Skullgirls and Sexism

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LilithSlave

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busterbeam said:
dogpiling people
"Dogpiling" people means ganging up on them, not disagreeing with them. I'm one person.

Furthermore, normal does not mean "good" or "equal". Furthermore, I'm not attacking anyone. I'm calling out something that's sexist out on being sexist. It just so happens that the status quo in Western society is sexist, racist, and heteronormative.
 

Alexnader

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busterbeam said:
Alexnader said:
I think Lilith has been dragged into a bit of a trap with this "equal amounts of female gaze as male gaze" stuff. The lack of positive representation of women is far more of a problem than the lack of sexualisation of men. To paraphrase Susan Arendt, a great step to gender equality in games would be an increase in the number of meaningful female protagonists. Take Wet for example, that game had the potential to portray its protagonist as a badass anti-hero who does what it takes in the harsh realm of occupied France. Instead it does slow mo shots of her sliding along the ground, chest pushed out as far as it will go as she shoots some Nazis.
It's because she realized she's just as much of a pervert as the icky breast fetishists when she remembered her gay anime porn. Hell we all are. The thing is that even that sort of sexiness has its place, especially in a silly game like Skullgirls.

Should there be more characters like The Boss, maybe even in roles that women can relate to as opposed to roles that the young male player can understand (seeing as she was practically a mother figure for Snake)? Definitely. Should there be more characters that just happen to be female, like the main character of Portal? Definitely. Is it lame when an otherwise serious game resorts to cheap out-of-place sexualization because that's just video game tradition (a good example is Xenoblade Chronicles with its overpowered 'bikini' item for the girl characters)? Yes. Will we make things better by dogpiling on stuff like Skullgirls which fills a harmless niche? No. CHRIST no.
Oh I wasn't attacking Skullgirls, in fact the creator of that game said pretty much what I said only better.

It's also important to point out the difference between something being sexy and being sexist. I think the role of a character plays more of a defining element than what they look like. People complain about hour-glass figured female characters, but rarely do they complain about muscular/ perfectly fit male characters. Both of these are completely fine and acceptable in my opinion. The real issue comes from what their role and actions are. If a character is a sideline character and their sole purpose is to be a sex object, then it is sexist. If the character is a competent contributor to the story, then it is not sexist, even if they look sexy. Looking at a screenshot by itself, or judging by the artwork alone is extremely short-sighted. People who make knee-jerk reactionary judgments should have never been acknowledged.
Also the guy is called Alex too so he's cool.
 

geK0

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Alexnader said:
Well they're obviously not all sex objects, though I do find it interesting that you only cited old games/old franchises. It either says something about you or about where the games industry is headed.

I'd hardly say they're usually bad ass and skilled and they're definitely not usually the protagonist who lets face it, is the most important character. As a foil for the NPCs (Gordon Freeman), as the agent of change and as the box that the player uses to interact with the IG world.

As for the power thing I could say it's because the inherently shy nerd just wishes that the woman would take the initiative but that would be weird so I won't.[/quote]

I'm sort of out of loop with new games since the death of blockbuster : S


Delphine from Skyrim
The archer girl from the companions in skyrim ( she's actually my favourite character in that guild)
Meril from Metal gear
Lightning and Fang from FFXIII (not vanille because she's blatantly sexualized and seems to be orgasming in every fight 0_0)

umm cat woman? (never played the recent batman games)
Ms. Tron (does she count as a new character after being in MVC3? = \)
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

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LilithSlave said:
"Dogpiling" people means ganging up on them, not disagreeing with them. I'm one person.

Furthermore, normal does not mean "good" or "equal". Furthermore, I'm not attacking anyone. I'm calling out something that's sexist out on being sexist. It just so happens that the status quo in Western society is sexist, racist, and heteronormative.
You look like you could use some support. You are right, anyway. The gaming community just gets really defensive about these things. Instead of accepting that things need to change, they try to rationalize the status quo.
 

LilithSlave

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RT-Medic-with-shotgun said:
Make a guy thin and not showing nay trace of masculinity and idiots will call him a fag. Why? Because its a derogatory statement for someone they perceive lacking in masculinity; based on the fact the character is male but doesn't look like he is. And honestly i don't know of any tiny slim guys like from that one image i see in media outside bieber and Japanese culture. And bieber is a stretch for the issue we are talking about.
And you're defending that?

Muscularity =/= masculinity. Most men are not very muscular. And certainly not to the inhuman extent you see it in a lot of video games and comics. But the reason you see that is because a lot of guys like that and venerate extreme masculinity as superior. It's a power fantasy for them, the idea of being better than other humans. And it's their taste that gets catered to. And that's male privilege.

I'm a woman, and I have fairly common tastes in men. I'm not into curves or a womanly figure or anything like that. People in another thread didn't even think I am bisexual and am just a heterosexual woman. But you know what? I'm not attracted to gigantic men. I'm attracted to guys like this.

This is the type of guy and figure I and a lot of women like. Is it what we get in video games? No, because it's not what guys want. Instead, gamers get Gears of War.
 

busterbeam

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"Dogpiling" people means ganging up on them, not disagreeing with them. I'm one person.
Yeah people who say the things you do in the same way are a growing group of people that will eventually become very well known on nerdy communities like this. It's up to you whether you'll be known as a force of good or just get an "oh, it's one of THOSE people" reaction every time you speak your mind.
Furthermore, normal does not mean "good" or "equal". Furthermore, I'm not attacking anyone. I'm calling out something that's sexist out on being sexist. It just so happens that the status quo in Western society is sexist, racist, and heteronormative.
Why is this game bad for not striving for equality? The creators wanted to make a silly, fun, stylish game with quirky characters that happen to be sexy... so they did. WHY IS THIS WRONG.

Is it because they're not going out of their way making something they don't want to make to create a revolutionary, progressive game that will personally make you happy? I totally understand disliking these things in other types of games - armor being realistic for guys but unrealistic for women in more serious fantasy games is genuine sexism. Games like Dead or Alive giving their female characters zero personality and visual characterization beyond a strange fetishistic childish one that weird men in Japan find sexy is sexism. Making a self-indulgent game about a bunch of quirky girls in a cartoony Bruce Timm/Hiroyuki Imaishi-inspired world with plenty of personality who happen to be sexy is not sexist. It really isn't!
You look like you could use some support. You are right, anyway. The gaming community just gets really defensive about these things. Instead of accepting that things need to change, they try to rationalize the status quo.
I'm not rationalizing the status quo, I WANT to see more female characters that women can relate to and I WANT to see more male characters that are sexualized.

I just, you know, don't want stuff like Skullgirls to be vilified.
 

geK0

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RedEyesBlackGamer said:
LilithSlave said:
"Dogpiling" people means ganging up on them, not disagreeing with them. I'm one person.

Furthermore, normal does not mean "good" or "equal". Furthermore, I'm not attacking anyone. I'm calling out something that's sexist out on being sexist. It just so happens that the status quo in Western society is sexist, racist, and heteronormative.
You look like you could use some support. You are right, anyway. The gaming community just gets really defensive about these things. Instead of accepting that things need to change, they try to rationalize the status quo.
Im mainly arguing that games like this one aren't as big an issue as some people make them out to be. It doesn't seem right to label everything which is sexy as sexist imo.
That being said, this game really doesn't appeal to me that much.
 

LilithSlave

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RT-Medic-with-shotgun said:
Most men aren't muscular but then most men don't look like little girls.
Neither does this guy.
LilithSlave said:
And don't come at me with some "His shoulders aren't gigantic like Duke Nukem and Adam Jensen and Gordon Freeman! He looks like a little girl! If a woman looked like that you'd say they looked exactly like a man with no tits and no curves or anything. Just because a lot of us don't care for the male ideal of masculinity doesn't mean we're not attracted to men. Men shouldn't get to decide anymore what a man is.
 

geK0

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LilithSlave said:
RT-Medic-with-shotgun said:
Make a guy thin and not showing nay trace of masculinity and idiots will call him a fag. Why? Because its a derogatory statement for someone they perceive lacking in masculinity; based on the fact the character is male but doesn't look like he is. And honestly i don't know of any tiny slim guys like from that one image i see in media outside bieber and Japanese culture. And bieber is a stretch for the issue we are talking about.
And you're defending that?

Muscularity =/= masculinity. Most men are not very muscular. And certainly not to the inhuman extent you see it in a lot of video games and comics. But the reason you see that is because a lot of guys like that and venerate extreme masculinity as superior. It's a power fantasy for them, the idea of being better than other humans. And it's their taste that gets catered to. And that's male privilege.

I'm a woman, and I have fairly common tastes in men. I'm not into curves or a womanly figure or anything like that. People in another thread didn't even think I am bisexual and am just a heterosexual woman. But you know what? I'm not attracted to gigantic men. I'm attracted to guys like this.

This is the type of guy and figure I and a lot of women like. Is it what we get in video games? No, because it's not what guys want. Instead, gamers get Gears of War.
I'm willing to agree that Skrillex is kind of cute. lol


Maybe you'll see some small unmasculized male characters when market researchers realize that there is a growing female demographic that needs to be catered to.
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

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Jan 23, 2011
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geK0 said:
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
LilithSlave said:
"Dogpiling" people means ganging up on them, not disagreeing with them. I'm one person.

Furthermore, normal does not mean "good" or "equal". Furthermore, I'm not attacking anyone. I'm calling out something that's sexist out on being sexist. It just so happens that the status quo in Western society is sexist, racist, and heteronormative.
You look like you could use some support. You are right, anyway. The gaming community just gets really defensive about these things. Instead of accepting that things need to change, they try to rationalize the status quo.
Im mainly arguing that games like this one aren't as big an issue as some people make them out to be. It doesn't seem right to label everything which is sexy as sexist imo.
That being said, this game really doesn't appeal to me that much.
Really, Skullgirls has just been used to springboard into the issue of women's representations in games as a whole. That is a big issue.
 

Alexnader

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May 18, 2009
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geK0 said:
Alexnader said:

I'm sort of out of loop with new games since the death of blockbuster : S


Delphine from Skyrim
The archer girl from the companions in skyrim ( she's actually my favourite character in that guild)
Meril from Metal gear
Lightning and Fang from FFXIII (not vanille because she's blatantly sexualized and seems to be orgasming in every fight 0_0)

umm cat woman? (never played the recent batman games)
Ms. Tron (does she count as a new character after being in MVC3? = \)
[/quote]
RPGs don't count. That's unfair :p You could also say basically every female in Mass Effect as well. The problem is certainly more isolated to specific genres. I.e. MMOs, FPSes etc.

I don't play enough games with women in them to have an extensive list of derpy female characters, it's all pseudo military wank for me!

One extra thing I will add on though is the Mass Effect romance stuff creeps me out. Admittedly I've only just started and I'm still not very far through it but it just strikes me as incredibly tacked on. In the dialogue options it seems to go "We're discussing military/strategic/academic matters of galactic importance" - "Would you kiss ANYONE I ordered you to?" It's completely off tone! "Thank you for getting me this data drive Shepard!" "I can offer you MUCH more". Christ Shepard is a creep.
 

LilithSlave

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RT-Medic-with-shotgun said:
And if normal is not good then why is the Japanese version of "normal" preferred?
Oh, great. So when I made a thread in the past and posts acting like there are differences between Eastern and Western culture, and people tell me "no, no!" and argue with me, and here you come in and say that men look muscular outside of the East. Furthermore you basically say Japanese aesthetic ideals are "not normal". There's no such thing as "normal" or "not normal" cultures.

Furthermore, I think you see this in video games, because, believe it or not, for all the Confuscian inspired in Asia, Japan included, Japan has more female fanservice in it's video games than a lot of Western ones. The reason a lot of jRPG characters are designed like that instead of Duke Nukem, is largely to appeal to the fujoshi who heavily consume such materials. They're also the reason why Raiden made a show up in Metal Gear. And in the West, the same trend follows, but there's often more fangirls of Japanese video games than Western ones, because we often don't care to their tastes. Aside from games like the Sims, of course. You see Kingdom Hearts fangirls aplenty, but you don't see Duke Nukem fangirls, no, you see Duke Nukem fanboys. There's a reason for that. Duke Nukem is what many guys want, Axel is what many girls want. If you look at Asian boybands and Western boybands, they both look almost the same. Are you going to tell me that Tokio Hotel is "Japanese culture"? David Bowie? Come on. There's also a reason that manga sells better among United States American females than superhero comics.

This is all because most women like guys, not monsters made out of hulking muscles.

Not that Asia isn't as loaded with problems and sexism just like the West. A lot of it comes with Confucianism which states that inequality is desirable and virtuous, but I digress. If this is a Japanese thing, which it might not be, it apparently means that there's about a handful more Japanese games that appeal to women's tastes rather than the tastes of men. Women in Japan, fujoshi in particular, request such guys. Not that Japan even caters enough to women's tastes. But if you're saying this is a Japanese thing, you're saying that sexist ole' Japan caters more to women's tastes in video games than the United States!

I do know that in Japan, shounen comics actually sell slightly better in Japan among women than shoujo. All because shounen mangaka keep the female audience in mind when creating characters like the much hated Sasuke.
 

geK0

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RedEyesBlackGamer said:
geK0 said:
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
LilithSlave said:
"Dogpiling" people means ganging up on them, not disagreeing with them. I'm one person.

Furthermore, normal does not mean "good" or "equal". Furthermore, I'm not attacking anyone. I'm calling out something that's sexist out on being sexist. It just so happens that the status quo in Western society is sexist, racist, and heteronormative.
You look like you could use some support. You are right, anyway. The gaming community just gets really defensive about these things. Instead of accepting that things need to change, they try to rationalize the status quo.
Im mainly arguing that games like this one aren't as big an issue as some people make them out to be. It doesn't seem right to label everything which is sexy as sexist imo.
That being said, this game really doesn't appeal to me that much.
Really, Skullgirls has just been used to springboard into the issue of women's representations in games as a whole. That is a big issue.
Excuse me for veering slightly off topic, my bad.

OT:
The characters in this game are sexualized, I don't think this is an issue, you apparently do.

explain to me thoroughly why you believe this is an issue and we can begin having a real (on-topic)discussion.
 

Eclectic Dreck

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Objectification and Sexism are not the same thing. What I see here is objectification. I see nothing that indicates sexism. If you really wanted to stretch things, the only argument of sexism that could be leveled would be against men as, you will note, no male qualifies for this fighting tournament. For this game to be sexist against women the game would need to state or imply (through various means) that women are different (it works best if they are represented as inferior) than men in ways that are not supported by by reasonable biological evidence.

For example, if the game states something to the effect that all the participants are women because only women are of the fragile mental state required to participate in such brutal bloodsport, then you could cry sexism. If the game instead demonstrates that the women in this game have large breasts and comic book sculpted bodies (what I currently see) then all you have done is give me a caricature of women that reduces the idea of femininity to an easily measured metrics (e.g. breast measurements).

That doesn't mean people shouldn't complaint about such objectification because that is, by far, the more prevalent issue in games. That said, video games tend to objectify men as often as women. It just happens that the square jawed brown haired habitual hero seems less negative than "sex vixen" even though it is exactly as incorrect.
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

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Jan 23, 2011
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geK0 said:
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
geK0 said:
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
LilithSlave said:
"Dogpiling" people means ganging up on them, not disagreeing with them. I'm one person.

Furthermore, normal does not mean "good" or "equal". Furthermore, I'm not attacking anyone. I'm calling out something that's sexist out on being sexist. It just so happens that the status quo in Western society is sexist, racist, and heteronormative.
You look like you could use some support. You are right, anyway. The gaming community just gets really defensive about these things. Instead of accepting that things need to change, they try to rationalize the status quo.
Im mainly arguing that games like this one aren't as big an issue as some people make them out to be. It doesn't seem right to label everything which is sexy as sexist imo.
That being said, this game really doesn't appeal to me that much.
Really, Skullgirls has just been used to springboard into the issue of women's representations in games as a whole. That is a big issue.
Excuse me for veering slightly off topic, my bad.

OT:
The characters in this game are sexualized, I don't think this is an issue, you apparently do.

explain to me thoroughly why you believe this is an issue and we can begin having a real (on-topic)discussion.
Oh no, using current issues to bring up larger, underlying problems is a common discussion technique. I wouldn't call it going off topic.
 

LilithSlave

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RT-Medic-with-shotgun said:
We. Are. Done. Here.

Understood?
Okay, then I'll expect you to ignore me as well. You haven't provided reason for me to change my mind. And I'm going to continue saying what I believe.