So, it looks like the L4D2 boycott will die

[Christemo]

the campaign sounds interesting. im getting L4D2. i want to defeat a tank with a frying pan. they should make an achievement where you had to do that called Fried Muscles.

 

[HEXYDEZiMAL]

I don't care, I'm a PC user and we're getting it for free anyway! /evil laugh!

I assume you're speaking of Left 4 Dead 2 so uh... no. Left 4 Dead 2 is going to be $50 (likely $60 in a box).

You might have some inkling of pirating it, but like L4D1, it will no doubt do all of its matchmaking through Steam, meaning that you won't be playing the best part of Left 4 Dead 2 online with a pirated copy. Steam-involved multiplayer makes game piracy a waste of time.

 

[scnj]

I don't care, I'm a PC user and we're getting it for free anyway! /evil laugh!

I assume you're speaking of Left 4 Dead 2 so uh... no. Left 4 Dead 2 is going to be $50 (likely $60 in a box).

You might have some inkling of pirating it, but like L4D1, it will no doubt do all of its matchmaking through Steam, meaning that you won't be playing the best part of Left 4 Dead 2 online with a pirated copy. Steam-involved multiplayer makes piracy a waste of time.

I think he's referring to the fact that the DLC is free on PC while costing 560 points on the Xbox. Might be wrong though.

 

[T3h Camp3r T3rr0r1st]

I don't care, I'm a PC user and we're getting it for free anyway! /evil laugh!

I assume you're speaking of Left 4 Dead 2 so uh... no. Left 4 Dead 2 is going to be $50 (likely $60 in a box).

You might have some inkling of pirating it, but like L4D1, it will no doubt do all of its matchmaking through Steam, meaning that you won't be playing the best part of Left 4 Dead 2 online with a pirated copy. Steam-involved multiplayer makes piracy a waste of time.

I think he's referring to the fact that the DLC is free on PC while costing 560 points on the Xbox. Might be wrong though.

you're right the other guy's an idiot because we were talking about the DLC!

 

[DigitalJedl]

I don't care, I'm a PC user and we're getting it for free anyway! /evil laugh!

I assume you're speaking of Left 4 Dead 2 so uh... no. Left 4 Dead 2 is going to be $50 (likely $60 in a box).

You might have some inkling of pirating it, but like L4D1, it will no doubt do all of its matchmaking through Steam, meaning that you won't be playing the best part of Left 4 Dead 2 online with a pirated copy. Steam-involved multiplayer makes piracy a waste of time.

I think he's referring to the fact that the DLC is free on PC while costing 560 points on the Xbox. Might be wrong though.

you're right the other guy's an idiot because we were talking about the DLC!

That was necessary to throw that insult there.

Oh, right. /Sarcasm

 

[scnj]

I don't care, I'm a PC user and we're getting it for free anyway! /evil laugh!

I assume you're speaking of Left 4 Dead 2 so uh... no. Left 4 Dead 2 is going to be $50 (likely $60 in a box).

You might have some inkling of pirating it, but like L4D1, it will no doubt do all of its matchmaking through Steam, meaning that you won't be playing the best part of Left 4 Dead 2 online with a pirated copy. Steam-involved multiplayer makes piracy a waste of time.

I think he's referring to the fact that the DLC is free on PC while costing 560 points on the Xbox. Might be wrong though.

you're right the other guy's an idiot because we were talking about the DLC!

He's not an idiot, he misunderstood you. There is absolutely no need for you to insult him.

 

[AfterAscon]

I'm as serious as a heart attack about not buying it. To give an analogy as to how L4D1 has turned out, it's like buying a six of beer, finding out that beer is only in four bottles after being promised a full six, and then Valve not only giving you only a few sips of the additional beer they promised you as incentive to buy it, but half the bottle opener for the original bottles you have over half a year later. Not to mention that your former beer isn't actually beer at all, but water -- the bottle filler had matchmaking problems.

I'm not Valve's battered wife, and last I checked this isn't a feudalistic country, so I owe King Valve no loyalties. If you can take that kind of crap and shell out money for more, more power to you. I value my dollar more than that.

Your analogy is down to perspective. I view it more as Value sold you six bottles of beer with the prospect of free beer later. Now they've decided not to give you as much free beer as they promised. Shock horror!
Value are a business and main objective is to make money. If customers (such as yourslef) aren't going to be loyal to valve, who have a good track record for serving their community, why should they bother supporting these communities?

 

[Crux2]

In fact, it has been confirmed several times that they started working on L4D2 right about when L4D1 dropped, which shows a total lack of planned commitment right from the start.

As someone who likes left 4 dead but isnt really invested in it as a 'proper' fan I'd say that shows a very great deal of commitment. Immediately starting work on a sequel to a new IP before you've had plenty of time to assess its worth? I'd be hard pressed to find a better word other than 'commitment' to describe that.

They might not have been commited to the exact detail-for-detail description of how the franchise was going to expand or move forward, indeed they may have planned to expand L4D1 and then abandoned the idea in a complete turn around in favor of a new game - but in terms of overall commitment to L4D as an idea, as a series, as a genuine attempt to start a new IP I fail to see how they are doing an objectively bad job.

That isnt to say I cant see where the resentment comes from, not all the disgruntled people are morons - it just seems that the morons have the loudest voices. But overall I dont feel any ill will towards valve for going back on what they've said; developing a game and having a plan to turn it into an ongoing series cant be easy and if they need to make changes for whatever reason it may involve going back on things they have already announced - I understand the dilemma (fable is another example of promising and not delivering, and as a teen I was almost heartbroken when TR:AoD was released), but as someone who isnt emotionally invested heavily L4D1 I'm not too bothered about this particular incident.

 

[Kiutu]

What does not live cannot die.

 

[HEXYDEZiMAL]

you're right the other guy's an idiot because we were talking about the DLC!

I wouldn't have paid a cent for the Survival Pack. The only useful thing that came of it was Versus support for Dead Air and Death Toll, which very obviously should've been there in the first place. When I get a hold of Crash Course, or whatever they're calling this new content that they already had, I very much doubt it'll be worth money either. Nothing of value has been released by Valve on the downloadable front for L4D.

Therefore, I wouldn't be too quick to laugh about what you get for free over a 360 user until it actually matters. That's why I assumed you were talking about L4D2, because anybody with the Survival Pack knows that it was practically meaningless.

 

[UncleOvid]

Spoiler: DISCLAIMER

DISCLAIMER: As I've said previously, I don't own and haven't played Left4Dead, but for some reason I'm fascinated by the issue brought up here. In other words, what follows is the unbiased opinion of a disinterested third party (read: off-topic rant by someone who doesn't know what he's talking about).

Seems to me the issue with the boycotters remains: that Valve is insufficiently supporting an incomplete product. Fixing bugs in a "sequel" doesn't really serve customers of the original if the games are separate and presumably incompatible.

Now, should Valve continue to release content for Left4Dead 1, or integrate it with Left4Dead 2, then I would consider the complaints officially addressed. Any further refusal to buy -- on reasons of "principle" at least -- is just holding a grudge.

Of course, I have my own (decidedly negative) views of DLC to begin with, but I've gone into those elsewhere.

Incidentally, has Lycaeus_Wrex seen this? I'm wildly curious what their opinion of this is.

 

[UncleOvid]

As someone who likes left 4 dead but isnt really invested in it as a 'proper' fan I'd say that shows a very great deal of commitment. Immediately starting work on a sequel to a new IP before you've had plenty of time to assess its worth? I'd be hard pressed to find a better word other than 'commitment' to describe that.

They might not have been commited to the exact detail-for-detail description of how the franchise was going to expand or move forward, indeed they may have planned to expand L4D1 and then abandoned the idea in a complete turn around in favor of a new game - but in terms of overall commitment to L4D as an idea, as a series, as a genuine attempt to start a new IP I fail to see how they are doing an objectively bad job.

That isnt to say I cant see where the resentment comes from, not all the disgruntled people are morons - it just seems that the morons have the loudest voices. But overall I dont feel any ill will towards valve for going back on what they've said; developing a game and having a plan to turn it into an ongoing series cant be easy and if they need to make changes for whatever reason it may involve going back on things they have already announced - I understand the dilemma (fable is another example of promising and not delivering, and as a teen I was almost heartbroken when TR:AoD was released), but as someone who isnt emotionally invested heavily L4D1 I'm not too bothered about this particular incident.

Fascinating. I hadn't really considered that a sequel was a bold and risky venture on behalf of the community (which may be overstating things slightly) rather than a typical attempt to cash in on a sleeper hit.

 

[HEXYDEZiMAL]

Your analogy is down to perspective. I view it more as Value sold you six bottles of beer with the prospect of free beer later. Now they've decided not to give you as much free beer as they promised. Shock horror!
Value are a business and main objective is to make money. If customers (such as yourslef) aren't going to be loyal to valve, who have a good track record for serving their community, why should they bother supporting these communities?

It has nothing to do with perspective. Valve has dropped the ball on all and any aspects of Left 4 Dead. Everything they've said and everything they've done -- aside from minor bug patching -- has been steeped in absolute failure. They're the ones that hyped it up and made promises. The lack of DLC is only the icing on the cake. As detailed in the boycott, we know and recognize that they need money. That doesn't mean I'm putting up with their crap, and feeding them more money for even more crap to put up with.

I'm not Valve's sycophantic fanboy. I'm Valve's customer. They have failed to convince me to buy another.

It would be a fair statement to say that Left 4 Dead has laid waste much of Valve's previous track record for community support. I know it was indeed a bitter pill for me to swallow, and it has negatively affected how I think of Valve for good. No amount of yours -- or anybody else's -- pretending otherwise will make any of these facts go away.

As someone who likes left 4 dead but isnt really invested in it as a 'proper' fan I'd say that shows a very great deal of commitment. Immediately starting work on a sequel to a new IP before you've had plenty of time to assess its worth? I'd be hard pressed to find a better word other than 'commitment' to describe that.

They might not have been commited to the exact detail-for-detail description of how the franchise was going to expand or move forward, indeed they may have planned to expand L4D1 and then abandoned the idea in a complete turn around in favor of a new game - but in terms of overall commitment to L4D as an idea, as a series, as a genuine attempt to start a new IP I fail to see how they are doing an objectively bad job.

That isnt to say I cant see where the resentment comes from, not all the disgruntled people are morons - it just seems that the morons have the loudest voices. But overall I dont feel any ill will towards valve for going back on what they've said; developing a game and having a plan to turn it into an ongoing series cant be easy and if they need to make changes for whatever reason it may involve going back on things they have already announced - I understand the dilemma (fable is another example of promising and not delivering, and as a teen I was almost heartbroken when TR:AoD was released), but as someone who isnt emotionally invested heavily L4D1 I'm not too bothered about this particular incident.

I originally should've worded that as commitment to additional content, but okay, we'll run with what you said. First of all, if you were Valve and about to release a new franchise like L4D, it doesn't take Nostradamus to tell you that it was going to be successful.

However, when you're making bold-faced promises to throw in new weapons, etc. and already working on the next game, that can't be seen as anything other than being two-faced. Those are lies that they told when they knew they were lies, and to paying customers.

If you fail to see how they are doing an objectively bad job, then you haven't been paying attention. As I detailed above, they haven't done anything right. Left 4 Dead is still bug-ridden (including game breaking instances) and patches are both minor and slow in coming. It had only two versus campaigns for something like five months, and the Game of the Year edition only brought it up to what it should've been out of the box. It still doesn't have a SDK that's fully workable, so custom content has been dragging ass.

If that's not a bad job, you might as well hand your credit cards to Valve so they can keep cashing out their newest game on them.

Even though the boycott's directors have been fairly well-spoken in almost every aspect, the boycott still gets dismissed with negative criticism. The morons haven't been speaking for it, you've been misled to believe that the morons are speaking for it.

 

[Symp4thy]

It's funny because I never hear anything about the boycott anymore until people whine about the "whiners" and insult them, which is just going to flare up the whole argument again. If you are going to talk about them, is it really necessary to flame them? The Valve defenders are no better than the boycotters.

I am neither for nor against the boycott. It doesn't affect my ability to buy the game, so why should I care?

That is great news about the DLC though.

 

[HEXYDEZiMAL]

Seems to me the issue with the boycotters remains: that Valve is insufficiently supporting an incomplete product. Fixing bugs in a "sequel" doesn't really serve customers of the original if the games are separate and presumably incompatible.

Now, should Valve continue to release content for Left4Dead 1, or integrate it with Left4Dead 2, then I would consider the complaints officially addressed. Any further refusal to buy -- on reasons of "principle" at least -- is just holding a grudge.

Of course, I have my own (decidedly negative) views of DLC to begin with, but I've gone into those elsewhere.

Incidentally, has Lycaeus_Wrex seen this? I'm wildly curious what their opinion of this is.

Your first sentence is correct. That is absolutely the way it is.

Left 4 Dead is still full of bugs, and if you follow the link I posted and search for exploit, many are exploitable for player gain.

Valve has already said that the games will not be integrated, because that'd make it like an expansion pack. After all, they wouldn't want to be fair to those of us that bought their game the first time -- they'd rather we all shell out another $50, adding truth to your 'cashing in' statement there. They've mentioned that the first game's levels may be interchangeable in some way, but you can bet they'll probably abandon that idea.

It's not hard to see why none of us are expecting more content for Left 4 Dead when the second game is right around the corner and content -- let alone patching -- for Left 4 Dead has already been detestably pathetic in every way.

 

[Crux2]

First of all, if you were Valve and about to release a new franchise like L4D, it doesn't take Nostradamus to tell you that it was going to be successful.

Valve has an excellent reputation, I'd have thought that people would give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that if they make controvercial decisions they're probably trying to do the right thing rather than screw people out of money.

The fact that there is a large controversy surrounding L4D2 shows that many people dont trust them and are assuming the worst - add to this you previous comments about L4D needing fixes and tweaking and we come to the conculsion that no, Nostradamus could not have predicted success. Left for dead was not inevitably going to be a hit, and no other game in history was inevitably going to be a hit. They all take time and hard work and even the best of them arent free from criticism. Valve took a chance in starting a new IP. The odds were in their favor but they were by no means a certainty.

However, when you're making bold-faced promises to throw in new weapons, etc. and already working on the next game, that can't be seen as anything other than being two-faced. Those are lies that they told when they knew they were lies, and to paying customers.

Unless you are Valve and spoke those words yourself you can only speculate as to their truth. It is just as likely that those things were intended but got cut for one reason or another. Mabey they planned to include them but they were dropped in favor of a sequel. Mabey they planned to develop them side-by-side with a sequel and then dropped them for whatever reason. Mabey the guy who made the statement was speaking at a time when it was all still up for discussion and simply wasnt beeing discrete - no one knows unless you were actually, physically there.

Given their reputation I would say that those comments were at worse a mistake that they're embarrased about and don't want to address rather than an outright lie to reel in more customers. I wouldnt put outright lying past some developers but it just seems like the extreme end of the spectrum to accuse a company like valve of doing so in this particular case.

As I detailed above, they haven't done anything right.

I havent played L4D exhaustively. I am, by my own admission, not a proper fan. However I have played enough of it to feel I have my moneys worth, I recognise it as a good game and I have never encountered any bugs or glitches.

If it doesnt stand up to the rigorus re-playing and personal tastes of dedicated fans who wish to see change then thats one thing, but saying they "havent done anything" right" is outright laughable given its status as a well recieved, well played game.

If that's not a bad job, you might as well hand your credit cards to Valve so they can keep cashing out their newest game on them.

Even though the boycott's directors have been fairly well-spoken in almost every aspect, the boycott still gets dismissed with negative criticism. The morons haven't been speaking for it, you've been misled to believe that the morons are speaking for it.

Again, I still have to give valve the benefit of the doubt, they are a company, they do make money but a lot of the critisim is just like the above comment only without the preceding well-thought out argument: it's just mindless knee-jerk anti-corporate hate that assumes every sequel is a rip-off attempt to make money.

I'd go back to my origional point, the morons might not be running the show but they do make a lot of noise.

 

[Zac_Dai]

I never understood why people act all awesome and superior over the L4D2 boycotters.

As far as I'm away most of us live in the democratic west where the right to protest, voice our opinions and generally just ***** about stuff we don't like is the cornerstone of the freedom we have.

Theres absolutely nothing wrong with people having complaints about a product a company sold them.

But don't worry you all go back to acting all cool and shit.

 

[Crux2]

...voice our opinions and generally just ***** about stuff we don't like is the cornerstone of the freedom we have.

On the one hand I'd point out that this gives people the right to whine and ***** about other peoples opinions, politics, points of view etc etc.

On the other, I'd say that while people do needlessly complain on both sides there is a genuine issue at hand and some people really do want to discuss it.

Besides, a free and frank exchange of ideas is part of that whole 'western freedom' thing and some people just like a good ol' debate.

 

[Scarecrow38]

The boycott was never really a boycott, they had concerns but were going to buy it anyway. Anyone who has played L4D is going to buy the sequel, whatever they say. It was a fun game and is going to have a fun sequel.