Skyrim: Same button-mashing level system as before?

[spartan231490]

Played Oblivion. Liked it; hated the leveling system. I should NOT have to sit in a corner blocking with my shield while a giant rat attacks me over and over in order to raise my "endurance" trait. I should NOT have to raise my intelligence, etc., by button-mashing low-level spells before I "level" my character. I hated that about Oblivion - if I started getting close to "leveling" and my "attributes" weren't maxed out to +5 each, especially in the first 10-20 levels or so, I felt compelled to sit there and "make the most out of my level" by mashing the "Minor detect life" spell or whatever... over... and over... and over...

So, is Skyrim going to be doing this as well? Have they released anything on the leveling system yet? Because, truth be told, that would be enough for me to pass on Skyrim until it's on sale through Steam as a GOTY edition or something. I'm not paying for a game when it comes out just to be frustrated like that again, and I might never pick it up at all.

If, however, they fixed the leveling system so that you don't have to "manage" how quickly you level to gain attribute points based on minor/major skills, I'd be happy to play it.

The leveling system was just awful. It ruined a perfectly wonderful CRPG for me.

The leveling system is new. You don't have class skills anymore, but I haven't heard much about it else. The higher the skill the more it counts towards your level but I don't know how it will effect attribute increase. I agree with u and think the level system should have been improved and hope it has but i haven't heard much about it.

 

[mike1921]

. you might have a point if I thought you were claiming I liked mayonnaise..

Well I am reporting you. You are either trolling or have no business posting without adult supervision. But just incase

It was you who said there was a specific way of playing that meant you didnt have to have all 5s AND that I was doing it, you quite clearly state that you know what my interests are directly before the "sword and shield accusation".

No, I implied there were specific WAYS of playing that you didn't have all 3s (you don't need all 5s all you need is 3s). When was it said that there was a single way.

You appear to have dropped your argument here... care to drop the semantics and get back to the point?

No, this is not semantics. This is your whole entire fucking complaint. That I claimed to know something about the way you played the game. When did I claim that I know the combination(s) of interests that get you to level on par with the enemies? I never claimed to know anything about the way you played.

Also, telling someone to drop semantics when the whole point has been a misunderstanding (that is probably just manufactured troll shit) is another sign of someone who I am surprised is capable of breathing.

I already made my argument that you ignored by going "LOL I'M A MASTER!!!" like a fucking child. Like I said, you will not level properly if the way you're interested in playing doesn't make you level the right way. Then you decided to jump in like a tool and talk about how skilled you are even though it was obvious if you fucking READ WHAT I SAID that it has nothing to do with skill and thus any claim of mastery is incompatible as a response.

 

[Avatar Roku]

. you might have a point if I thought you were claiming I liked mayonnaise..

Well I am reporting you. You are either trolling or have no business posting without adult supervision. But just incase

It was you who said there was a specific way of playing that meant you didnt have to have all 5s AND that I was doing it, you quite clearly state that you know what my interests are directly before the "sword and shield accusation".

No, I implied there were specific WAYS of playing that you didn't have all 3s (you don't need all 5s all you need is 3s). When was it said that there was a single way.

You appear to have dropped your argument here... care to drop the semantics and get back to the point?

No, this is not semantics. This is your whole entire fucking complaint. That I claimed to know something about the way you played the game. When did I claim that I know the combination(s) of interests that get you to level on par with the enemies? I never claimed to know anything about the way you played.

Also, telling someone to drop semantics when the whole point has been a misunderstanding (that is probably just manufactured troll shit) is another sign of someone who I am surprised is capable of breathing.

I already made my argument that you ignored by going "LOL I'M A MASTER!!!" like a fucking child. Like I said, you will not level properly if the way you're interested in playing doesn't make you level the right way. Then you decided to jump in like a tool and talk about how skilled you are even though it was obvious if you fucking READ WHAT I SAID that it has nothing to do with skill and thus any claim of mastery is incompatible as a response.

. you might have a point if I thought you were claiming I liked mayonnaise..

Well I am reporting you. You are either trolling or have no business posting without adult supervision. But just incase

It was you who said there was a specific way of playing that meant you didnt have to have all 5s AND that I was doing it, you quite clearly state that you know what my interests are directly before the "sword and shield accusation".

No, I implied there were specific WAYS of playing that you didn't have all 3s (you don't need all 5s all you need is 3s). When was it said that there was a single way.

You appear to have dropped your argument here... care to drop the semantics and get back to the point?

Both of you, kindly shut up. Neither of you is doing your side any credit and I'm getting a bit depressed listening to this constant bickering.

 

[Vault boy Eddie]

I think I remember seeing an article where the devs said it was more or less the same. Hopefully there's some improvements tho.

 

[kortin]

Honestly, the oblivion leveling system seamlessly entwined itself into my gameplay. I'm not normally one for leveling off skills (alchemy, armorer, etc) I like leveling up my combat skills. I run around with my Dawn/Duskfang and slice shit up, then i blast it with my awesome spell I made myself. If I'm feeling sneaky, i'll throw my dark brotherhood robe on and sneak around with a bow and arrow killing stuff in 1 shot to the head.

I can see where it can get annoying if you try to level the off skills, but really, thats what multiple characters are for. I have 2 or 3 characters. 1 of them is a sneaky assassin type, 1 is more of a mix between sneaky and upfront, and the last one I charge into battle swinging. My assassin is skilled in alchemy (for poisons on the off chance that my arrow doesn't insta-kill) while my mix char has some restoration points. My warrior one has skills in basically any weapon, heavy armor, and thats pretty much it.

 

[DayDark]

I'm quite looking forward to the leveling in Skyrim. The fact that there's no longer the whole +5+3+2+1 thing going on, is quite refreshing. I also like the thing about using skills of high levels, contributes more to gaining another overall level, this encourages specialization, and "punishes" the one who wants too much of everything, because he will level slower. Good replay value. The fact that there is +280 perks (if we include upgrades to perks), but that we can at max, only choose 50 of them, also means that your first character is highly likely to not be anything like your second character.

 

[mike1921]

No, this is not semantics. This is your whole entire fucking complaint. That I claimed to know something about the way you played the game. When did I claim that I know the combination(s) of interests that get you to level on par with the enemies? I never claimed to know anything about the way you played.

Also, telling someone to drop semantics when the whole point has been a misunderstanding (that is probably just manufactured troll shit) is another sign of someone who I am surprised is capable of breathing.

I already made my argument that you ignored by going "LOL I'M A MASTER!!!" like a fucking child. Like I said, you will not level properly if the way you're interested in playing doesn't make you level the right way. Then you decided to jump in like a tool and talk about how skilled you are even though it was obvious if you fucking READ WHAT I SAID that it has nothing to do with skill and thus any claim of mastery is incompatible as a response.

"No, just that you're interests allign in a way that make the game easier" - Now take in to consideration that at no point prior (Or after, for that matter.) to this had I said anything about my interests OH and you are right... this isnt semantics, you are flat out wrong. You never stated or implied there are WAYS to make the game easier, you stated there was ONE way and that is the one I quoted above. Your argument is entirely based on false assumptions and poorly constructed sentences.

How about you fucking read.

You did play in a way that you came out leveled along with the enemies. You're not aarguing this.

It doesn't matter if I know anything about your interests, infact it wouldn't even help because quite honestly I am not making a new character to find out every way you can possibly play without grinding to come out decently level. All I need to assume is that your interests are in game, which is entirely reasonable to assume given that you played the game.

implied there are WAYS to make the game easier, you stated there was ONE way and that is the one I quoted above

No I fucking didn't I gave an example. Man I hope to god you get banned I'm way too pissed off from this troll for me to be satisfied before I see a ban. The only thing that can possibly be minsconstrued by the mind of someone mentally competent states the exact opposite, that there is only one way to end up underleveled. See here

if you play a certain way you will just be at a point where everything feels like an invincible wall of steel you're hacking away by level 20.

 

[TheEldestScroll]

all fixed. no level scaling, and the perk based skill system will remove any need for grinding. its gonna be great if they deliver on their promises.

 

[Kinguendo]

No, this is not semantics. This is your whole entire fucking complaint. That I claimed to know something about the way you played the game. When did I claim that I know the combination(s) of interests that get you to level on par with the enemies? I never claimed to know anything about the way you played.

Also, telling someone to drop semantics when the whole point has been a misunderstanding (that is probably just manufactured troll shit) is another sign of someone who I am surprised is capable of breathing.

I already made my argument that you ignored by going "LOL I'M A MASTER!!!" like a fucking child. Like I said, you will not level properly if the way you're interested in playing doesn't make you level the right way. Then you decided to jump in like a tool and talk about how skilled you are even though it was obvious if you fucking READ WHAT I SAID that it has nothing to do with skill and thus any claim of mastery is incompatible as a response.

"No, just that you're interests allign in a way that make the game easier" - Now take in to consideration that at no point prior (Or after, for that matter.) to this had I said anything about my interests OH and you are right... this isnt semantics, you are flat out wrong. You never stated or implied there are WAYS to make the game easier, you stated there was ONE way and that is the one I quoted above. Your argument is entirely based on false assumptions and poorly constructed sentences.

How about you fucking read.

You did play in a way that you came out leveled along with the enemies. You're not aarguing this.

It doesn't matter if I know anything about your interests, infact it wouldn't even help because quite honestly I am not making a new character to find out every way you can possibly play without grinding to come out decently level. All I need to assume is that your interests are in game, which is entirely reasonable to assume given that you played the game.

implied there are WAYS to make the game easier, you stated there was ONE way and that is the one I quoted above

No I fucking didn't I gave an example. Man I hope to god you get banned I'm way too pissed off from this troll for me to be satisfied before I see a ban. The only thing that can possibly be minsconstrued by the mind of someone mentally competent states the exact opposite, that there is only one way to end up underleveled. See here

if you play a certain way you will just be at a point where everything feels like an invincible wall of steel you're hacking away by level 20.

Of course it does, you are assuming that I played differently to the people who struggled because of your earlier outburst against the word "skill". You are assuming I didnt play exactly the same way as this hypothetical "wall of steel... level 20... etc.".

And no you didnt give an example, you stated that my interests made it easier for me... there was no implication here, you are flat out stating that you know my interests and saying that because I didnt have as much trouble as other people therefore I must not be playing it the same way as them and for all you know I could have been playing it EXACLTY the same way as you prior hypothetical about the invincible wall... so in that case the way I am playing is making it both easier and near impossible. This is the gaming equivalent of Shrodingers Cat.

 

[mike1921]

No, this is not semantics. This is your whole entire fucking complaint. That I claimed to know something about the way you played the game. When did I claim that I know the combination(s) of interests that get you to level on par with the enemies? I never claimed to know anything about the way you played.

Also, telling someone to drop semantics when the whole point has been a misunderstanding (that is probably just manufactured troll shit) is another sign of someone who I am surprised is capable of breathing.

I already made my argument that you ignored by going "LOL I'M A MASTER!!!" like a fucking child. Like I said, you will not level properly if the way you're interested in playing doesn't make you level the right way. Then you decided to jump in like a tool and talk about how skilled you are even though it was obvious if you fucking READ WHAT I SAID that it has nothing to do with skill and thus any claim of mastery is incompatible as a response.

"No, just that you're interests allign in a way that make the game easier" - Now take in to consideration that at no point prior (Or after, for that matter.) to this had I said anything about my interests OH and you are right... this isnt semantics, you are flat out wrong. You never stated or implied there are WAYS to make the game easier, you stated there was ONE way and that is the one I quoted above. Your argument is entirely based on false assumptions and poorly constructed sentences.

How about you fucking read.

You did play in a way that you came out leveled along with the enemies. You're not aarguing this.

It doesn't matter if I know anything about your interests, infact it wouldn't even help because quite honestly I am not making a new character to find out every way you can possibly play without grinding to come out decently level. All I need to assume is that your interests are in game, which is entirely reasonable to assume given that you played the game.

implied there are WAYS to make the game easier, you stated there was ONE way and that is the one I quoted above

No I fucking didn't I gave an example. Man I hope to god you get banned I'm way too pissed off from this troll for me to be satisfied before I see a ban. The only thing that can possibly be minsconstrued by the mind of someone mentally competent states the exact opposite, that there is only one way to end up underleveled. See here

if you play a certain way you will just be at a point where everything feels like an invincible wall of steel you're hacking away by level 20.

Of course it does, you are assuming that I played differently to the people who struggled because of your earlier outburst against the word "skill". You are assuming I didnt play exactly the same way as this hypothetical "wall of steel... level 20... etc.".

And no you didnt give an example, you stated that my interests made it easier for me... there was no implication here, you are flat out stating that you know my interests and saying that because I didnt have as much trouble as other people therefore I must not be playing it the same way as them and for all you know I could have been playing it EXACLTY the same way as you prior hypothetical about the invincible wall... so in that case the way I am playing is making it both easier and near impossible. This is the gaming equivalent of Shrodingers Cat.

No, I am not stating I know anything about your interests because I don't know which ones make the game easier. For all I know they're just mine but instead of destruction magic you took conjureror (I AM GIVING AN EXAMPLE, I AM NOT STATING YOU TOOK CONJURATION MAGIC)

If you're playing it the same way as I was a single zombie takes 20 minutes to defeat. Here's the first assumption I will state about your interest ,I guarantee you that you didn't. You weren't fighting invincible walls of bricks as literally every enemy.

 

[Tax_Document]

Oblivion had the problem with the leveling enemies. With the result that you had to get the maximum out of every level, and you HAD to have some focus on combat-skills, or else the whole world would get more effective than you at fighting.
Morrowind had the same problem but with no leveling enemies (you fought the same cliff-racers still at level EPIC) so there was no need to rush your combat skills.

I pray to the gaming gods that they dont do the same mistake in Skyrim. They said they had learned.

They're not, it is a zone-based thing now, ye' know, Frost Giants on mountain, Forest Trolls in Forest.

 

[Hyper-space]

It sounds like you intentionally made it into a grind fest. That system has been in TES for some time now, I doubt it will be changing in Skyrim, though I'm not going to rule it out after seeing the revamped skill system.

I wanted to maximize my attributes so at level 10 I wasn't getting creamed by other level 10 critters. I tried playing through on normal difficulty just leveling the way I liked and I found that certain things I used - alchemy, for example - could NOT be major skills because they caused me to level much, much too fast.

Well then the grind isn't the problem, it's a symptom. You were made to grind because of the level-scaling, something that I didn't like at all. Punish me for doing well in the game? Fine, I'll beat the game on level 1 and show you who's boss.

But still, you are the one turning it into a grind-fest. I actually played the game instead of thinking about MIN-MAX'ing all of my stats, and guess what? it wasn't a grind-fest because i did what i wanted, instead of treating it as world of warcraft.

 

[YawningAngel]

There's nothing wrong with Oblivion's levelling system, it just so happens that trying to raise your stats artificially is boring. The OP could solve this problem by just using the game's console with much the same effect.

 

[Hiphophippo]

And please don't tell me the C I've seen people keep putting in front of RPG stands for "combat".

It stands for computer, I believe. Which is arrogant, imo.

Maybe I'm old (I am) but CRPG always referred to video game rpgs whereas RPG referred to tabletop rpgs. At least to me. Nothing arrogant about it on my side of the computer. The term may have evolved into something else over the years but I can assure you that's where it started.

edit

Also, as I read the rest of the thread I see this has already been covered. We'll take my post as a bullet point to the previous ones then eh? heh.

 

[Spacewolf]

the bit i didnt like about oblivion was that killing an enamy often felt like trying to cut down a tree especially noticable in bears where you could be hacking/stabbing it for ages before it died and it obviously wasnt wearing armour

 

[Therumancer]

Played Oblivion. Liked it; hated the leveling system. I should NOT have to sit in a corner blocking with my shield while a giant rat attacks me over and over in order to raise my "endurance" trait. I should NOT have to raise my intelligence, etc., by button-mashing low-level spells before I "level" my character. I hated that about Oblivion - if I started getting close to "leveling" and my "attributes" weren't maxed out to +5 each, especially in the first 10-20 levels or so, I felt compelled to sit there and "make the most out of my level" by mashing the "Minor detect life" spell or whatever... over... and over... and over...

So, is Skyrim going to be doing this as well? Have they released anything on the leveling system yet? Because, truth be told, that would be enough for me to pass on Skyrim until it's on sale through Steam as a GOTY edition or something. I'm not paying for a game when it comes out just to be frustrated like that again, and I might never pick it up at all.

If, however, they fixed the leveling system so that you don't have to "manage" how quickly you level to gain attribute points based on minor/major skills, I'd be happy to play it.

The leveling system was just awful. It ruined a perfectly wonderful CRPG for me.

Well, to be fair this is more a problem with gamers than the system itself. The idea was actually to have a game where the skills you used went up slowly over time as you played, and based on what you were actually using. If you just played the game straight out, there wouldn't be an issue. The auto-scaling of encounters also meant that you wouldn't be punished for grinding your character up in levels.

I don't think the level scaling aspect of things worked, but the way skills increased was absolutly fine in both concept and implementation.

There was no real need for you to sit there and grind block on a rat unless you were trying to raise levels using it, or "cheez" the game by playing entirely with disproportionatly powerful miscelleneous skills while remaining at a low level so the monsters would remain trivial.

I get what your saying, but chances are that catering to someone who grinded like that for power, by simply making characrters uber a lot more easily, would wind up upsetting a lot of the people who felt that the game was far too easy to begin with.

The thing is that if you don't get satisfaction from playing the system rather than the game, there is no real reason to grind up ridiculously exploitive characters.

Me, personally, I can have fun either as intended, or by building "uberman".

Also, I'll say flat out that the smart grind-maniacs exploited the tutorial and did most of their grinding for things like block or casting a few low level spells there, before you finally selected your major and minor skills. That way they could set things up how they wanted and say begin any character with an outrageous levle of block skill if they so chose. Meaning that the grind was something you only had to do ONCE since you could always reload before leaving the sewers and set up a new character with those grinded skills from the exit (changing race, gender, stat and skill selections, etc...).

 

[Ellen of Kitten]

It sounds like you intentionally made it into a grind fest. That system has been in TES for some time now, I doubt it will be changing in Skyrim, though I'm not going to rule it out after seeing the revamped skill system.

I share much of the OP's concerns. The first time I played, I just did whatever and took my levels where they came. Before to long, every 1 vs 1 fight was equally matched, and anything with any serious bite was nearly always fatal. God forbid I ever had to fight more than one enemy, and I'd have to skip dungeons all together if they were filled with (commonly) undead; my poisons wouldn't work on them after all causing me to lose what little edge I had.

When I caught on that the monsters leveled with me, and that my traits didn't always level equally, I realized I could manage my leveling, and to insure that the game wouldn't unbalance in the higher levels, I'd keep track of where I was in the current level scheme. I found an effective way of helping was to tailor a class where the skills I'd need to level were the ones most difficult to level; Athletics, and acrobatics, for example. Hand to Hand because it was a skill I never used. If I was a mage, I'd toss heavy armor in there cause I'd never be wearing heavy armor (not entirely true). Anyway, you get the point. I did it this way so that the enemies wouldn't out class me to fast, and I could enjoy the game.

Down side was that the skills I did want to use were low level right off the bat, and I'd have to practice/train them up with the quickness, because they were pathetic. Spamming Cure Minor Wounds to raise my restoration past a lvl 15 (out of 100) just so I could get a better but still weak healing spell sucked. But it was still better than the alternative.

Anyway, I'm betting the folks behind Oblivion learned from their folly. Fallout 3 showed me that much. So I'm not worried. I will be keeping my ears open though... and waiting for the GOTY edition, since I know a zillion DLC thingies will come out in the first year or two.