Skullgirls and Sexism
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Like that makes things any better at all. In fact maybe it makes things worse.busterbeam said:
What about all the poor fat fetishists? Oh no, instead, a sexist norm must be catered to.
Yes, it is. Being against large breasts are jiggling breasts wouldn't be anything of any point but being against breasts. There's nothing sexist about chest fat.busterbeam said:
On the other hand, most media, far oversexualizes men. Judging women by one narrow aesthetic definition of beauty. While men, on the other hand, are more often judged by things like their merit, or how "badass" they look.
If you look at fighting games, men don't have to deal with this crap. Men aren't made into sex objects like the women. And while it doesn't mean we shouldn't ever sexualize women ever, this disparity and tendency is sexist and wrong.
I am against the current oversexualization of women in society and the current standard of beauty for women that states women need to be short, skinny, large chested, wrinkle-less and so forth.
We sexualize women too much as it is, but if we are, it would be more refreshing to give fat women some more love.
I'm not against breast fetishists. I'm against the constantly enforced and promoted norm of breast fetishism. As well as the oversexualization of women in general.
I'm against the male gaze being the dominant gaze in society. Which means I'm against women being treated as inherently more attractive than men.
I'm also against the male gaze being pushed into one tiny direction of what is acceptable. Which means I'm against skinny women being treated as inherently more attractive than fat women.
It amount to that women's beauty is considered too important. But fat women, tall women, flat women, wrinkly women, and so forth, deserve to feel beautiful as well.
We sexualize women too much as it is, but if we are, it would be more refreshing to give fat women some more love.
I'm not against breast fetishists. I'm against the constantly enforced and promoted norm of breast fetishism. As well as the oversexualization of women in general.
I'm against the male gaze being the dominant gaze in society. Which means I'm against women being treated as inherently more attractive than men.
I'm also against the male gaze being pushed into one tiny direction of what is acceptable. Which means I'm against skinny women being treated as inherently more attractive than fat women.
It amount to that women's beauty is considered too important. But fat women, tall women, flat women, wrinkly women, and so forth, deserve to feel beautiful as well.
I can't tell if you're joking or not. I'll assume that you are and address your other arguments as I normally would.LilithSlave said:
I knew this would come up.
Copy+pasting a rant I wrote on the Extra Credits forums because I think it applies here very well:
See, this is another problem I have with this type of internet discourse: the use of the word "objectify" to mean not "defining a character by their sexuality" but merely "portraying a character as sexual". Writing a female character as an actual 'sexual object' with no personality beyond that and with no critical intent is a *very* questionable thing and to use that word just for people giving their female characters sexy outfits is counter-productive and severely cheapens the true negative connotations of the word.
Just for the record, I'm not denying that the games industry, the comic book industry and, hell... MOST media targeted at nerds might have issues with portraying female characters because they very blatantly do, but there are clear reasons behind it beyond just video game players being socially awkward or something - it's much, much larger than that and extends way beyond nerdy media. It's a *huge* societal issue and it can't be dealt with by just thinking "people are sexist, let's make sure to call them out on tiny things they do in everyday life and hope things will get better". Personally, I believe that the prevalence of female "fanservice" and skin-showing is a result of two obvious facts:
1. Media like video games are mainly about escapism and entertainment, and we as a species really like looking at attractive people. We also get a superiority trip from dominating morally reprehensible people and putting them in their place. That is why a mix of unrealistically idealized protagonists beating up realistically morally reprehensible thugs will provide some of the best escapist entertainment out there for many, many people. "Cool" male characters are still designed in a way that will make them traditionally attractive to women, both so female fans will be attracted to them and so that male ones will project themselves over them and feel empowered. But of course, gaming outside of specific genres is a mostly male-populated field, so female characters are more likely to be blatantly portrayed as being intentionally attractive to the audience. This is when you'll probably think... "but male characters don't commonly wear skimpy clothing! Even in media designed specifically for women they're idealized in a way that's COMPLETELY different from women! You don't see the camera focusing on Edward Cullen's ass in Twilight!" and this is what brings me to my second and perhaps most important point...
2. Society's most commonly accepted standards of what is sexually attractive in men and women differ very greatly. Women tend to have completely different arousal patterns, both due to our brain's inherent hard-wiring and ESPECIALLY because of societal prejudice. Men are socially conditioned to have a certain kind of sexualization, feminine sexualization, push their buttons. Wearing skimpy clothes and showing off your body in a very specific way is considered an inherently feminine way of showcasing your sexuality - that's why men doing the same will prompt people to scream "HAHA HOW GAY" even if there's no trace of LITERAL homosexuality beyond the act. Or, for a game-related example, why this image is considered revolting by many a male gamer:
I'm sure that at least one of you was a bit bothered by my mere posting of this image if only on a subconscious level.
EVERYONE is fed these ideas of attractiveness from birth, and I do mean everyone. Why do you think far more women admit to being sexually attracted to members of their own gender than guys do? [http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2011/10/20/study-more-than-half-of-women-attracted-to-other-women_n_1021730.html] Yeah, it is perhaps in part something that can be explained away using evolutionary psychology, not to mention the obvious fact that same-sex attraction towards women is more socially acceptable than same-sex attraction towards men. But I also believe that there's a massive societal reason for it, including the fact that women are bombarded with sexual imagery of other women from birth. The covers of men's "how to be an alpha man and get women
" magazines and women's "how to be glamorous and attract men " magazines aren't actually different at all - both tend to give the reader a female to gaze sexually at. Men are portrayed as "hot" in a different way which is mostly a mix of just being physically attractive (though not necessarily showing off much skin) while having a certain set of attitudes and interests ("manly" ones). This type of "slutty" sexualization is simply not associated with male attractiveness by most of society - I mean, even gay male culture has some groups that look down on it and stress manliness.Male and female sexual attractiveness are showcased in completely different ways in modern society, and this is particularly obvious in the simple, escapist word of videogames that tends to strip away attempts at elegance and maturity and attempts to exploit our most primal urges like no other medium. And really, I'm not even sure if this is necessarily even a bad thing.
Personally, "sexy" isn't the first thing that came to mind when I saw ANY of these characters.LilithSlave said:
"quirky" "exaggerated" "cartoonish" "strange" "anime-like"
came to mind first and foremost. I don't think many people would find these characters to be all that attractive = \.
Do these characters have exaggerated body shapes? of course they do! so does just about every other cartoon in existence. Are they meant to be sexy? I really don't think so. If you want to see a sexist game, go look up "Dead or alive beach volley ball" or "Grand Theft Auto Vice City"
And what's this about "one narrow aesthetic definition of beauty" ? You really think that all men have a universal taste in women? There's a lot more to it (atleast my taste in women) than breast size; in fact, I've been quite attracted to some pretty flat chested girls and I've been quite put off by some otherwise attractive women because of bad personality.
But whatever, I guess I'm a sexist for liking women in the first place aren't I?
Dude. I wasn't even looking at those "certain" features. They just all looked really fucking COOL. How did this game get under my radar? They all look unique and AWESOME!
That tendency you describe, busterbeam, is because of the long-time practices of suppression of women's sexuality and the female gaze. It's social, not biological, I look at as much male t'n'a as any man does on a woman. I look at yaoi. Hardcore yaoi. Not because it's just because it's cute or something, I'm talking about explicit man on man action that shows off their bodies. And the media caters to y'all, not us, not because "the mysterious female mind is so prudish", but because people don't think our sexuality matters.
It's the tendency in fighting games such as Skullgirls that helps keep alive the dominance of the male gaze and suppression of the female gaze.
And this is an error in society that needs to be rectified. Not just that tram lady that thinks black people cannot be British and attempts to support white privilege in Britain, but things like this, too. You know that norm y'all talk about as so "wonderful" and "natural", it doesn't just promote short, skinny, large chested women, but has made most black women feel ugly in Western society.
It's the tendency in fighting games such as Skullgirls that helps keep alive the dominance of the male gaze and suppression of the female gaze.
And this is an error in society that needs to be rectified. Not just that tram lady that thinks black people cannot be British and attempts to support white privilege in Britain, but things like this, too. You know that norm y'all talk about as so "wonderful" and "natural", it doesn't just promote short, skinny, large chested women, but has made most black women feel ugly in Western society.
Reminder that oh8 himself has said that the characters are meant to be sexy and the team of this game are people that normally draw stuff like thisgeK0 said:
[NSFW]
http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/086/6/c/Oh_Mai_by_oh8.jpg
and this
http://visublog.mechafetus.com/img/src/1248933188209.jpg
[/NSFW]
And there's nothing fetishistic about them being "anime-like"? These drawings aren't inspired by Shin Chan or something, they're inspired by genuinely sexualized anime. You can't go against this, these people draw tons of stuff that's clearly meant to be sexy.
So don't complain about the male gaze, complain about the LACK OF FEMALE GAZE. Holy crap man, it's that simple! Don't insult people who like women for liking natural, normal things that people who like women are attracted to, complain that people who are attracted to guys aren't given the privilege of enjoying similar things involving the subject of THEIR attractions.LilithSlave said:
Ps I don't really like the terms "male gaze" and "female gaze" because not everyone is heterosexual.
I'm not, and no feminist ever has, in my experience, complained about the existence of a male gaze.
Merely the dominance of the male gaze in society.
Merely the dominance of the male gaze in society.
I agree. I think the term stuck because it's easier to say than "colonial heterosexist patriarchal social construct aesthetic" to describe the tendency in Western society to sexualize women more than men, treat the sexualization of women as normal and the sexualization of men as funny and weird, and the tendency to favor pale skin aesthetically.busterbeam said:
The art reminds me of Cel Damage. And since I've made that connection, I can't take it seriously. Sexist? Not so much. Just ridiculous.
Just because a lot of the sexism in Western society comes quite absolutely, from religion, does not mean one cannot criticize it in the media that helps reinforce it.
For the record I happen to be an outspoken atheist.
And you don't have to be religious to think that not everybody has to be a walking fetish object for someone. You know, people and fictional characters alike can be something other than sex symbols from time to time.
For the record I happen to be an outspoken atheist.
And you don't have to be religious to think that not everybody has to be a walking fetish object for someone. You know, people and fictional characters alike can be something other than sex symbols from time to time.
So why the "STOP IT WITH THE TITTIES GUYS SERIOUSLY STOP IT" complaints? Your very first post in this thread is JUST THAT.LilithSlave said:
The problem isn't the breast "fetishism" itself, it's the lack of female-targeted alternatives. And yet you still gang up on games like Skullgirls made by sincere, cool, talented people like they're the root of the problem!
Because, as people have used as attempt to defend the game, this makes up like %90 of all women in fighting games.
And nobody is challenging the idea that the Skullgirls team are talented people. No one is even villainzing them. You can call something racist or sexist without villainizing the people involved and comparing them to Tram Lady or Hitler or something. A degree of promoting some form or kind of privilege exists within almost every single human being on the planet.
And nobody is challenging the idea that the Skullgirls team are talented people. No one is even villainzing them. You can call something racist or sexist without villainizing the people involved and comparing them to Tram Lady or Hitler or something. A degree of promoting some form or kind of privilege exists within almost every single human being on the planet.
Speaking of the bingo game....Dexter111 said:
Yep, that's close enough.