Skullgirls and Sexism

[geK0]

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Oh no, using current issues to bring up larger, underlying problems is a common discussion technique. I wouldn't call it going off topic.

Misunderstood what you were saying; thought you were taking a shot at me for bringing up the underlying problem = \.

anyway

I don't see appealing to common sexual attractions as sexist. Why do you? maybe you can convince me to think as you do.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

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Oh no, using current issues to bring up larger, underlying problems is a common discussion technique. I wouldn't call it going off topic.

Misunderstood what you were saying; thought you were taking a shot at me for bringing up the underlying problem = \.

anyway

I don't see appealing to common sexual attractions as sexist.

When the vast majority of female characters have exaggerated proportions or wear skimpy clothes, it is sexist. No one would mind if that type of representation was a minority, but it isn't. And the character's sexiness is often used as their defining character trait. The industry could definitely use some reform in that department. Even if you don't won't to label it sexist, it still lacks tact.
And no worries. Just a little misunderstanding.

 

[Amilistine]

As a few people have said, it's not really sexism. Just a very poorly defined representation of womanly figures. I hadn't really looked much into this game, but it's obviously it's nothing groundbreakingly bad. There's a comic I recently found on tumblr that explains the "problems" of this out, but I'm too lazy to grab it.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

Oh yes, of course they're chiseled. That's what male players demand.

I have never demanded my player character be "chiseled". What I demand is simply this: a physique that seems like it would be able to perform the various tasks I see my character perform. This applies to both sexes. When I see a female character built out of little more than skin and bone doing anything more taxing than taking a brisk walk I start to question the underlying reality. When I see a man with 400 lbs of muscle performing nimble acrobatic maneuvers I call bullshit

Men's ideals for men and women's ideals for men are different, but men get their way when it comes to these ideals just like they get their way about ideals for women.

The majority of developers are men and evidence indicates the majority of large budget games are purchased by males. While there is an argument to be made that perhaps there is a market for large budget games directed at women, that simply isn't something that people are willing to bet tens of millions of dollars on.

And then they go and tell women what they want, oblivious to the fact it was their privilege that put it there.

I'm not sure what your point is here. When I play uncharted, I'm given the same Nathan drake as the next guy. When I play gears of war, I get the same set of meatheads as any other male. Neither character represents exactly what I want from a character by any stretch.

There's nothing crazier than how not only to many men tell other men that they're silly weirdos if they don't like the norm they propped up, but they say the same things to women who deviate from the norm they propped up.

While I think highly of my opinion, I never seriously imply that my opinion represents the only valid choice. Sure, I'd like to convince the world about a few things but that isn't terribly reasonable.

Are most men topless and sexualized? Not by a long shot. And this brings me to another spot on the Bingo chart...

Topless? Not often. But you argue that they are not sexualized? The male video game protagonist tends to have the following traits:

1) Handsome to sexy, a quality largely based on the perspective of the person who makes the character.
2) Selflessly heroic - to the extent that they might as well be the fairy tale knight in shining armor type
3) Fantastically masculine - square jaw, self assured and with a body somewhere between working out 10 hours a week with a personal trainer to "I spend all my time in the gym lifting heavy things".
4) Often in direct or indirect pursuit of a romantic goal

Make no mistake, male characters are sexualized. The catch is, being designed by males, such characters are not objectified ideal of the gender but rather classic examples of Marty Stu. In other words, they are the objectified ideal of the male gender as a male might see it.

 

[geK0]

-
Oh no, using current issues to bring up larger, underlying problems is a common discussion technique. I wouldn't call it going off topic.

Misunderstood what you were saying; thought you were taking a shot at me for bringing up the underlying problem = \.

anyway

I don't see appealing to common sexual attractions as sexist.

When the vast majority of female characters have exaggerated proportions or wear skimpy clothes, it is sexist. No one would mind if that type of representation was a minority, but it isn't. And the character's sexiness is often used as their defining character trait. The industry could definitely use some reform in that department.

Well I've pointed out plenty of characters that aren't defined by their sexiness; the majority of the games I play don't seem to over-sexualize females. It seems the usual culprits are MMOs and fighting games... hardly a majority really.

Maybe I'm just playing the wrong games?

 

[LilithSlave]

Basically, a muscular monster. That's not "sexy". Come on people, let's get past the idea that being muscular and hypermasculine looking is equal to sexualization or considered good looking to anyone other than the occasional muscle fetishist or to men in look of a power fantasy.

And you may not want the male characters to be hulking beasts of muscle, but it's still an unfortunate norm that a lot of guys support.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

-
Oh no, using current issues to bring up larger, underlying problems is a common discussion technique. I wouldn't call it going off topic.

Misunderstood what you were saying; thought you were taking a shot at me for bringing up the underlying problem = \.

anyway

I don't see appealing to common sexual attractions as sexist.

When the vast majority of female characters have exaggerated proportions or wear skimpy clothes, it is sexist. No one would mind if that type of representation was a minority, but it isn't. And the character's sexiness is often used as their defining character trait. The industry could definitely use some reform in that department.

Well I've pointed out plenty of characters that aren't defined by their sexiness; the majority of the games I play don't seem to over-sexualize females. It seems the usual culprits are MMOs and fighting games... hardly a majority really.

Maybe I'm just playing the wrong games?

Yeah, certain genres are a lot better about this than others. RPGs come to mind. Sounds to me like you are playing the right games.
Add action titles to the list that doesn't get it. X-Blades, Wet, Tomb Raider, etc.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

When the vast majority of female characters have exaggerated proportions or wear skimpy clothes, it is sexist.

Sexist: discriminatory on the basis of sex
Objectify: Degrade to the status of a mere object.

What you see here is not inherently sexist and especially not exclusively sexist towards women. Skullgirls is based on current information, sexist against men as you will note men are the one's being discriminated (in that they are excluded) against. If you look at fighting games in general you tend to note that most characters (of either gender) tend to have exaggerated physiques with wardrobe, move and weapon choices that help further highlight such things. This results in a caricature of both the male and female genders - a process that, at worst results in objectification. Ivy in Soul caliber is not defined by the fact she is a woman but by her implausibly enormous breasts.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

When the vast majority of female characters have exaggerated proportions or wear skimpy clothes, it is sexist.

Sexist: discriminatory on the basis of sex
Objectify: Degrade to the status of a mere object.

What you see here is not inherently sexist and especially not exclusively sexist towards women. Skullgirls is based on current information, sexist against men as you will note men are the one's being discriminated (in that they are excluded) against. If you look at fighting games in general you tend to note that most characters (of either gender) tend to have exaggerated physiques with wardrobe, move and weapon choices that help further highlight such things. This results in a caricature of both the male and female genders - a process that, at worst results in objectification. Ivy in Soul caliber is not defined by the fact she is a woman but by her implausibly enormous breasts.

Ah, that is a much more fitting word. Thank you. I personally dislike it for both sexes. I'd rather play with Jin Kisaragi or Noel Vermillion over Ivy or Ryu.

 

[geK0]

-
Oh no, using current issues to bring up larger, underlying problems is a common discussion technique. I wouldn't call it going off topic.

Misunderstood what you were saying; thought you were taking a shot at me for bringing up the underlying problem = \.

anyway

I don't see appealing to common sexual attractions as sexist.

When the vast majority of female characters have exaggerated proportions or wear skimpy clothes, it is sexist. No one would mind if that type of representation was a minority, but it isn't. And the character's sexiness is often used as their defining character trait. The industry could definitely use some reform in that department.

Well I've pointed out plenty of characters that aren't defined by their sexiness; the majority of the games I play don't seem to over-sexualize females. It seems the usual culprits are MMOs and fighting games... hardly a majority really.
Lilith for example readily admits to watching (reading?) "hardcore yaoi" but will still call a guy out on adding a little jiggle physics to his game.

Yea sexualization of females is more common, this doesn't mean it's inherently worse than male sexualization.
Maybe I'm just playing the wrong games?

Yeah, certain genres are a lot better about this than others. RPGs come to mind. Sounds to me like you are playing the right games.
Add action titles to the list that doesn't get it. X-Blades, Wet, Tomb Raider, etc.

While RPGs (especially final fantasy) tend to show some skin, they tend to have quite a bit of depth to them.

the games you're describing which have shallow sexualized female characters...well... since when are action titles known for character writing? lol!

The main thing that bothers me is the perception that males indulging in sexual content is viewed as sexist, while a female doing the same isn't usually held in a similar light.



off topic:
it seems kind of funny that I'm able to have a more engaging conversation in Game Discussion than I can in Religion and Politics lol

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

-
Oh no, using current issues to bring up larger, underlying problems is a common discussion technique. I wouldn't call it going off topic.

Misunderstood what you were saying; thought you were taking a shot at me for bringing up the underlying problem = \.

anyway

I don't see appealing to common sexual attractions as sexist.

When the vast majority of female characters have exaggerated proportions or wear skimpy clothes, it is sexist. No one would mind if that type of representation was a minority, but it isn't. And the character's sexiness is often used as their defining character trait. The industry could definitely use some reform in that department.

Well I've pointed out plenty of characters that aren't defined by their sexiness; the majority of the games I play don't seem to over-sexualize females. It seems the usual culprits are MMOs and fighting games... hardly a majority really.
Lilith for example readily admits to watching (reading?) "hardcore yaoi" but will still call a guy out on adding a little jiggle physics to his game.

Yea sexualization of females is more common, this doesn't mean it's inherently worse than male sexualization.
Maybe I'm just playing the wrong games?

Yeah, certain genres are a lot better about this than others. RPGs come to mind. Sounds to me like you are playing the right games.
Add action titles to the list that doesn't get it. X-Blades, Wet, Tomb Raider, etc.

While RPGs (especially final fantasy) tend to show some skin, they tend to have quite a bit of depth to them.

the games you're describing which have shallow sexualized female characters...well... since when are action titles known for character writing? lol!

The main thing that bothers me is the perception that males indulging in sexual content is viewed as sexist, while a female doing the same isn't usually held in a similar light.

I wouldn't blame it on the players. The characters are designed for them to do just that. The question becomes why the characters had to be designed like that in the first place. And no one is denying that girls like to indulge in media designed to sexually interest them. What some have a problem with is that in games both male and female characters are designed to please the male player. They don't take the female player into consideration.

 

[Deimateos]

And this game is obviously meant to be over the top and styled. I mean, one of the characters can detach her head to fight and another looks to be out of some Looney Tunes-esque cartoon.

Don't you dare bring context into this! What are you, some wise guy what's wants us to use our thinkin' brains, and com...comma...commi...that "sense" thing?

I think the main difference between a muscle-y Ryu and a boobatious skull girl is that being a muscular tank makes sense for a fighter, if his sole job is to punch people then being that muscular is beneficial to his job.

... and this is proof that you have never been a fighter.







Too much white knighting on these stupid threads. Two of these six characters have breasts that are very big for their frames (D-DD), two have med-large(C-D), two have average(B), and one has none. This isn't DoA: Beach Volleyball this is heavily stylized anime fighting game and all this fake chivalry is just showing who all the real immature sexists are.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

And this game is obviously meant to be over the top and styled. I mean, one of the characters can detach her head to fight and another looks to be out of some Looney Tunes-esque cartoon.

Don't you dare bring context into this! What are you, some wise guy what's wants us to use our thinkin' brains, and com...comma...commi...that "sense" thing?

I think the main difference between a muscle-y Ryu and a boobatious skull girl is that being a muscular tank makes sense for a fighter, if his sole job is to punch people then being that muscular is beneficial to his job.

... and this is proof that you have never been a fighter.







Too much white knighting on these stupid threads. Two of these six characters have breasts that are very big for their frames (D-DD), two have med-large(C-D), two have average(B), and one has none. This isn't DoA: Beach Volleyball this is heavily stylized anime fighting game and all this fake chivalry is just showing who all the real immature sexists are.

....we stopped talking about Skullgirls a while ago. XD
I find the character designs in it to be harmless, anyway.

 

[geK0]

I wouldn't blame it on the players. The characters are designed for them to do just that. The question becomes why the characters had to be designed like that in the first place. And no one is denying that girls like to indulge in media designed to sexually interest them. What some have a problem with is that in games both male and female characters are designed to please the male player. They don't take the female player into consideration.

The game market is generally perceived as male dominant, They're just appealing to that demographic.
Honestly though, I sometimes feel a little insulted by the way some people will try to appeal to males
"How can we make this game popular to men."
"Oh I know, lets make their tits jiggle"
I mean, I like breasts as much as the next guy, but I'm not going to buy a game just because it has some scantily clad women in it = \

I've seen stats that suggest the female gamer demographic is catching up to the male demographic surprisingly quickly (I forget where), maybe this means we'll see some more catering to females within the near future.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

I wouldn't blame it on the players. The characters are designed for them to do just that. The question becomes why the characters had to be designed like that in the first place. And no one is denying that girls like to indulge in media designed to sexually interest them. What some have a problem with is that in games both male and female characters are designed to please the male player. They don't take the female player into consideration.

The game market is generally perceived as male dominant, They're just appealing to that demographic.
Honestly though, I sometimes feel a little insulted by the way some people will try to appeal to males
"How can we make this game popular to men."
"Oh I know, lets make their tits jiggle"
I mean, I like breasts as much as the next guy, but I'm not going to buy a game just because it has some scantily clad women in it = \

I've seen stats that suggest the female gamer demographic is catching up to the male demographic surprisingly quickly (I forget where), maybe this means we'll see some more catering to females within the near future.

They are and I hope you are right. Nice talking to you.

 

[Vault101]

sexism?....nah there are other worse examples

this game if fully aware of what it is so I see no issues

 

[LilithSlave]

Lilith for example readily admits to watching (reading?) "hardcore yaoi" but will still call a guy out on adding a little jiggle physics to his game.

Because I'm okay with smut. And by the way it's a woman adding to this problem. Stephani Meyer adds to sexist problems as well.

Thing is, probably less than %10 of all video games fanservice women, and most of those that do don't reduce male characters to being fanservice. While probably over %70 of video games fanservice guys.

And this game isn't Tekken levels of (breast fetishism)fanservice, it's Vanguard Princess levels of (breast)fanservice. The last time I played a 2D fighting game with this much focus on breasts, it was Vanguard Princess. In fact in general, that's what this game reminds me more of than any other game. Vanguard Princess and Skullgirls, both are 2D, both are "anime styled", both are all female, both are indie games, and both have an insane attention to breast jiggling, and so on and so forth.

And while I like both games. I do think it's a kind of irksome extreme of the trend. Skullgirls doesn't just have a couple girls with jiggle physics, like, say, Blazblue, it's the whole cast.

It's a part of a sexist trend. It's not sexist maybe in and of itself, but it's like saying that social factors that keep black people poor aren't racist. They are.

And at the very least, people should accept and understand that this game isn't any different than those many porn-y anime games for the Nintendo DS that hardly anyone ever hears about, and when they do, they make fun of it. Heck, I enjoy some of those too, no matter what people say. It's not like they're mainstream games, anyway. A lot of these games are a lot more obscure than Skullgirls is going to be, they're also "guilty pleasures" so to speak, just like my yaoi/fanservicey otome games.

And yet a lot of things like this get mainstream recognition and the sexist trends continue on as normal, while other things are still considered guilty pleasures that aren't any worse. You know, they're looked at as niche games appealing to one audience. Or "those crazy Japanese anime games, what are they going to do this time?".

But this? This is treated like the norm. This is normalized. A male gaze on games, is normalized. If this was some weird panty fetch quest game, my guess is that people would be all over making fun of it and it's male skew or to a certain fetish and not being for everyone. But a game with bouncing boobs on almost every female? Yep, that's for everyone! No male skew here like in just about almost every game. This isn't any different than those mildly erotic doujin games that are all over the Japanese indie community.

But again, this passes, for normal. And certainly games like this, being as excitable to the gaming community as they are, are normalizing the male gaze.

 

[ms_sunlight]

I'm so sick and tired of this sexism bullshit. It's a cheap excuse for people to have a whinge.

Excuse me, but when the hell have people on the internet needed an excuse to whinge?

Anyway, I find the neverending parade of animated boobies just so tedious. Any individual set of animated boobies? Not such a big deal. Boobies everywhere, boobies without end, objectification poured upon sexualisation with a side order of fanservice? Tedious, depressing, harmful.

What I'm trying to say is, none of these things exist in a cultural vacuum, and while any one thing might not seem so bad, the overall effect that it has on our culture and how women are perceived and treated (and how we perceive and treat ourselves) is pernicious.

By the way, if any of you haven't already, you should see this on False Equivalence [http://www.shortpacked.com/2011/comic/book-13/05-the-death-of-snkrs/falseequivalence/].

 

[Grahav]

Holy shit, people!

I go out for my class, get stuck in traffic for 4 hours total and when I got back there is burning hate.

And the teacher hadn't appeared.

They weren't out to make a dead serious point as 'gamer activists', they were out to make a game full of stuff that THEY liked. I asked Kinuko on Twitter about the sexualization in this game and she specifically corrected me when I said it's "fanservice" or "designed to be sexy to the player" because the main reason for all this stuff is that it's what the CREATORS like.

Skullgirls is a very personal, self-indulgent game - one where sexiness isn't really out of place and *isn't really the focus anyway but simply a little extra*. And, well, this is the stuff that the creators happen to find sexy - do you really want them to add two guys that make out with each other really often just to make you happy?

Man, you only said intelligent things and made valid arguments. So many to quote!

But this is the most valid. It is something that the creators liked, wanted and dreamed for a long time. It is cruel to cut it off just because it is not politically correct or some shit.

Dude. I wasn't even looking at those "certain" features. They just all looked really fucking COOL. How did this game get under my radar? They all look unique and AWESOME!

Yes, they do, right !?

 

[geK0]

Lilith for example readily admits to watching (reading?) "hardcore yaoi" but will still call a guy out on adding a little jiggle physics to his game.

Because I'm okay with smut. And by the way it's a woman adding to this problem. Stephani Meyer adds to sexist problems as well.

Thing is, probably less than %10 of all video games fanservice women, and most of those that do don't reduce male characters to being fanservice. While probably over %70 of video games fanservice guys.

And this game isn't Tekken levels of (breast fetishism)fanservice, it's Vanguard Princess levels of (breast)fanservice. The last time I played a 2D fighting game with this much focus on breasts, it was Vanguard Princess. In fact in general, that's what this game reminds me more of than any other game. Vanguard Princess and Skullgirls, both are 2D, both are "anime styled", both are all female, both are indie games, and both have an insane attention to breast jiggling, and so on and so forth.

And while I like both games. I do think it's a kind of irksome extreme of the trend. Skullgirls doesn't just have a couple girls with jiggle physics, like, say, Blazblue, it's the whole cast.

It's a part of a sexist trend. It's not sexist maybe in and of itself, but it's like saying that social factors that keep black people poor aren't racist. They are.

And at the very least, people should accept and understand that this game isn't any different than those many porn-y anime games for the Nintendo DS that hardly anyone ever hears about, and when they do, they make fun of it. Heck, I enjoy some of those too, no matter what people say. It's not like they're mainstream games, anyway. A lot of these games are a lot more obscure than Skullgirls is going to be, they're also "guilty pleasures" so to speak, just like my yaoi/fanservicey otome games.

And yet a lot of things like this get mainstream recognition and the sexist trends continue on as normal, while other things are still considered guilty pleasures that aren't any worse. You know, they're looked at as niche games appealing to one audience. Or "those crazy Japanese anime games, what are they going to do this time?".

But this? This is treated like the norm. This is normalized. A male gaze on games, is normalized. If this was some weird panty fetch quest game, my guess is that people would be all over making fun of it and it's male skew or to a certain fetish and not being for everyone. But a game with bouncing boobs on almost every female? Yep, that's for everyone! No male skew here like in just about almost every game. This isn't any different than those mildly erotic doujin games that are all over the Japanese indie community.

But again, this passes, for normal. And certainly games like this, being as excitable to the gaming community as they are, are normalizing the male gaze.

Sexual content for is made more often for males; therefore it is sexist.

Sorry I'm just not buying this.