Skyrim, level-scaling, and you.

[Danpascooch]

You need to pay attention, and not quote me out of context like that, I said there is no way they will be level-fucking-two IF they don't intentionally try to keep their level down, which nobody does except as an experiment. I'm not talking about what the REQUIREMENT happens to be, I'm talking about what players actually experience if they don't try to break the game, because that's all that matters.

It doesn't matter what context I quote you in, because I read it in context.

I never said people would beat the MQ at level 2. But you're bent on (loudly) making that point, framed as some sort of rebuttal to the lack of level requirements.

You also can't fast travel everywhere, because you need to first FIND all of the locations the main quest brings you to.

Weynon Priory and Kvatch are pre-discovered to prevent the player from having to do any playing. The many gates you have to closer are all ten feet outside the towns. Same with the temple.

Whether or not you like the main quest is pretty irrelevant to what we're talking about, should I assume since you neglected to mention any of the things I said in my last post besides a half sentence quote taken out of context that you agree with the points I made?

You made essentially two points. In arguing with me, you're just apologizing for bad game design and pacing.

I'm not apologizing for them, I'm saying why most of them don't make any difference at all.

And yeah, the fact that nobody beats the game at level two IS a good rebuttle to the problem that the game can be beaten at level 2, since, you know, it makes it completely fucking irrelevant.

I'm sticking with my two points because I believe they are correct and they have yet to be properly shot down. Your problem is that you are assuming that the design of the game was poor and that I am apologizing for it, when really it's just your OPINION that it is poor, and what I'm actually doing is trying to explain to you why it's not.

Of course the game isn't idiot proof, why should they bother to make it idiot proof? Idiots deserve whatever harm they inflict upon themselves by trying to beat the game at level 2 instead of enjoying it as they should.

 

[Chibz]

Oblivion's level scaling was bullshit. It should die in a fire.

 

[maturin]

And yeah, the fact that nobody beats the game at level two IS a good rebuttle to the problem that the game can be beaten at level 2, since, you know, it makes it completely fucking irrelevant.

*sigh*
So people can beat it at level 5. Whoop-de-do.

That brilliant observation which you have put such uncommon energy into professing doesn't make anything at all 'irrelevant' because the example of the level 2 restriction wasn't a complain in its own right but only a fact indicative of the overall complaint and problem which you have COMPLETELY IGNORED in this exchange, making it all a pedantic waste of time.

Regardless of what level people actually beat the MQ, and regardless of what their natural experience of the game is, it will still be an experience shaped by the shoddy level scaling mechanic of the game and will resemble the one panned by many, many posters in this thread.

what I'm actually doing is trying to explain to you why it's not.

So everything is okay because players will not be level 2 when they save the world from hell itself. Compelling.

Of course the game isn't idiot proof, why should they bother to make it idiot proof? Idiots deserve whatever harm they inflict upon themselves by trying to beat the game at level 2 instead of enjoying it as they should.

I have already shown you nigh irrefutably (since you didn't actually argue other than weakly point out that there is a lull in the action) that there is nothing idiotic about playing the game in the linear fashion that befits its story. Do you take a weeklong break in the middle of reading a book?

Your only actual contention here is in calling people idiots for beating the game at level 2, a strawman since I never suggested that the game encourages players to remain at the level when beating the MQ became possible.

And since this has all fast become a waste of time, here is the problem in a nutshell: defeating the forces of hell itself and saving the world with brute force should be difficult and scary. It is stupid that this can be accomplished by characters that would be hard-pressed to defeat a scarecrow in a real RPG and that the player has absolutely no consequences for neglecting his/her task of improving their skills, and that they face absolutely no consequences and are not made responsible for their actions. That there is no meaningful sense of progression, just incidental change wherein the world revolves unrealistically around the character in shallow, uninspired, immersion-breaking fashion.

 

[NezumiiroKitsune]

Actually, I haven't heard a single reason why this is not bizarre or idiotic, and certainly nothing that suggests it's ENCOURAGED!

Did you read my post? I will repeat the important parts, in caps since you seem to put some stock in them.

At the start of the game, the game says GO HERE. Then GO HERE.

At that point, you realize OH GOD THE WORLD IS ENDING AND THE FREAKING DEVIL JUST KILLED A FEW THOUSAND PEOPLE.

I wonder what I should do in this situation? Maybe learn to pick locks and cast light spells in my spare time? Go deer-hunting or help passerby in danger?

Or maybe I should RESCUE THE WORLD'S ONLY HOPE FOR SURVIVAL. Naw, maybe some calisthenics and petty theft instead-- OH GOD THOSE GUYS ARE ATTACKING MY CHURCH and now MY CASTLE and now MY TOWN and now ALL THOSE OTHER TOWNS and now THAT ONE REALLY BIG TOWN and OH LOOK A DRAGON WTF HAPPENED AND I'm level 4.

So tell me again how people are functionally retarded for playing the main story quest the way it was designed to be played, and the only way in which it makes any narrative sense?

Morrowind's MQ at several points outright told you to get some experience and money, join some factions, etc. It was literally and thematically about the growth of you character, and the world would murder you if you weren't up to the task.

This is what I liked about New Vegas, you didn't feel compelled to preform any vital task, you weren't coerced in any direction for the sake of humanity or any other fantastical aim, you were just given the suggestion you might want to go after your assailants. You don't have to, but if you want to, you can. The epic scale of what you were involved in evolved throughout gameplay and you became well reknown in the wastes eventually picking a side or going it alone, or indeed, ignoring the problem altogether, since you aren't being caled up by anyone to save them or fight for them (well apart from one guy but he's a autocrat businessman who you don't feel too bad turning down).

I'm sure Bethesda will have learnt from this one thing from Obsidian, which should make Skyrim much better paced.

 

[maturin]

This is what I liked about New Vegas, you didn't feel compelled to preform any vital task, you weren't coerced in any direction for the sake of humanity or any other fantastical aim, you were just given the suggestion you might want to go after your assailants. You don't have to, but if you want to, you can. The epic scale of what you were involved in evolved throughout gameplay and you became well reknown in the wastes eventually picking a side or going it alone, or indeed, ignoring the problem altogether, since you aren't being caled up by anyone to save them or fight for them (well apart from one guy but he's a autocrat businessman who you don't feel too bad turning down).

I'm sure Bethesda will have learnt from this one thing from Obsidian, which should make Skyrim much better paced.

Morrowind was the same way.

The pace of the MQ was glacial, and it could easily take you from level 1 into the twenties. It began with mystery, and you were half detective, half pilgrim, learning about the gameworld, thousands of years of history and yourself along the way.

 

[Danpascooch]

And yeah, the fact that nobody beats the game at level two IS a good rebuttle to the problem that the game can be beaten at level 2, since, you know, it makes it completely fucking irrelevant.

*sigh*
So people can beat it at level 5. Whoop-de-do.

That brilliant observation which you have put such uncommon energy into professing doesn't make anything at all 'irrelevant' because the example of the level 2 restriction wasn't a complain in its own right but only a fact indicative of the overall complaint and problem which you have COMPLETELY IGNORED in this exchange, making it all a pedantic waste of time.

Regardless of what level people actually beat the MQ, and regardless of what their natural experience of the game is, it will still be an experience shaped by the shoddy level scaling mechanic of the game and will resemble the one panned by many, many posters in this thread.

what I'm actually doing is trying to explain to you why it's not.

So everything is okay because players will not be level 2 when they save the world from hell itself. Compelling.

Of course the game isn't idiot proof, why should they bother to make it idiot proof? Idiots deserve whatever harm they inflict upon themselves by trying to beat the game at level 2 instead of enjoying it as they should.

I have already shown you nigh irrefutably (since you didn't actually argue other than weakly point out that there is a lull in the action) that there is nothing idiotic about playing the game in the linear fashion that befits its story. Do you take a weeklong break in the middle of reading a book?

Your only actual contention here is in calling people idiots for beating the game at level 2, a strawman since I never suggested that the game encourages players to remain at the level when beating the MQ became possible.

And since this has all fast become a waste of time, here is the problem in a nutshell: defeating the forces of hell itself and saving the world with brute force should be difficult and scary. It is stupid that this can be accomplished by characters that would be hard-pressed to defeat a scarecrow in a real RPG and that the player has absolutely no consequences for neglecting his/her task of improving their skills, and that they face absolutely no consequences and are not made responsible for their actions. That there is no meaningful sense of progression, just incidental change wherein the world revolves unrealistically around the character in shallow, uninspired, immersion-breaking fashion.

Overall complaint and problem? Do tell, because in fact it's not technically ignoring it, if you haven't FUCKING MENTIONED IT ONCE! It's called "not being able to read your mind"

This entire time you've been talking about how you can beat the game at level two, if that's part of some larger complaint you need to VOCALIZE that for Christ's sake.

 

[maturin]

Overall complaint and problem? Do tell, because in fact it's not technically ignoring it, if you haven't FUCKING MENTIONED IT ONCE! It's called "not being able to read your mind"

This entire time you've been talking about how you can beat the game at level two, if that's part of some larger complaint you need to VOCALIZE that for Christ's sake.

You were the one talking about context, so I assumed you had read... the thread.

 

[BrionJames]

I am pleased that they are not using fucking level scaling. when I first pop into a game I shouldn't be able to fight and kill demons and elementals right off the bat. It doesn't make any sense to be able to at that point. Plus there's nothing more annoying than being level 30 and having to fight a fucking normal ass goblin for five minutes.

 

[badgersprite]

I heard it scales to you once you enter an area, so it will be challenging the first time you enter, say, a big dungeon, but when you go back, they won't start spawning higher level enemies, or the notorious bandits in Daedric armor.

So it's good. It should always feel consistent, and it shouldn't break flow, which is the important thing. The best part of Oblivion was getting lost in the world, so anything that makes it feel more immersive is a plus.

 

[Googenstien]

This news of level scaling has taken this game off my radar.. level scaling is a horrible idea in RPGs that try to be any sort of serious. Every mob is killable in any area at any level, regardless of skill level, weapons and spells. Just find a mob and shoot it 5 times and its dead

 

[Kortney]

It'll do.

But if I feel rail-roaded to certain areas at any point...I'll fucking gut someone.

I want to be able to go anywhere in the world without running into something way out of my league.

Fucking Daedric Ruins in Morrowind.

Oh hey, you're level 3!

STORM ATRONACH, DAEDROTH.

So you want the game to hold your hand through the whole way, instead? Not having level scaling like this would be like if you could defeat Kefka at level 1 in Final Fantasy VI or something. Strong enemies are strong, you are not. Since when did we gamers become such a bunch of wimps who can't take a little bit of a challenge? (Not saying that to YOU specifically, more a question in general since I've heard so many say the same thing in the past)

On the contrary, I enjoy a challenge. I just hate when they give you an open game world, and then DISCOURAGE exploration until you return at a higher level. I'm at the dungeon now, I want to have a chance in hell at beating it. A Daedroth vs Me and my Iron Broadsword is not even remotely fair, especially when that's only OUTSIDE the dungeon. Lords know what I run into inside!

It's a roleplaying game. Daedra are incredibly powerful beings in TES universe. It would be stupid if you could beat them at level three. You must be powerful to beat them - so stay the hell away from there until you can. It wouldn't make much sense within the universe of the game if a level 3 could beat a daedra would it?

I hate level scaling. It's immersion breaking, pandering nonsense. It ruined Oblivion. I don't mind level scaling like how it was in Fallout 3 or New Vegas. Much less noticeable, so I guess I'm happy.

This news of level scaling has taken this game off my radar.. level scaling is a horrible idea in RPGs that try to be any sort of serious. Every mob is killable in any area at any level, regardless of skill level, weapons and spells. Just find a mob and shoot it 5 times and its dead

The level scaling in Fallout wasn't like that at all. It will be fine.

 

[Danpascooch]

Overall complaint and problem? Do tell, because in fact it's not technically ignoring it, if you haven't FUCKING MENTIONED IT ONCE! It's called "not being able to read your mind"

This entire time you've been talking about how you can beat the game at level two, if that's part of some larger complaint you need to VOCALIZE that for Christ's sake.

You were the one talking about context, so I assumed you had read... the thread.

Whatever, if you're not going to tell me what the bigger complaint is in a way more specific than "poor level design" then I don't have time for this crap

 

[tikalal]

In an open world game you should definitely have scaling. The difficulty should rise as you level and gain more abilities/stuff. You should be forced to use that stuff and what you've learned to the best of your ability in order to remain competitive with what is scaled to you.

It makes much more sense than one area arbitrarily raping you because you haven't reached the magical number they designed it for.

The Death Claws in New Vegas didn't feel arbitrary because they're supposed to be very powerful. A lot of you guys seem to be arguing that you should have one or the other, end of story. The level difference should mean something when it makes sense, and never when it doesn't. Going 100% with one or the other is always going to break immersion because the game code reveals itself one way or another by annoying the player with some stupid limitation on the game that isn't intuitive at all.

 

[spartandude]

Oblivion's level scaling was bullshit. It should die in a fire.

/thread

oblivion's syetem (while i spent too much time playing oblivion) was broken it just didnt give me a sense of victory

I remember in morrowind, at level 1 when treking to balmora (sp) i walked instead of fast travelling and along the way i found a highwayman, i refused to pay but i couldnt ever defeat him at level 1, after 3 tries i had to pay him the money which made me feel like a failiure, 3 levels later i went back and chopped his head off!
i felt like i had achieved something, that i was now actually strong and was able to take on the world (as long as it wasnt a dungeon). oblivion lacked this. i really wish that the next one doesnt or at least the level scaling is much more improved.

 

[spartandude]

In an open world game you should definitely have scaling. The difficulty should rise as you level and gain more abilities/stuff. You should be forced to use that stuff and what you've learned to the best of your ability in order to remain competitive with what is scaled to you.

It makes much more sense than one area arbitrarily raping you because you haven't reached the magical number they designed it for.

The Death Claws in New Vegas didn't feel arbitrary because they're supposed to be very powerful. A lot of you guys seem to be arguing that you should have one or the other, end of story. The level difference should mean something when it makes sense, and never when it doesn't. Going 100% with one or the other is always going to break immersion because the game code reveals itself one way or another by annoying the player with some stupid limitation on the game that isn't intuitive at all.

as you level up and become stronger the challenge should increase? im not sure i follow you on that one.

i have to say i actually disagree with your post. having a dungeon or a region filled with high level monsters actually creates imersion. if i can go anywhere from the word go and if the game got harder as i leveled up, why would i want to level up at all?

 

[Critical_Sneeze]

...
Whatever, if you're not going to tell me what the bigger complaint is in a way more specific than "poor level design" then I don't have time for this crap

I only skim read your conversation and even I know what his complaint is. I like to sum it up like this.

By the game's definitions, someone who is an "apprentice" of near enough everything (like, say, sword fighting) should not be able to swing said sword and save the world. Surely it makes sense that someone who's crap at fighting can't defeat those heavily armoured, highly skilled fellas from the hell pit.

 

[tikalal]

In an open world game you should definitely have scaling. The difficulty should rise as you level and gain more abilities/stuff. You should be forced to use that stuff and what you've learned to the best of your ability in order to remain competitive with what is scaled to you.

It makes much more sense than one area arbitrarily raping you because you haven't reached the magical number they designed it for.

The Death Claws in New Vegas didn't feel arbitrary because they're supposed to be very powerful. A lot of you guys seem to be arguing that you should have one or the other, end of story. The level difference should mean something when it makes sense, and never when it doesn't. Going 100% with one or the other is always going to break immersion because the game code reveals itself one way or another by annoying the player with some stupid limitation on the game that isn't intuitive at all.

as you level up and become stronger the challenge should increase? im not sure i follow you on that one.

i have to say i actually disagree with your post. having a dungeon or a region filled with high level monsters actually creates imersion. if i can go anywhere from the word go and if the game got harder as i leveled up, why would i want to level up at all?

It should increase at the same difficulty curve you would get from any other game, except for places where much stronger enemies make sense. I still feel like a lot of people want either only scaling with the exact same difficulty throughout the game, or pure levelling based mostly on arbitrary things.

My point is that they should be combined.

 

[spartandude]

In an open world game you should definitely have scaling. The difficulty should rise as you level and gain more abilities/stuff. You should be forced to use that stuff and what you've learned to the best of your ability in order to remain competitive with what is scaled to you.

It makes much more sense than one area arbitrarily raping you because you haven't reached the magical number they designed it for.

The Death Claws in New Vegas didn't feel arbitrary because they're supposed to be very powerful. A lot of you guys seem to be arguing that you should have one or the other, end of story. The level difference should mean something when it makes sense, and never when it doesn't. Going 100% with one or the other is always going to break immersion because the game code reveals itself one way or another by annoying the player with some stupid limitation on the game that isn't intuitive at all.

as you level up and become stronger the challenge should increase? im not sure i follow you on that one.

i have to say i actually disagree with your post. having a dungeon or a region filled with high level monsters actually creates imersion. if i can go anywhere from the word go and if the game got harder as i leveled up, why would i want to level up at all?

It should increase at the same difficulty curve you would get from any other game, except for places where much stronger enemies make sense. I still feel like a lot of people want either only scaling with the exact same difficulty throughout the game, or pure levelling based mostly on arbitrary things.

My point is that they should be combined.

oh i get what your saying now

tbh i still disagree with it, im one of the people that feel its should be no level scaling, but il take a fallout system over oblivions without second thoughts

 

[Altorin]

I don't really care how I level up, I just like to play the game. What do people not like about Level Scaling though??

Apparently, RPGs shouldn't give the player a consistent challenge, and you should be an over-powered bastard at the end game, or something. Grinding through tough spots should also totally be an option, too. And Bandits look silly in Glass Armor or whatever.

My issue with the scaling levels in oblivion is that it is NOT a consistent challenge.
My experience with the game was that I was enjoying it so much, and taking my sweet ass time that by the time I got to around level 60, the main quest was simply impossible -period- with the character I tried to build...never did actually finish the game.
Meanwhile, my dad who is an extremely unskilled gamer whizzed his way past the main story and final boss at level 6.
Level fucking 6.

The fact that the game seemed to be punishing me for playing the game more seemed wrong. It's not that I wanted to be an overpowered bastard, on the contrary I love a good challenge. But when you level your character up so high that the game becomes irreversibly impossible, there is a problem (coming from a guy who has finished 2 playthroughs of Demon's Souls).

Level 60? Is it even possible to get that high without modding/cheating?

(BTW, there is a difficulty slider)

you can get to about 300 if you try to go for max level.

Basic how to

- get all of your skills to 100 before you sleep (make sure that you do the anvil mage's quest prior to starting your grind, it requires a sleep) - when I did this, I did ALL of my levelling before leaving the original sewers (yup, spent 13 hours in there training skills), was a bad idea as I gained a level and lost an extra half level through training because of it.
- Make 3 spells that lower one of your major skills by 100 for 5 seconds
- Use said spells to lower your skill to or below zero
- Train it 5 times at a trainer
- Sleep

Once your skill breaks 255 it will reset to 1. Level it manually, and then repeat the earlier process

That alone will get you to 80-100 iirc, and that's completely legit. The next part is a bit less so.

Later, you can get books that raise your skills. There are a couple glitches in the game that can allow you to dupe them (and they aren't the normal dupe methods, as the books cannot be dropped) Dupe yourself up a bunch of them, and just go to town... honestly, you can get your level as high as you want this way, but once you start, I don't think you can dupe it anymore, so once you stop, that's where your level is.

Also note that as soon as your stats all reach 100, you won't level anymore, regardless of your skill raises.

 

[Fooz]

well seeing as i love Fallout im looking forward to it, i absolutely love games like oblivion and fallout