Show me more proof. (Boston bombings)

[Something Amyss]

When you were 7, I was reading the paper 2 days after 9/11 telling us that yes, we found hijackers' passports laying neatly on top of the pile of atomized rubble, somehow surviving the destruction.

Unfortunately, the truth is a little less black and white, not to mention less absurd. There's evidence of personal effects being recovered from plane crashes, fires and explosions. Even things like identification. It wasn't as neat as you would frame it, though I'm sure the people you are parroting did phrase it that way so as to ridicule the very uncontroversial discovery of personal identification and/or effects.

You can call me paranoid all day long, it does not change the fact that the US government has and will continue to lie to you

It also doesn't change the fact that you're making up new lies, no matter how honest your intentions may be.

totally unequipped to deal with reality when bad shit happens

Isn't that why people cook up conspiracy theories in the first place? Because they can't handle the fact that bad shit happens?

 

[Something Amyss]

I would never say it's impossible for false flags to happen, it's possible just highly unlikely.

It also generally requires too many people for it not to get out. And I don't mean tinfoil hats claiming that there's some backmasked message in some interview with a conspirator, but I mean, actual people.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

As an American I do resent that.

As an American, I accept it. I mean, let's face it. A couple of brown people (who we conflate with Muslims, as a whole) were posted in the NY Post, and not even the FBI saying they aren't the guys can stop us from tirading against the Muslim (by which they mean Arab) world and we had Muslims getting assaulted in Boston. The brown kind. Even pictures of two white dudes didn't stop the hate or outrage, and THEN we found out they were Muslim, and....

I feel shame that we are portrayed this way, but not because it is incorrect. America has, as a whole, been decidedly prejudiced with regards to the Muslim/Arab communities across the nation and worldwide.

What krazykidd said does not implicate any given American. While you might not be part of the problem, consider then that you may also not be representative of America or Americans as a whole.

We're a nation where like fifteen percent admitted they wouldn't vote for a black person.

We're a nation where four years after the election, 17% of voters thought Obama was a Muslim. Higher if you don't go with Pew.

More to the point, we're a nation that jumped to the conclusion that the Boston Marathon bombing was an act of religious terror with no actual evidence.

And you don't think there are equal amounts of people who use gut reaction over logic in other countries? It isn't America as a whole, and saying it in a general sense is an insult to those who are not. I am sure the type you describe are not a majority, and your statistics show that between 15 and 20% of the country is just stupid (I gave you 3 points for error-room). I hear more in person about people feeling sorry for families involved and very very little about terrorism or "those damn muslims" and I don't necessarily live in an "enlightened" part of the country. I do talk to a lot of people or overhear conversations in my area, but that doesn't represent the whole, still I hear little to nothing in the way of anti-Muslim hate speech you seem to attribute to a "majority", nor do I hear a lot of racist statements, though its not non-existent.
My point is that krazykidd went a bit far by saying "americans" and not "some americans" in their post. It bothers me and insults me because I get tired of hearing blanket statements like that.

 

[Something Amyss]

You do know that just about everyone I know has been saying that the second suspect was a stupid kid who didn't understand what he was doing. Don't make assumptions like that man, seriously.

I wasn't aware you were representative of America as a whole. I'm surprised polling companies bother with extensive samples and the tedium (not to mention cost) of trying to get such representation. Have you considered volunteering your services to ease the burden?

But seriously, this isn't the best case for "America doesn't have a problem with Muslims." It's a good case for "the people I know don't have a problem with Muslims," thought.

 

[xDarc]

Isn't that why people cook up conspiracy theories in the first place? Because they can't handle the fact that bad shit happens?

It's the opposite. Because I want to know WHY the bad shit happens. My 60 year old neighbor came over to my house on 9/11 all freaked out because she thought the Russians were attacking... I was like no, it's probably just al Qaeda, they've only been threating to attack us for about the past decade. The people who bombed the embassies in Kenya and Tanzania? Just got a blank stare, this was a person who had been asleep their entire life.

But then bin Laden says I didn't do it, and passports float gently down to the street when they had a hard time finding human remains for fuck's sake. Give me a fucking break. Then we're gonna go after Iraq, and I was like why? Saddam does not harbor terrorists. He gives money to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers, but bin Laden had already asked for refuge in Iraq back in 98' and Saddam refused. Again, when I told people this, more blank stares. People back then were like, bin Laden is brown, Iraqis are brown- what's the difference?

Just unfucking believable.

It's been nothing but lies and misinformation since I was young and it is astounding that anyone today believes a single word of it, ever. To believe them is to take the easy way out so people can go back to sleep.

 

[Something Amyss]

And you don't think there are equal amounts of people who use gut reaction over logic in other countries?

So are you changing your argument from "America's not like that" to "other people do it too?"

Because it might be true that other people do it, but that doesn't negate the affirmative you seem to now be admitting.

It isn't America as a whole, and saying it in a general sense is an insult to those who are not.

I'm not insulted, and by your logic if I'm not insulted than you're wrong to call it an insult to those who are not.

I hear more in person about people feeling sorry for families involved and very very little about terrorism or "those damn muslims" and I don't necessarily live in an "enlightened" part of the country.

Yes, personal anecdotes definitely beat overall reactions. On that note, since almost 100% of the people I know support same sex marriage, I'm just going to state that an overwhelming majority of Americans do.

What's that, imaginary headset? That doesn't reflect America as a whole?

My point is that krazykidd went a bit far by saying "americans" and not "some americans" in their post.

I'd personally note that he said "Americans" and not "all Americans," but then, I'm not the one looking to deny a national problem.

 

[lizards]

Your mistake was using the media as a source of reliable information.

The FBI isn't at liberty to tell faux news about it's goings on.

very good point, and throw on that im sick of so many people who think that the government is the cause of everyones grief every single time

 

[Something Amyss]

It's the opposite. Because I want to know WHY the bad shit happens.

If you merely wanted to know why, you wouldn't have to go to truther sites that think steel is impervious to fire and other hogwash.

But then bin Laden says I didn't do it, and passports float gently down to the street when they had a hard time finding human remains for fuck's sake.

Again, you post a ridiculous version of events and then attack it. Isn't that pretty much a strawman attack?

Then we're gonna go after Iraq, and I was like why? Saddam does not harbor terrorists.

It's almost insulting that you post this, because it's an actual lie mixed in with the fake lies you're claiming are made.

The difference here? Evidence. We have evidence that the Saddam line was bull. We don't for 9-11.

People back then were like, bin Laden is brown, Iraqis are brown- what's the difference?

An ill-informed nation doesn't validate your claims.

It's been nothing but lies and misinformation since I was young and it is astounding that anyone today believes a single word of it, ever. To believe them is to take the easy way out so people can go back to sleep.

Or, you know, when presented with evidence....

 

[Thanatos5150]

Where's the profit in this being a government conspiracy? I don't see the profit. Without some illusion of potentnial gains, at the very least, why go a-murderin' your tax-paying, money-in-your-pocket-putting citizens? It's like lopping off your thumb so the rest of your body can be horrified of your other hand.
The whole thing is ludicrous.

 

[GonzoGamer]

I like a good conspiracy theory but the problem is most conspiracy theorists try and find little details that don't really prove anything (just dig up irrelevant questions) while the really big questions are staring them right in the face.

For example: all the crazy theories about the twin towers being rigged to blow are irrelevant. Rigged to blow or not(and I think most of us would agree, not), those towers were melting from the plane crashes. The real question would be, why didn't the government do anything when they were in fact warned about it?

Another example: We invaded Iraq because of WMDs that weren't there. The real question I have is, since there were no WMDs, why didn't the government just plant some and lie to us?

There are many interesting questions about this Boston event, but its not about if these guys did it or not.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

So are you changing your argument from "America's not like that" to "other people do it too?"

Because it might be true that other people do it, but that doesn't negate the affirmative you seem to now be admitting.

I wasn't clear and didn't write in the thought that generated that. I meant to say that a small percentage of population as your statistics showed aren't necessarily logical in their thinking in other countries. My apologies for being unclear.

I'm not insulted, and by your logic if I'm not insulted than you're wrong to call it an insult to those who are not.

If you're not insulted for being lumped in with racists, well I can't speak for you then. You must have thicker skin than I do, but I still see it as an insult. Agree to disagree.

Yes, personal anecdotes definitely beat overall reactions. On that note, since almost 100% of the people I know support same sex marriage, I'm just going to state that an overwhelming majority of Americans do.

What's that, imaginary headset? That doesn't reflect America as a whole?

Please, don't rip Jon Stewart off if you want to have serious discussion. I was saying that in opposition to your statement that America as a whole has been decidedly prejudiced against Muslims (paraphrased), I don't find evidence to back your statement up in my area. I also didn't claim that "people I know" said that. In no way did I attribute that to generalize the entire country. My point was simply that not all of America is prejudiced, especially in the place where I live that happens to be *gasp* Bible Country. A place that gets generalized as racist or prejudicial.

I'd personally note that he said "Americans" and not "all Americans," but then, I'm not the one looking to deny a national problem.

Exactly, he said "Americans" which is a generalization that encompasses an entirety. But I shouldn't have to explain the difference. I'd like to see evidence of this "national problem" you speak of instead of your opinion based off of media coverage of what some people do in response to a tragedy. I don't condone attacks on people of any race or religion personally, I do understand though that some people have poor self control and poor judgment when it comes to heated topics and tragic happenings.
A natural reaction for people is to look for the easy target to blame but those who are inclined to think forward will ultimately ignore the gut reaction and wait for evidence.

 

[Guitarmasterx7]

Edit: I should probably mention that yes I understand that these guys shot a cop and throw bombs out a window while trying to outrun cops. And that there is supposedly a confession.

Then why is there any question as to whether or not they did it? The two men are without a shadow of a doubt responsible, at least to some degree. Whether or not they are SOLELY responsible is a fairly legitimate question that doesn't require you to bust out the tinfoil headgear, but they were definitely involved in it one way or another.

 

[Risingblade]

Wait till they go into court? To arrest someone you need probably cause then you can take to court. To get a jury to declare them guilty you need proof without a reasonable doubt. They already have enough proof to arrest them and they'll need to show the rest of the proof during the trial to convict.

Also don't use the media as your only source, they twist facts and make mistakes

 

[IronMit]

There's nothing wrong with questioning the officially story or wondering if the government is holding back information or straight up lying. In fact it means you are not a completely mindless idiot like 80% of the population. But you don't want to become like the 1% Alex Jones characters where you believe that every little insignificant thing is definitely a conspiracy.

I'm not going to show you proof but this should highlight some propaganda and hypocrisy;

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2013/03/charting-drone-strikes

click the diagram.

I'm not going to explain the relevance. Because if you can't see it then me explaining it to you won't help

 

[teebeeohh]

so this the issue you have with the aftermath of the bombing?
not the fact that people are calling for the surviving brother (a US citizen) to be denied his right to a fair trial because you feel like it?

 

[the clockmaker]

I don't understand what more evidence you need...

-They have surveillance videos of the suspects.
-The suspects killed a police officer, hijacked a car, and confessed to the man they hijacked the car from that they were the bombers.
-They threw explosives and shot at the police that were pursuing them
-The one that lived reportedly confessed while in custody.

Like others have said, not everything is a conspiracy.

End result : americans are reassured , and they prejudice views of muslams are reinforced .

Conclusion :. Whether they did it or not , it doesn't matter . The end result is the same.

I haven't seen hypocrisy like this in a while. You condemn prejudices and sweeping generalizations of a religion, while you insult an entire country with a sweeping generaliztion. Are you serious? A comment like this is not productive and you should apologize for it.

I won't apologize for it . Of course not EVERYONE thinks that . That's just comon sense . And what insult did i throw towards an entire country ? That they have prejudice views of muslims and islam ? Have you been living under a rock? Prejudice , racism and discrimination towards muslims have been present A LOT since 9/11 . Not to say it wasn't present before . Add the fact that Americans ( or most people in general ) don't care about the truth , they just want to feel safe . So i stand by my comment .

I won't apologise for it. Of course not all Muslims are terrorists. That's just common sense. And what insult did I throw towards an entire religion? That they have a hostile view towards the west and Jews and Christians? Have you been living under a rock? Prejudice, racism and discrimination coming from Muslims have been present a lot since 2001. Not to say that it wasn't present before. Add to the fact that most Muslim countries (or most third world countries in general) don't have access to a free and uncontrolled media, they just want to feel secure in old traditions. So I stand by my comment.

Tip for young players mate, if you want to see if your comment is dickish or not, imagine the other bloke saying the equivilent but against what you believe.

 

[sXeth]

If the guy turns up dead, and they throw him off the side of a boat at an undisclosed location, tehn say "Yep, dude was totally guilty, and that was definately the right guy" it might be time to call for some probing questions. As it stands, yeah, any interrogation/trial/evidence proceedings are probably underwraps until they've determined that they were working alone. If the guy writes off accomplice names, they're probably going to not want that on live TV and tweeted worldwide before they go get the accomplice.

 

[Elementary - Dear Watson]

The public don't need the evidence, the judge does... and in the case of home grown terrorism it is usually classified information not releasable to the public anyway... This is the type of thing where you just have to trust the professionals to do their jobs!

Your kidding right. Trust the professionals who ultimately have a track record of lying to the public, to hide their own agenda. And trust the judge, well thats even if it goes to court, which I'd say there will be a seriously slim chance of. You could nearly place bets that this lads untimely death will surprisingly happen just before any court case can take place. You look at the history of America when it comes to things like this and 9 times out of 10 there is no suspect either thei die of 'natural causes, suicide or some lone ' vigilantly gets to them before anything can go public.
Nope it will all be swept under the rug from the publics eyes and ears then in 10 years it will be used as part of some excuse for another war

As someone who works for my government and doesn't lie to the general public i find foil hatted comments like yours actually quite insulting, and I would like it if you didnt carry on throwing accusations about something you clearly have no idea on. Seriously, if it bothers you that much, get a job with the govt and be surprised when you find all your assumptions are way off of the ball...

 

[saoirse13]

The public don't need the evidence, the judge does... and in the case of home grown terrorism it is usually classified information not releasable to the public anyway... This is the type of thing where you just have to trust the professionals to do their jobs!

Your kidding right. Trust the professionals who ultimately have a track record of lying to the public, to hide their own agenda. And trust the judge, well thats even if it goes to court, which I'd say there will be a seriously slim chance of. You could nearly place bets that this lads untimely death will surprisingly happen just before any court case can take place. You look at the history of America when it comes to things like this and 9 times out of 10 there is no suspect either thei die of 'natural causes, suicide or some lone ' vigilantly gets to them before anything can go public.
Nope it will all be swept under the rug from the publics eyes and ears then in 10 years it will be used as part of some excuse for another war

As someone who works for my government and

lie to the general public i find foil hatted comments like yours actually quite insulting, and I would like it if you didnt carry on throwing accusations about something you clearly have no idea on. Seriously, if it bothers you that much, get a job with the govt and be surprised when you find all your assumptions are way off of the ball...

And what exactly is it that you do for the government, are you the janitor, or a secretary or do you have a high ranking job where your finger is placed advertised a few red buttons. I'm sorry, but that's what is called free speech another thing he government aren't too happy with. As someone who has seen and experienced the effects of a governments abuse of power and how they have covered certain tragedies up, I am entitled to my rit to question the bollocks told by the mouthpiece for the govt. and the fact hat you can sit there and tell me my assumptions are way off ball then you sir are not as well informed and educated as you like to think you are.

 

[saoirse13]

There is no proof, Elvis and John Lennon fed it all to the Loch Ness monster because the Illuminati reptilians told them to so that corporate America can control the oil so they can afford to make a fake Mars landing video. Cookey enough?

Seems like there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that puts the suspects in the guilty category.

Sounds legit. So long as they give us Bruce Lee and Jimi Hendrix back, I'm cool. We'll trade the clone of Paul McCartney that's been pretending to be him for years.

I love you both. Have to say that made me laugh a lot even if it did in some way make me sound like a looney.