with_boston.html

 

[Kyrian007]

The one thing I get tired of in conversations like this is the constant media bashing. I'm only a local reporter in a mid-market, but it gets to me after a while. So let's clear away (well, just one part for now) the rampant bullshit.

"Just the mouthpieces of the government."

Blame us... for that. Who else should we talk to? Using the bombing for an example... witnesses? Yeah, done, bigtime done. Hell, I interviewed a guy who was across the street from bomb one and I'm in a city hundreds of miles away from Boston, working for a local media outlet. Suspects; can't, one's dead the other has a bullet through his throat and is in police custody. Experts? I'll agree that's pretty pointless, but the networks have that covered. So who's left?

The fucking government police agencies... that's who. Want me to write a bombing story without sourcing government agencies... fine it looks something like this.

A bunch of people saw a bomb go off. It killed some folks and blew arms and legs off of others. Someone saw the police shoot someone and arrest someone else a couple of days later. The end.

Not exactly informative is it? Kind of leaves you wanting to know more huh?

That's because the bitchers, whiners, and complainers are so fucking uneducated that they don't understand the concept of sourcing. We (the media) aren't telling you what we think about the situation. We're telling you what we've learned. Don't trust the government... FUCKING FINE, then don't. Trust me, we don't care if you trust the government or not. We're not telling you to trust them, we are just telling you what they are telling us. Make up your own mind. Quotes from the "gubment agencies" are just that... what they've told us. Stop asking us to tell you what to think, and think for yourselves. Want to know why Fox news is so crappy and biased... BECAUSE YOU WANT THEM TO BE. Right-wingers would rather be told what they want to hear from a sympathetic source. Fucking left-wingers want the same damn thing and get their news from left leaning fishwraps and MSNBC. All so they can just easily agree and say "yup" and go about their lives having all the conclusions drawn for them eliminating their need to THINK CRITICALLY so they can use their remaining brainpower watching the x factor or dancing with the stars.

Fucking public. Demanding to know everything then pissing and moaning about "the media" just because we have the shear fucking audacity to try and compile data and reports and keep the public informed. What a bunch of entitled, whiny, bitches. And yes, I used "entitled" because it rings here on the escapist as one of the most hated of accusations and I want to make sure I'm putting proper emphasis behind my anger.

Getting away from the anger. Yes there are bad media outlets, bad reporters, and they set a horrible example. And there are the mistakes. We do our best, but we are only human. You've never fucked up once at your job? Fucking perfect in all aspects of it? If you are well good for you. Most can't claim workplace perfection.

Sorry for the rant, but that's been building up for a while. I see it all over comment pages and other message boards and I just ignore it. But then I come to the escapist to talk about the hobby I use to wind down after a day of thankless hard work, and see media bashing here. Here, where even when I argue with another escapist about something I feel like we all have something in common and can walk away from any disagreement with respect for one another. I just really feel for the reporters who are on the ground for this sort of thing and subject to all of the public's distain. The same public they are trying to help understand the situation. I get mad about it, and the most important things I report on are arguments at a city council meeting, or a local semi-pro sports team, or the latest drive-by or house fire. I can only imagine how pissed they must be.

Gonna go play some Dishonored and cool down. Have a nice day fellow escapists.