So according to some feminists, this anti-rape ad campaign is sexist

[Joshic Shin]

"Alcohol is definitely a huge factor when it comes to sexual assault, but in no circumstances is it ever the victim's fault" I see these two as kind of contradictory, take some responsibility ... if I leave my front door open and I get robbed, it is partly my fault for doing that.

Should I have to lock my door? No 'cos everybody should be decent enough not to steal but people do steal and people do rape, so stop being stupid and getting so boozed up you become a target!

Using the same analogy, imagine if the police showed up to my flat.

"was your door locked?"
"no"
"why?"
"people should be decent enough not to rob me"
" ....... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!"

"were you drunk?"
"yes"
"ok, were you wearing reveling clothes?"
"yes"
"ok, were you leading guys on only to turn them away?"
"yes"
"ok, were you alone in a dark alley?"
"yes"
"damn those rapists! Picking on a poor innocent woman ..."

I am not saying they were asking for it or encouraging it but they made themselves a target.

You are saying that they were asking for it though. That's the point of your preceding text, that since they did all those things they should have known better.

Let's go back to that robbery example though. If I leave my front door unlock, that does not mean you can just walk into my house, that is still a crime. Do I now have to lock ever door, every window, and secure every possible avenue of entrance into my house to fit your idea of doing what I should to avoid being robbed? Of course not, robbery is robbery, no matter the circumstances. One is a little dumber than the other, sure, but it doesn't mean we laugh in the face of the person who was just robbed.

So, a woman goes drinking with her friends. She gets really drunk and one of her guy friends decides that this is his chance to get it with her. She is too drunk to realize what is going on and we have a potential rape. That, Omega616, is how most rapes happen. Most rapists are friends of the victim, not some stranger in a dark alley turned on by the girl's "obviously asking for it" clothing.

 

[Xin Baixiang]

It's sexist because rape can happen to men and...where's the ad telling men to watch what they drink so that they can say 'no'?

It's in the same location as the ads telling people that men deserve the chance to be fathers. Or the posters saying that women belittling their husbands is spousal abuse. Or the TV commercials showing the man being raped and abused for eight years by someone, then told that he should be proud that he got to have sex.

But that's not the narrative we're selling.

 

[remnant_phoenix]

It's not "blaming the victim" to teach women rape awareness and prevention anymore than telling people to lock their doors and buy an alarm is blaming the victim of a burglary. Rape, like murder, theft, or any other crime, will never go away completely, so it is important for young women to learn how to protect themselves.

Well played. This is what we call "logic" and it often escapes the grasp of any and all extremist ___________ists in the world, as they would rather export anti-opponent rhetoric than be a part of a practical solution.

 

[LadyRhian]

I'm not strawmanning, what I'm doing is saying that you're asking that they take precautions, but then saying that you shouldn't use posters or ads to teach those precautions.

I'm not saying that at all. Women get raped no matter what they do, how they dress or how they look or where they go. I'm saying that just saying, "Oh, you shouldn't have dressed like that/had a drink/gone to that party." is blaming the victim. People do that so they think that if people just stopped doing those things, women would stop getting raped, and that's just not the case. I think there needs to be information given to both sides- men on what constitutes rape and women on how to lessen their chances of being raped- but they also need to be told that even if they do none of these "questionable" things, they can still get raped. Not blaming women based on what they wore or how much they drunk is like putting a Band-Aid on a gushing arterial wound. It might be a start, but it's not enough.

De-stigmatizing what women wear as an excuse for their being raped is a good start. Rape is the only crime where the clothing choice of the victim has any bearing on the outcome of prosecution for the crime. It's an excuse to blame and shame the victim, and that's not right. You don't choose to get raped any more than you choose to get murdered.

 

[Xin Baixiang]

I'm not strawmanning, what I'm doing is saying that you're asking that they take precautions, but then saying that you shouldn't use posters or ads to teach those precautions.

I'm not saying that at all. Women get raped no matter what they do, how they dress or how they look or where they go. I'm saying that just saying, "Oh, you shouldn't have dressed like that/had a drink/gone to that party." is blaming the victim. People do that so they think that if people just stopped doing those things, women would stop getting raped, and that's just not the case. I think there needs to be information given to both sides- men on what constitutes rape and women on how to lessen their chances of being raped- but they also need to be told that even if they do none of these "questionable" things, they can still get raped. Not blaming women based on what they wore or how much they drunk is like putting a Band-Aid on a gushing arterial wound. It might be a start, but it's not enough.

De-stigmatizing what women wear as an excuse for their being raped is a good start. Rape is the only crime where the clothing choice of the victim has any bearing on the outcome of prosecution for the crime. It's an excuse to blame and shame the victim, and that's not right. You don't choose to get raped any more than you choose to get murdered.

And there's still the gendered language you're using that's causing me to assume that you are only seeing one side of the problem. I can't place a lot of credibility on thoughts that are biased from the get go.

 

[Wintermoot]

according to feminists having a Y chromosome is sexist
girls ar more likely to be raped then men and alcohol has some influence on that.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Yes, that is a quote from the report. Of something they have defined seperately to rape, and thus doesn't form part of their rape statistics.

I beg pardon, I didn't see that. Could you provide a direct quote from the article explaining this?

In the "Full report" pdf, pages 17 and 18.

Spoiler: Spoilered for space

How NISVS Measured Sexual Violence
Five types of sexual violence were measured in NISVS. These include acts of rape (forced penetration), and types of sexual violence other than rape.
? Rape is defined as any completed or attempted unwanted vaginal (for women), oral, or anal penetration through the use of physical force (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threats to physically harm and includes times when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent. Rape is separated into three types, completed forced penetration, attempted forced penetration, and completed alcohol or drug facilitated penetration.
- -Among women, rape includes vaginal, oral, or anal penetration by a male using his penis. It also includes vaginal or anal penetration by a male or female using their fingers or an object.
- -Among men, rape includes oral or anal penetration by a male using his penis. It also includes anal penetration by a male or female using their fingers or an object.
? Being made to penetrate someone else includes times when the victim was made to, or there was an attempt to make them, sexually penetrate someone without the victim?s consent because the victim was physically forced (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threatened with physical harm, or when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.
- -Among women, this behavior reflects a female being made to orally penetrate another female?s vagina or anus.
- -Among men, being made to penetrate someone else could have occurred in multiple ways: being made to vaginally penetrate a female using one?s own penis; orally penetrating a female?s vagina or anus; anally penetrating a male or female; or being made to receive oral sex from a male or female. It also includes female perpetrators attempting to force male victims to penetrate them, though it did not happen.
? Sexual coercion is defined as unwanted sexual penetration that occurs after a person is pressured in a nonphysical way. In NISVS, sexual coercion refers to unwanted vaginal, oral, or anal sex after being pressured in ways that included being worn down by someone who repeatedly asked for sex or showed they were unhappy; feeling pressured by being lied to, being told promises that were untrue, having someone threaten to end a relationship or spread rumors; and sexual pressure due to someone using their influence or authority.
? Unwanted sexual contact is defined as unwanted sexual experiences involving touch but not sexual penetration, such as being kissed in a sexual way, or having sexual body parts fondled or grabbed.
? Non-contact unwanted sexual experiences are those unwanted experiences that do not involve any touching or penetration, including someone exposing their sexual body parts, flashing, or masturbating in front of the victim, someone making a victim show his or her body parts, someone making a victim look at or participate in sexual photos or movies, or someone harassing the victim in a public place in a way that made the victim feel unsafe.

 

[Xin Baixiang]

according to feminists having a Y chromosome is sexist
girls ar more likely to be raped then men and alcohol has some influence on that.

Girls are not more likely to be raped than men. Men do not report rape so often it is painful to even contemplate. There is not, and will never be, enough evidence to support any gender bias.

 

[Smeggs]

Although I think it's totally ridiculous, I can see where they're coming from after looking at the ad. Seems like the ad is saying, "Your friend's a slut, so keep an eye on her when you're out partying."

Not disagreeing with OP, just saying they probably could have worded their ad a bit better.

 

[thom_cat_]

according to feminists having a Y chromosome is sexist
girls ar more likely to be raped then men and alcohol has some influence on that.

According to misogynists you mean?

 

[LadyRhian]

The statistic you are using is for "forcible rape", not rape as a whole. Your link even says so. Sorry, but that';s not the same thing, and your rant here is unfounded. And all your "NOT RAPE" declarations ARE RAPE. Just not "forcible rape". So I see equivocation on your part over statistics.

Let me get this straight. If I ask a woman to give me oral sex multiple times and she complies, I just raped her?

That is so absolutely insulting to every woman that has been forcibly held down against her will and penetrated. You would seriously compare the two? They are the same? The battered victim and the woman that gives in are the same?

That's, frankly, disgusting.

Yes. Hounding someone for any kind ofsex is disgusting. Especially if she is in a relationship with you, "No" should mean "No". Not all rapes are forcible. And they can lead to the same feelings of shame and disgust.

I like the idea of them telling people not to drink to the point of stupidity, call me jaded but because at that point you are just as responsible for what you do as the drunk driver who crashes their car.

I am sure there are some cases where women are taken advantage of because they are drunk, but there are also a disgusting number that will regret a decision they made while they are drunk and scream rape a day after the fact, which I have seen happen to a friend of mine.

(sarcasm) And your friend should have known better than to take someone who'd been drinking to bed-also a stupid decision on his own part. He should have known he could have been called a rapist when the girl sobered up. (/sarcasm) It's no better to blame the man for this than the woman, isn't it? And yet, men have been armchair quarterbacking the decisions of women who got raped for a long time now.

And everything any man has ever done is perfect fuel to ignore what men say now as "victim-blaming", right?

Perhaps you missed the point where I was sarcastically doing what other posters here have done, armchair-quarterbacking the man's decisions. Like I said, how much does it sting when it's applied to the male instead of the female. Quite a lot, from your reaction. And yet, blaming the woman for drinking or wearing provocative clothing is just the same. I just turned it around on the man, Obviously, if you don't like it when it's applied to a man, why should you do the same to a woman who has been raped? It's equally horrible in both cases. I can see I made my point here rather well.

 

[Labyrinth]

"Alcohol is definitely a huge factor when it comes to sexual assault, but in no circumstances is it ever the victim's fault" I see these two as kind of contradictory, take some responsibility ... if I leave my front door open and I get robbed, it is partly my fault for doing that.

Should I have to lock my door? No 'cos everybody should be decent enough not to steal but people do steal and people do rape, so stop being stupid and getting so boozed up you become a target!

Using the same analogy, imagine if the police showed up to my flat.

"was your door locked?"
"no"
"why?"
"people should be decent enough not to rob me"
" ....... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!"

"were you drunk?"
"yes"
"ok, were you wearing reveling clothes?"
"yes"
"ok, were you leading guys on only to turn them away?"
"yes"
"ok, were you alone in a dark alley?"
"yes"
"damn those rapists! Picking on a poor innocent woman ..."

I am not saying they were asking for it or encouraging it but they made themselves a target.

Let me extend that analogy to show you the problem with it.

"So you were walking at night."
"Yes."
"Wearing a rolex"
"Yes."
"With someone you'd met at a bar and had been talking to for a while."
"Yes."
"They saw what was in your wallet when you were buying drinks?"
"Well, yeah?"
"So why were you surprised when this person you met mugged you? I mean, you should've been more careful."

You see, the vast majority, 70-80 or so % of sexual assaults occur when the perpetrator knows the victim. This can be met at a party, known for years, someone the perpetrator cares for etc. Hell, it can happen within marriages because consent is never automatic.

The reason that feminists have a problem with this as victim blaming is that it doesn't address the root of the problem, which is a wildly unhealthy attitude to consent especially among young people. We've had the "no is no" campaign for a while which is good, but it needs to extend to "yes is yes, and only yes is yes." Not silence, not begruding acquiescence because of perceived favours owed, not semi-conscious quavering. Yes. Consistent, happy and persistent yes, however that is communicated throughout all of the proceedings. That yes does not have to be verbal, it can be communicated through eager and willing participation, it doesn't have to be phrased like that, it can be negotiated beforehand then maintained by the opportunity to use a safe word if that consent is withdrawn, but communication is essential whichever way.

That add says "She couldn't say no." What it should say was "She didn't say yes." This goes for all people involved. There was a case a few years back in Australia where a woman was gang raped in a hotel room. She believes she did say no at one point, drunkenly, passing in and out of consciousness. They didn't stop. This was a football team and became a massive scandal because it laid bare a very problematic culture in the sport and in the wider community.

Personally I don't understand the appeal. Sex when semi-conscious cannot be as good as sex when entirely conscious with eager participants. Ad campaigns doing this are much harder because unless it's a date-rape drug or something similar, I doubt anyone goes out to a party with the idea of "Yeahhhh, I'm gonna totally rape someone tonight. It'll be awesome." The ambiguity is the issue for all parties involved. If people communicate better about consent and are aware of these issues it will mean that there's less fear about becoming a victim, less fear about becoming a perpetrator, fewer difficult and ambiguous cases, and a much healthier culture all around.

 

[Joshic Shin]

Let me get this straight. If I ask a woman to give me oral sex multiple times and she complies, I just raped her?

That is so absolutely insulting to every woman that has been forcibly held down against her will and penetrated. You would seriously compare the two? They are the same? The battered victim and the woman that gives in are the same?

That's, frankly, disgusting.

Well, that depends. Did you ask two, maybe three times? Well then, you are just fine. That's just asking and respecting those no's, but know she's playing hard to get, I guess.

How about ten times, getting increasingly angrier with her? Ah, what do I know. I'm sure that every woman loves being asked repeatedly, day after day, from the same guy, if she will get him off. That's great, and totally not harassment. Or perhaps it is a boyfriend that is saying that if she loved him she would do this one thing, and asking for it again and again. That probably doesn't have any bearing on a woman's thought process.

Anyways, there are different classifications of rape. The type you are thinking of is forcible rape. That is the type where you hold them down and they physically try to fight you. There are other types, just like there is more than just physical abuse. Beating the person down by persistently asking for sex is also rape when they have told you no more than once. Using emotional appeals to get them to do things they don't want to do is also rape.

 

[Xin Baixiang]

The statistic you are using is for "forcible rape", not rape as a whole. Your link even says so. Sorry, but that';s not the same thing, and your rant here is unfounded. And all your "NOT RAPE" declarations ARE RAPE. Just not "forcible rape". So I see equivocation on your part over statistics.

Let me get this straight. If I ask a woman to give me oral sex multiple times and she complies, I just raped her?

That is so absolutely insulting to every woman that has been forcibly held down against her will and penetrated. You would seriously compare the two? They are the same? The battered victim and the woman that gives in are the same?

That's, frankly, disgusting.

Yes. Hounding someone for any kind ofsex is disgusting. Especially if she is in a relationship with you, "No" should mean "No". Not all rapes are forcible. And they can lead to the same feelings of shame and disgust.

I like the idea of them telling people not to drink to the point of stupidity, call me jaded but because at that point you are just as responsible for what you do as the drunk driver who crashes their car.

I am sure there are some cases where women are taken advantage of because they are drunk, but there are also a disgusting number that will regret a decision they made while they are drunk and scream rape a day after the fact, which I have seen happen to a friend of mine.

(sarcasm) And your friend should have known better than to take someone who'd been drinking to bed-also a stupid decision on his own part. He should have known he could have been called a rapist when the girl sobered up. (/sarcasm) It's no better to blame the man for this than the woman, isn't it? And yet, men have been armchair quarterbacking the decisions of women who got raped for a long time now.

And everything any man has ever done is perfect fuel to ignore what men say now as "victim-blaming", right?

Perhaps you missed the point where I was sarcastically doing what other posters here have done, armchair-quarterbacking the man's decisions. Like I said, how much does it sting when it's applied to the male instead of the female. Quite a lot, from your reaction. And yet, blaming the woman for drinking or wearing provocative clothing is just the same. I just turned it around on the man, Obviously, if you don't like it when it's applied to a man, why should you do the same to a woman who has been raped? It's equally horrible in both cases. I can see I made my point here rather well.

Females should be free and are free to wear whatever they want to, as far as I'm concerned. I can honestly state, without lie or equivocation, that I find women of all size, shape, and color attractive. That does not change the fact that I would feel brilliant for wearing assless chaps and no shirt or underwear then getting completely hammerjacked in a bar alone at 0200 in the middle of Baltimore Harbor.

Begging for precautions to be taken and moderation (or at least having friends who would watch after you as you'd watch after them) is the point of the poster. That includes not wearing a dental floss dress everywhere. Life is not fair, and will never be so.

 

[Darkeagle6]

Though it's a bit late considering this thread, I guess a trigger warning is still worth it?

Part of the problem is that many, many people simply don't know much about rape and go along with whatever media representation of it they were exposed to.

This has been said in this topic, but it's worth repeating: Rape is comitted MOST OFTEN by people whom the victim knows. The idea that most rapes are committed in dark alleys by strangers who randomly jump on you does not reflect reality; yes, those kinds of crimes DO happen, but they're not the most common. Rape is not purely a crime of psychopaths;

This has also been said earlier, but all kinds of women (and, yes, also men, whom we must not ignore, though we must also remember that it remains a crime perpetuated primilarily against women)are victims of sexual assault: wether they're judged attractive or unattractive, however they dress, regardless of their age.

The thing is, practically all of the comments in this topic go along the lines of: If you don't fit entirely in the very narrow definition what is considered socially acceptable for women(ie dress code, the way they act, the way they choose to live their sexuality, etc.), you're to blame for being raped. That's pretty fucking horrible.

It is *not* possible to ever be 100% safe from rape (which is a terrifying thought in its own right); people have been assaulted from within their own homes before. And there's no doubt that it's a good idea to teach young girls (heck, everyone) to learn to minize risk. However, telling a woman that she shouldn't dress a certain way, or that she shouldn't be liberal with her sexuality, and that it'll be her fault if she is raped, is not unlike telling homosexual people that they should just act "less gay" if they don't want to be bullied/beaten up/murdered/victim of any hate crime. It's also not unlike blaming someone who was mugged because of whatever circumstance he/she was in when it happened. Fuck that.

Yes, the text on the add says, litteraly, that it's best to watch out for your friends if they're drunk, so that you can all stay safe. But can anyone honestly say that they don't see the implication that the girl on the add "got drunk, so it's her fault"?

Again, teaching girls to be careful isn't, in itself, a bad thing. But we also need to be teaching everyone to be critical of the way sexuality is presented to us. The fact that there are a bunch of people here and everywhere who believe things like "If she dresses like that, she's asking for it" is proof of this. The fact of the matter is, there are people who think that they have a right to some women's bodies, that they're right about it and that they most certainly don't need to ask. Those people aren't all complete sociopaths; it's not a huge stretch to think this is you buy into all the degrading bullshit that's said and shown about women.

Just a bunch of thoughts vomited onto this page, because I get pissed off at seeing people who don't have any understanding of the issue whatsoever acting like they do.

 

[Xmaspast]

Let me get this straight. If I ask a woman to give me oral sex multiple times and she complies, I just raped her?

That is so absolutely insulting to every woman that has been forcibly held down against her will and penetrated. You would seriously compare the two? They are the same? The battered victim and the woman that gives in are the same?

That's, frankly, disgusting.

Well, that depends. Did you ask two, maybe three times? Well then, you are just fine. That's just asking and respecting those no's, but know she's playing hard to get, I guess.

How about ten times, getting increasingly angrier with her? Ah, what do I know. I'm sure that every woman loves being asked repeatedly, day after day, from the same guy, if she will get him off. That's great, and totally not harassment. Or perhaps it is a boyfriend that is saying that if she loved him she would do this one thing, and asking for it again and again. That probably doesn't have any bearing on a woman's thought process.

Anyways, there are different classifications of rape. The type you are thinking of is forcible rape. That is the type where you hold them down and they physically try to fight you. There are other types, just like there is more than just physical abuse. Beating the person down by persistently asking for sex is also rape when they have told you no more than once. Using emotional appeals to get them to do things they don't want to do is also rape.

There's a difference between "No!" and "Unf, nooo baaaaaby." ?as they grind their hips into you?

 

[Stu35]

It's telling women to avoid getting raped as opposed to telling men not to rape.

Men don't need telling not to Rape, we already have something telling us that - the Law.

It's already the 2nd most serious crime after murder. To that end, men who are going to rape, are going to rape regardless of advertisements.

It's making them the problem, not the rapists.

No it's not. It's simply trying to raise a bit of awareness and help women avoid a criminal element in society.

I don't understand why it's not okay to teach women how to look after themselves? I mean, I got taught at a young age not to walk through a Celtic area in a Rangers top. I got taught not to walk through Bradford city wearing an "I Hate Pakis" T-Shirt. These are common sense methods of avoiding death in certain parts of the UK - Should I instead be complaining that I have every right to wear whatever Football top or Slogan I want?

Well... Yeah, because I should be able to wear what I want, where I want... But thats just not the world we live in. Deal with it.

 

[LiquidGrape]

I see a lot of tired robbing analogies in this thread. Let's take that a step further, shall we?

Man: Hello, I'd like to report a mugging.
Officer: A mugging, eh? Where did it take place?
Man: I was walking by 21st and Dundritch Street and a man pulled out a gun and said, "Give me all your money."
Officer: And did you?
Man: Yes, I co-operated.
Officer: So you willingly gave the man your money without fighting back, calling for help or trying to escape?
Man: Well, yes, but I was terrified. I thought he was going to kill me!
Officer: Mmm. But you did co-operate with him. And I've been informed that you're quite a philanthropist, too.
Man: I give to charity, yes.
Officer: So you like to give money away. You make a habit of giving money away.
Man: What does that have to do with this situation?
Officer: You knowingly walked down Dundritch Street in your suit when everyone knows you like to give away money, and then you didn't fight back. It sounds like you gave money to someone, but now you're having after-donation regret. Tell me, do you really want to ruin his life because of your mistake?
Man: This is ridiculous!
Officer: This is a rape analogy. This is what women face every single day when they try to bring their rapists to justice.
Man: Fuck the patriarchy.
Officer: Word.

 

[LadyRhian]

I'm not strawmanning, what I'm doing is saying that you're asking that they take precautions, but then saying that you shouldn't use posters or ads to teach those precautions.

I'm not saying that at all. Women get raped no matter what they do, how they dress or how they look or where they go. I'm saying that just saying, "Oh, you shouldn't have dressed like that/had a drink/gone to that party." is blaming the victim. People do that so they think that if people just stopped doing those things, women would stop getting raped, and that's just not the case. I think there needs to be information given to both sides- men on what constitutes rape and women on how to lessen their chances of being raped- but they also need to be told that even if they do none of these "questionable" things, they can still get raped. Not blaming women based on what they wore or how much they drunk is like putting a Band-Aid on a gushing arterial wound. It might be a start, but it's not enough.

De-stigmatizing what women wear as an excuse for their being raped is a good start. Rape is the only crime where the clothing choice of the victim has any bearing on the outcome of prosecution for the crime. It's an excuse to blame and shame the victim, and that's not right. You don't choose to get raped any more than you choose to get murdered.

And there's still the gendered language you're using that's causing me to assume that you are only seeing one side of the problem. I can't place a lot of credibility on thoughts that are biased from the get go.

If you read my first post here, I didn't mention genders at all. I don't see anyone claiming male rape victims get raped because of what they are wearing, though, or how much they drank. I even said men are less likely to report being raped because of the stigma of being male and being raped. And the reaction of other men who treat them as if it's something funny or something to be poked fun at. "Rape culture" also makes rape of men something shameful. How about your friends who will ask if the girl was just too much for you. Or as less of a man because of it. I don't like rape of anyone, but the conversation here is focussed around the rape of women, and their perceived flaws in going about not being raped. That's why I responded as I did. I think that until we de-stigmatize the decisions of people who have been raped, their dress and so on, we will never really *know* how many people get raped, because coming forward to report it seems to give people free license to judge your life and your decisions- no other crime gets treated like that, really,