Skullgirls and Sexism

[Prosis]

Here's a solution.

It is sexist to some people, and not sexist to other people.

People who find it sexist: Do not buy the game. Buy another fighter that doesn't highlight sexuality. Vote with the dollar.

If you don't find it sexist: quit arguing about it. Any time you show cleavage or underwear, you'll get cries of sexism. In many cases in video games its justified (looking at you, Soul Calibur and DoA). In some its not. Regardless of whether or not its justified in this particular game, you won't be changing anyone's opinions, as each person doesn't see this as its own game, but as an extension of a common trend regarding female sexuality.

It's a small game, most likely just going to be a downloadable title, not going to win any awards, and will probably be flying under the radar of anyone who doesn't care about fighters.

To be honest, if I were the developer, I'd be happy with this outcry of sexism. His little-known game has now been viewed by tons of people who didn't even care about it before. I'm betting sales will go up significantly.

 

[LilithSlave]

I think that, while a lot of the media doesn't support the religious dogma, Christianity has still been a large influence on the mainstream media.

I don't think that sexism should be accepted anywhere. Including the video game industry.

 

[busterbeam]

Because, as people have used as attempt to defend the game, this makes up like %90 of all women in fighting games.

They weren't out to make a dead serious point as 'gamer activists', they were out to make a game full of stuff that THEY liked. I asked Kinuko on Twitter about the sexualization in this game and she specifically corrected me when I said it's "fanservice" or "designed to be sexy to the player" because the main reason for all this stuff is that it's what the CREATORS like.

Skullgirls is a very personal, self-indulgent game - one where sexiness isn't really out of place and *isn't really the focus anyway but simply a little extra*. And, well, this is the stuff that the creators happen to find sexy - do you really want them to add two guys that make out with each other really often just to make you happy?

 

[LilithSlave]

Oh, gee! A handful of men happen to be shirtless in comparison to hundreds if not thousands of hypersexualized women in the fighting game industry. That's totally the same!

And giving men muscles is sexualizing them and totally doesn't appeal more to men than women. Totally!

 

[Alexnader]

That tendency you describe, busterbeam, is because of the long-time practices of suppression of women's sexuality and the female gaze. It's social, not biological, I look at as much male t'n'a as any man does on a woman. I look at yaoi. Hardcore yaoi. Not because it's just because it's cute or something, I'm talking about explicit man on man action that shows off their bodies. And the media caters to y'all, not us, not because "the mysterious female mind is so prudish", but because people don't think our sexuality matters.

It's the tendency in fighting games such as Skullgirls that helps keep alive the dominance of the male gaze and suppression of the female gaze.

No if you want to complain about supression of female sexuality turn your gaze off of men and aim it squarely where that wrath belongs.

Abrahamic religion. The ones that do all that kill women for having sexual pleasure, desire, getting raped, refusing to marry her rapist, required women stay home, etc. Its not a human desire to keep our sex drives hidden like this. That's the church, and church supported governments that did this. Over hundreds of years our society forgot it was part of nature and we are already in the throws of removing those shackles. But you know what? YOu don't remove sexualization of women to match how men are sexualized you sexualize men to meet the sexualization of women. Make both sides happy don't make one miserable and one happy otherwise you are no better than those you fight.

I personally do not believe in a god, as such the laws of a religion in my mind come from the people who created said religion and reflects their attitudes/prejudices. While religion may make said prejudices canon, the prejudices had to already exist in the first place.

Furthermore given these inequalities continue to exist in the face of religion's fading relevance, I think it's safe to say that some of those prejudices are still embedded within society. As such it is our responsibility as men to recognise those prejudices and take steps to remove them without having to wait for all the churches to get burned down first.

The responsibility lies with women too, while evangelicals will still call people whores of Babylon or whatever the reality is that far more of this female gaze suppression is carried out by women who have bought into the role society has shown them as the "right" one. I hear the terms "slut", "whore" and "slag" used far more frequently by women than men. The predominant male insult is "*****" which implies ownership and superiority rather than denigrating the sexual activities of the victim.

 

[geK0]

Oh, gee! A handful of men happen to be shirtless in comparison to hundreds of not thousands of hypersexualized women in the fighting game industry. That's totally the same!

And giving men muscles is sexualizing them and totally doesn't appeal more to men than women. Totally!

Well what exactly do you want then?

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

Oh, gee! A handful of men happen to be shirtless in comparison to hundreds of not thousands of hypersexualized women in the fighting game industry. That's totally the same!

And giving men muscles is sexualizing them and totally doesn't appeal more to men than women. Totally!

Personally, I hate exaggerated muscles on guys.
This:

looks a lot better than this:

I understand that they are supposed to appeal to the adolescent male, but we all grew up. Men and women alike. Sexualization is fine, the hyper sexualization in most fighting games is just obnoxious.

 

[Alexnader]

Oh, gee! A handful of men happen to be shirtless in comparison to hundreds of not thousands of hypersexualized women in the fighting game industry. That's totally the same!

And giving men muscles is sexualizing them and totally doesn't appeal more to men than women. Totally!

Well what exactly do you want then?

I think Lilith has been dragged into a bit of a trap with this "equal amounts of female gaze as male gaze" stuff. The lack of positive representation of women is far more of a problem than the lack of sexualisation of men. To paraphrase Susan Arendt, a great step to gender equality in games would be an increase in the number of meaningful female protagonists. Take Wet for example, that game had the potential to portray its protagonist as a badass anti-hero who does what it takes in the harsh realm of occupied France. Instead it does slow mo shots of her sliding along the ground, chest pushed out as far as it will go as she shoots some Nazis. The problem is not necessarily gratuitous boobs, the problem is that said boobs define the character.

 

[LilithSlave]

I think Lilith has been dragged into a bit of a trap with this "equal amounts of female gaze as male gaze" stuff. The lack of positive representation of women is far more of a problem than the lack of sexualisation of men. To paraphrase Susan Arendt, a great step to gender equality in games would be an increase in the number of meaningful female protagonists. Take Wet for example, that game had the potential to portray its protagonist as a badass anti-hero who does what it takes in the harsh realm of occupied France. Instead it does slow mo shots of her sliding along the ground, chest pushed out as far as it will go as she shoots some Nazis.

Thanks! Very well put. These arguments are tiresome, I tell you.

And human beings are often very good at throwing a wrench into someone's argument be it a strawman or anything. You have to be very careful with how your words are read into and the like.

The tendency to sexualize women instead of sexualizing men often plays up the idea of men as strong while downplaying it for women. And generally sends the message, that the most important thing to be for a woman, is sexy.

It's okay for characters that aren't all about their sex appeal. Plenty of male ones exist. And I doubt that male fans in fact really do want other things about them downplayed in favor of flamboyant sexiness or something like that. There's a severe lack of serious female characters that aren't held back by an attempt at sex appeal. There are plenty of Gordan Freemans, Commander Shepards, and so on and so forth. But not too many female equivalents. Instead, we get this, time and time again.

A woman shouldn't have to be sexualized to be present. A woman should be important just because she's important, you know, like a man is treated.

 

[busterbeam]

I think Lilith has been dragged into a bit of a trap with this "equal amounts of female gaze as male gaze" stuff. The lack of positive representation of women is far more of a problem than the lack of sexualisation of men. To paraphrase Susan Arendt, a great step to gender equality in games would be an increase in the number of meaningful female protagonists. Take Wet for example, that game had the potential to portray its protagonist as a badass anti-hero who does what it takes in the harsh realm of occupied France. Instead it does slow mo shots of her sliding along the ground, chest pushed out as far as it will go as she shoots some Nazis.

It's because she realized she's just as much of a pervert as the icky breast fetishists when she remembered her gay anime porn. Hell we all are. The thing is that even that sort of sexiness has its place, especially in a silly game like Skullgirls.

Should there be more characters like The Boss, maybe even in roles that women can relate to as opposed to roles that the young male player can understand (seeing as she was practically a mother figure for Snake)? Definitely. Should there be more characters that just happen to be female, like the main character of Portal? Definitely. Is it lame when an otherwise serious game resorts to cheap out-of-place sexualization because that's just video game tradition (a good example is Xenoblade Chronicles with its overpowered 'bikini' item for the girl characters)? Yes. Will we make things better by dogpiling on stuff like Skullgirls which fills a harmless niche? No. CHRIST no.

 

[geK0]

Oh, gee! A handful of men happen to be shirtless in comparison to hundreds of not thousands of hypersexualized women in the fighting game industry. That's totally the same!

And giving men muscles is sexualizing them and totally doesn't appeal more to men than women. Totally!

Well what exactly do you want then?

I think Lilith has been dragged into a bit of a trap with this "equal amounts of female gaze as male gaze" stuff. The lack of positive representation of women is far more of a problem than the lack of sexualisation of men. To paraphrase Susan Arendt, a great step to gender equality in games would be an increase in the number of meaningful female protagonists. Take Wet for example, that game had the potential to portray its protagonist as a badass anti-hero who does what it takes in the harsh realm of occupied France. Instead it does slow mo shots of her sliding along the ground, chest pushed out as far as it will go as she shoots some Nazis. The problem is not necessarily gratuitous boobs, the problem is that said boobs define the character.

Well women in the videogame world aren't all sex objects
for example:

The female Heroic characters in Warcraft 3
The Boss in metal gear solid3
Yuna in FF X (not FFX-2 however)
Samus up until zero-suit samus became popular (I didnt even know samus was female for a while)
The woman in Res evil 5 (i forget her name)
Zelda
More recent interpretations of princess peach (there's actually a DS game where she saves mario)

(if you cant tell by now Im a bit of a nintendo fanboy)

and while a lot of female characters are quite sexualized, theyre not actually supporting traditional female roles... they're usually pretty bad ass and skilled (like the characters in skullgirls for example)

it seems like nerd culture finds power sexy.... is this sexist?

 

[busterbeam]

Oh, gee! A handful of men happen to be shirtless in comparison to hundreds if not thousands of hypersexualized women in the fighting game industry. That's totally the same!

And giving men muscles is sexualizing them and totally doesn't appeal more to men than women. Totally!

So women don't like muscles? Not every woman shares your taste in wispy kawaii yaoi bishies and you know it.

Come on, there's a big difference between Kratos from God of War and the Gears of War guys (obviously designed solely so guys would find them cool), and the characters that guy posted. Those are the types of character designs that Japanese fangirls go completely nuts over on Pixiv, especially the last dude. And hey, these are Japanese games.

The Sengoku Basara series is all about COOL HOT BLOODED DUDEZ and it has a gigantic female following.

Samus up until zero-suit samus became popular (I didnt even know samus was female for a while)

How is she a "sex object" just because they gave her a more revealing outfit? Hell even in other M she's not a "sex object". She's a badly written character but not a "sex object".

Do you even know what actual sexual objectification is?

 

[LilithSlave]

Most men in fighting games are topless and chiseled. Its not some minority present in the genre.

Oh yes, of course they're chiseled. That's what male players demand. And they complain that the male character is a "fag" if they don't get it. Men's ideals for men and women's ideals for men are different, but men get their way when it comes to these ideals just like they get their way about ideals for women. And then they go and tell women what they want, oblivious to the fact it was their privilege that put it there. There's nothing crazier than how not only to many men tell other men that they're silly weirdos if they don't like the norm they propped up, but they say the same things to women who deviate from the norm they propped up.

Are most men topless and sexualized? Not by a long shot. And this brings me to another spot on the Bingo chart...

- But men are all super-buff, they?re sexually objectified too!
- But there are sexualised male characters, like? uh, Marcus Fenix is sexy, right? I don?t know, I?m not a fag.

But seriously. What do you want to do about it and how do you propose you do it?

Having only a %20 portion or less in new fighting games consist of breast physics focused women.

The rest, I dunno, look normal? Or maybe some variation? Maybe raise that fanservice guy amount up to the same level? Have the majority of female characters well rounded and not have their main focus be some kind of sexual appeal.

And have more female characters in fighting games designed and muscular and capable, instead of highlighting the fatty areas of their bodies.

Hey, you seem to think that drawing men with gigantic muscles is sexualization. There we go, let's "sexualize" the women by drawing muscles on them! Because apparently drawing men to look capable is "sexualization".

 

[Alexnader]

Oh, gee! A handful of men happen to be shirtless in comparison to hundreds of not thousands of hypersexualized women in the fighting game industry. That's totally the same!

And giving men muscles is sexualizing them and totally doesn't appeal more to men than women. Totally!

Well what exactly do you want then?

I think Lilith has been dragged into a bit of a trap with this "equal amounts of female gaze as male gaze" stuff. The lack of positive representation of women is far more of a problem than the lack of sexualisation of men. To paraphrase Susan Arendt, a great step to gender equality in games would be an increase in the number of meaningful female protagonists. Take Wet for example, that game had the potential to portray its protagonist as a badass anti-hero who does what it takes in the harsh realm of occupied France. Instead it does slow mo shots of her sliding along the ground, chest pushed out as far as it will go as she shoots some Nazis. The problem is not necessarily gratuitous boobs, the problem is that said boobs define the character.

Well women in the videogame world aren't all sex objects
for example:

The female Heroic characters in Warcraft 3
The Boss in metal gear solid3
Yuna in FF X (not FFX-2 however)
Samus up until zero-suit samus became popular (I didnt even know samus was female for a while)
The woman in Res evil 5 (i forget her name)
Zelda
More recent interpretations of princess peach (there's actually a DS game where she saves mario)

(if you cant tell by now Im a bit of a nintendo fanboy)

and while a lot of female characters are quite sexualized, theyre not actually supporting traditional female roles... they're usually pretty bad ass and skilled (like the characters in skullgirls for example)

it seems like nerd culture finds power sexy.... is this sexist?

Well they're obviously not all sex objects, though I do find it interesting that you only cited old games/old franchises. It either says something about you or about where the games industry is headed.

I'd hardly say they're usually bad ass and skilled and they're definitely not usually the protagonist who lets face it, is the most important character. As a foil for the NPCs (Gordon Freeman), as the agent of change and as the box that the player uses to interact with the IG world.

As for the power thing I could say it's because the inherently shy nerd just wishes that the woman would take the initiative but that would be weird so I won't.

 

[busterbeam]

For god's sake "LilithSlave" please stop and question the things you're saying and doing. You certainly have the right idea but you're getting the execution ass-backwards; dogpiling people for liking normal people things is simply not the way to further your (frankly logical and important, at their core) ideas.

That's the most annoying thing about this new wave of Tumblr Internet feminism, there tends to always be a grain of truth at the very core of the most common complaints but people just get emotionally worked up with "us vs them" behavior a la that bingo chart, terms like "mansplaining" and other cliquey behaviors that simply don't work in the favor of the speaker at all, ever.

 

[Daffy F]

I dont see why its sexist... Its not like they're fighting to see who gets to make dinner or something.

Now THAT would be a weird game. Reminds me somehow of the ending to castle crashers. Just completely slapped me in the face with it's bizarre-ness.