So, it looks like the L4D2 boycott will die

[Cheesezorz]

L4D2 Boycott Group died already when it was made.

(I know, I'm not making any sense.)

 

[Dottie]

It's cause Valve spoils their fans.

 

[Zac_Dai]

...voice our opinions and generally just ***** about stuff we don't like is the cornerstone of the freedom we have.

On the one hand I'd point out that this gives people the right to whine and ***** about other peoples opinions, politics, points of view etc etc.

On the other, I'd say that while people do needlessly complain on both sides there is a genuine issue at hand and some people really do want to discuss it.

Besides, a free and frank exchange of ideas is part of that whole 'western freedom' thing and some people just like a good ol' debate.

I really don't mind people arguing against the Boycott as their are good arguments against.

Its the people who just think they are literally idiots whiners and all they do is throw around insults.

 

[Mike Fang]

While I do intend to buy L4D2, I'm not particularly happy about having to in order to play the latest developments in the franchise. I'm honestly rather surprised people are badmouthing people for standing up and taking offense at this rather than just acting like a major (and popular) game developer's brown noser. While I can't speak for everyone, I think most people irritated about L4D2 are frustrated for the same reason I am; the first game hasn't even been out a full year and already we've got to pay for a brand new game. An online multiplayer game should have a longer lifespan than that. I certainly wouldn't have a problem paying for an expansion pack (though I think it should be less than a full game). This brand new game seems like an excuse to get to charge players a full new game price.

 

[HEXYDEZiMAL]

Valve has an excellent reputation, I'd have thought that people would give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that if they make controvercial decisions they're probably trying to do the right thing rather than screw people out of money.

The fact that there is a large controversy surrounding L4D2 shows that many people dont trust them and are assuming the worst - add to this you previous comments about L4D needing fixes and tweaking and we come to the conculsion that no, Nostradamus could not have predicted success. Left for dead was not inevitably going to be a hit, and no other game in history was inevitably going to be a hit. They all take time and hard work and even the best of them arent free from criticism. Valve took a chance in starting a new IP. The odds were in their favor but they were by no means a certainty.

You do realize you're talking about a corporation, right? You posted that they're all about making money a few posts ago, and now I should trust a corporation to do the right thing and not do something that would make them money? That's a fairly hypocritical standpoint.

We're assuming the worst because we've been GETTING the worst, for nine months straight. Left 4 Dead was inevitably going to be a hit and the simple fact that a sequel was in process shows that Valve knew it. Do you honestly think that corporations just authorize brand new projects with untested IPs that they don't expect to become successful? They didn't take a chance -- as evidenced by your posts, they have plenty of people that are willing to believe they are some bastion of goodness and honesty.

Unless you are Valve and spoke those words yourself you can only speculate as to their truth. It is just as likely that those things were intended but got cut for one reason or another. Mabey they planned to include them but they were dropped in favor of a sequel. Mabey they planned to develop them side-by-side with a sequel and then dropped them for whatever reason. Mabey the guy who made the statement was speaking at a time when it was all still up for discussion and simply wasnt beeing discrete - no one knows unless you were actually, physically there.

Given their reputation I would say that those comments were at worse a mistake that they're embarrased about and don't want to address rather than an outright lie to reel in more customers. I wouldnt put outright lying past some developers but it just seems like the extreme end of the spectrum to accuse a company like valve of doing so in this particular case.

How can I only speculate? Gabe freakin Newell himself said so! Everything you propose is ridiculous. They simply made promises and didn't deliver. It's just common sense, and I don't need to work for Valve to tell you that. This wasn't just one guy at Valve saying these things, either.

You got lied to. No matter how you sugar coat it or try to explain it away. It's not me being extreme, it's me being a realist.

I havent played L4D exhaustively. I am, by my own admission, not a proper fan. However I have played enough of it to feel I have my moneys worth, I recognise it as a good game and I have never encountered any bugs or glitches.

If it doesnt stand up to the rigorus re-playing and personal tastes of dedicated fans who wish to see change then thats one thing, but saying they "havent done anything" right" is outright laughable given its status as a well recieved, well played game.

Either you'd have to have played just recently and only briefly, or you've outright been lucky if you haven't experienced some kind of bug. Left 4 Dead suffered from lobby bugs for months. It still has obvious collusion bugs. In the first level of No Mercy, for instance, we had a Survivor get into the side of the level and ruin the game just today. I still hit Exit on Left 4 Dead every now and then, and it hangs. Before you blame my computer, I don't have any other Source engine game that does that.

At release, only two campaigns were playable in versus. I don't know anybody who felt they got their money's worth at that point.

It was well-received for the same reason that the boycott group gets demonized. Biting the hand that feeds you when you are a reviewer for some magazine is not a very smart idea.

Again, I still have to give valve the benefit of the doubt, they are a company, they do make money but a lot of the critisim is just like the above comment only without the preceding well-thought out argument: it's just mindless knee-jerk anti-corporate hate that assumes every sequel is a rip-off attempt to make money.

I'd go back to my origional point, the morons might not be running the show but they do make a lot of noise.

Why do you continually give Valve the benefit of the doubt? I'm serious here. I've illusrated glaring problems with Left 4 Dead, and you continue to gloss it over and post as if Valve is some kind of saintly initiative that can do no wrong. This is not mindless knee-jerk, anti-corporate hate, it is well-reasoned, pissed off customers who are angry that they're already peddling a second game when their first is ANYTHING but finished.

 

[IrrelevantTangent]

I knew the boycott was doomed right from the start. Good thing I never ended up joining it. That said, I'm greatly looking forward to L4D2 this November, and I hope that both games get plenty of DLC, seeing as I don't plan on buying the first.

 

[Symp4thy]

...voice our opinions and generally just ***** about stuff we don't like is the cornerstone of the freedom we have.

On the one hand I'd point out that this gives people the right to whine and ***** about other peoples opinions, politics, points of view etc etc.

On the other, I'd say that while people do needlessly complain on both sides there is a genuine issue at hand and some people really do want to discuss it.

Besides, a free and frank exchange of ideas is part of that whole 'western freedom' thing and some people just like a good ol' debate.

I really don't mind people arguing against the Boycott as their are good arguments against.

Its the people who just think they are literally idiots whiners and all they do is throw around insults.

Thank you! I'm glad at least one other person sees it my way. There are so many people just throwing insults at the boycotters and not actually trying to have an intelligent discussion. They just want to flame. At least the boycotters have presented their list of complaints. Most of the time, the "boycott-haters" just respond with things like, "Whatever, you are all just whiny idiots."

 

[Ham Blitz]

Yay for the DLC! I just read about it yesterday. The only two things that disappoint me are that it is only 2 levels, and I have to pay 560 for it. In all honesty, I would pay 500 or 600 for it, because you can't do much with 40 Microsoft points. I just wish it was a full length campaign, because I enjoy campaign and find it entertaining and more relaxing than versus.
Just a curious side note:
Is the computer version a lot more bugged than the 360 version? I am just wondering because I keep reading HEXYDEZiMAL's comments about how the game has numerous bugs, and through my game play I have experienced very few.

 

[HEXYDEZiMAL]

I don't understand the logic some of you have here.

I got totally screwed (like anybody else who bought Left 4 Dead at release, when I had it) and you somehow think this is all just kidding and I'm going to buy and play more of the same?

Or that Valve spoiled me?

They've been screwing me since I bought the damned thing, because I didn't have and still haven't got what I paid for.

It took half a year before I felt like I had what I should have had when I first bought it. Hell, they were screwing me before I purchased it, if you count the hyping they did, and the fact that they lotted in gas cans, propane tanks, and such with the number of weapons they said the game had. They're not spoiling me, I just don't take any shit and don't like being lied to.

It's not hard to understand the concept of the boycott, because I've already explained it in detail. UncleOvid reiterated perfectly when he said, "Valve is insufficiently supporting an incomplete product."

It also isn't doomed, despite what the Oracle can keep wishing. He's only happy to say so because he didn't buy the first game at all.

Sorry to tell you, but this boycott isn't dead, it's up to 41,396 members. If even half of the current boycotters don't buy L4D2, that's $1,034,900. And that's at the Steam price of $10 less. Dismiss that.

 

[Hikikomori Ookami]

Anybody else miss the days when you bought a game and knew that that was it, nothing would change on until the sequel came out (except for PC games)?

 

[HEXYDEZiMAL]

Just a curious side note:
Is the computer version a lot more bugged than the 360 version? I am just wondering because I keep reading HEXYDEZiMAL's comments about how the game has numerous bugs, and through my game play I have experienced very few.

You stated you enjoy the campaign mode, so you're much less likely to encounter people who are out to exploit with either version.

That's where a lot of the bugs come into play. In a competitive environment like Versus, there's always going to be people who will do whatever it takes to either grief or win the game.

The 360 version did have people abusing the bugs when it first dropped, but I've heard Valve patched most of the major things. From what I've witnessed it honestly seems like the 360's lobby/matchmaking works better (could be XBOX Live, in that case?).

However, I do feel bad for the 360 people, because they have to pay for the Survival Pack.

 

[IrrelevantTangent]

It also isn't doomed, despite what the Oracle can keep wishing. He's only happy to say so because he didn't buy the first game at all.

Sorry to tell you, but this boycott isn't dead, it's up to 41,396 members. If even half of the current boycotters don't buy L4D2, that's $1,034,900. And that's at the Steam price of $10 less. Dismiss that.

*rolls eyes* Tell that to the Valve officials that keep banning people left and right from Steam and other places simply because they were part of the boycott.

Good luck sustaining that boycott when Left 4 Dead 2 comes out and plenty of people still end up buying it. Because you and I both know that's what's going to happen.

EDIT- And last time I checked, the Survival Pack was free on Xbox Live marketplace.

 

[Symp4thy]

Tell that to the Valve officials that keep banning people left and right from Steam and other places simply because they were part of the boycott.

Please note, not saying you are wrong, just asking for a source. I haven't heard about that and would like more info on these bannings.

 

[Crux2]

Valve is a corporation. Corporation doesnt mean "soulless gathering of evil money-grabbers who try to screw people out of their fair share"

It doesnt matter if it's a political group, a military organisation, a religion or a business company - they are all just groups of people and arent inherintly good or bad. You seem to be set on this idea that valve has been deliberately lying, openly releasing a bad product and ultimately trying to con people out of money.

All I can say is that I disagree. You say it was inevitably going to be a hit? I fundamentally dispute that. No-one can predict the future with that kind of accuracy. If Left 4 dead is as broken as you make it out to be then there is and always has been the chance that word would spread about how awful it is - that fact that it hasnt been widely panned doesnt retrospectivly justify the idea that it was always going to be a winner.

We are going to have X in the game. Game comes out X isnt there. You can call whoever said that a liar but it doesnt make it so. They may have belived it at the time but then had to remove X for one reason or another. All I'm saying here is that you can't be 100% sure that it was a genuine attempt at malicious hype-generating deception rather than an embarrasing mistake.

I've played L4D soon after its release and go back to it for a few games every now and then, if the PC version has issues then welcome to the world of modern gaming. I sympathyse, I really do. I've only recently been able to play PC games again after getting a new laptop but bugs and compatability issues are, regrettably, part and parcel of the modern industry - as games get rapidly more and more complex the days of basement development teams are all but over. Bugs can be game breaking and annoying but they're much, much more likely due to the nature of technology getting complex, it's not just developers getting lazy - although that can happen. The line between unacceptable and irritating is very grey and very vague, at the end of the day it's only opinion that makes the difference and they will be very varied due to the seemingly random way some people get bugs and some dont.

I give valve the benefit of the doubt, NOT constantly, becasue their past track record is decent and this seems to be their first big mistake. I'm not going to defend valve to the hilt because I'm not a dedicated fan, I recognise that their work is good and I'll put my two cents in when it comes to a debate but I'm not trying to extinguish all critisism against them. Critisism is useful and helps raise awareness of issues that need to be adressed.

To put it blutly; I recognise they make mistakes, I recognise that some people arent satisfied with the product they've been given and I recognise that I'm not as invested in L4D as others.

But, as someone who has observed the issue for a while before commenting I am firmly of the opinion that a LOT of people, I'm NOT saying you specifically, ARE blowing some issues all out of proportion, particularly when it comes to the accusation of profiteering.

Valve is the company that took 6 years to make a proper sequel to half-life rather than churn out a sequel every year like Eidos used to with Tomb Raider(and I say that as a Tomb Raider fan.)

Were currently waiting on episode III, it was supposed to be part of a series that was shorter, cheaper and released more often - another 'promise' they are going back on. Again, I don't care too much at this point. If it comes out and its just as short as the other two chapters I'll be a little (quite/very/extremely depending on the level of love for the HL series) pissed off, but I understand that they were working on other things. If it comes out and its significantly longer and more expensive I doubt I'll hold a grudge just because they made a decision to change their game-plan having already announced it. Doesnt bother me, so long as I get a game I like.

The orange box. It's fair to say this is one of the best value-for-money gaming items in recent years - if valve were a bunch of black-hearted fat-cats they would have never made the orange box, all three new releases would have been seperate purchases.

Valve has a track record of making good games. This is the first time major accusations of foul-play have been aimed at them and they have been hotly debated by both sides - as an outsider I am inclined to give valve the benefit of the doubt this time because it is the first time.

If this is the start of a trend then I will naturally revise my opinions but I'm not going to jump ship at the first signs of trouble - this is an ongoing issue afterall.

 

[Ham Blitz]

Just a curious side note:
Is the computer version a lot more bugged than the 360 version? I am just wondering because I keep reading HEXYDEZiMAL's comments about how the game has numerous bugs, and through my game play I have experienced very few.

You stated you enjoy the campaign mode, so you're much less likely to encounter people who are out to exploit with either version.

That's where a lot of the bugs come into play. In a competitive environment like Versus, there's always going to be people who will do whatever it takes to either grief or win the game.

The 360 version did have people abusing the bugs when it first dropped, but I've heard Valve patched most of the major things. From what I've witnessed it honestly seems like the 360's lobby/matchmaking works better (could be XBOX Live, in that case?).

However, I do feel bad for the 360 people, because they have to pay for the Survival Pack.

Ah, that could explain a lot. I usually only play versus with friends who haven't been on in a bit, so I guess I probably don't see most of the exploits.
Side note, we didn't have to pay for the survival pack, only this new map.

Also, sorry for the delay for the reply(Not that I said anything important). I went to eat and watch a show.

 

[HEXYDEZiMAL]

It also isn't doomed, despite what the Oracle can keep wishing. He's only happy to say so because he didn't buy the first game at all.

Sorry to tell you, but this boycott isn't dead, it's up to 41,396 members. If even half of the current boycotters don't buy L4D2, that's $1,034,900. And that's at the Steam price of $10 less. Dismiss that.

*rolls eyes* Tell that to the Valve officials that keep banning people left and right from Steam and other places simply because they were part of the boycott.

Good luck sustaining that boycott when Left 4 Dead 2 comes out and plenty of people still end up buying it. Because you and I both know that's what's going to happen.

EDIT- And last time I checked, the Survival Pack was free on Xbox Live marketplace.

They're banning people because they were anti-boycotters like yourselves, spamming and such in the boycott group. They weren't content just to disagree, they had to take it several steps farther. We just had three pages of spam, apparently. To my knowledge, nobody has been banned to date for simply being involved in the boycott. I'm sorry to disappoint you.

I think you gravely underestimate the number of people who were pissed off with how Left 4 Dead has turned out so far, especially the as of yet unfinished SDK. You're right though, I guess we'll see. I'll tell you one person who isn't buying right here, though.

I hadn't heard that, by the way.

Just checked, though, and he's right, I'm glad I'm wrong in that case.

 

[scotth266]

I don't understand the logic some of you have here.

I got totally screwed (like anybody else who bought Left 4 Dead at release, when I had it) and you somehow think this is all just kidding and I'm going to buy and play more of the same?

Alrighty. This, I have to object to.

You only got "screwed" in the sense that not all of what was promised is being delivered. But to be honest, does L4D really NEED all the new content? The four campaigns, as is, are long, arduous, and FUN: even you can admit that, right?

My current playtime on L4D currently stands at 13 hours and counting: and it's only that low because I have a lot of other games that I like playing. If I didn't, I would probably have something closer to 25 hours. I'd call that getting my money's worth out of the game, REGARDLESS of what promises that the developer made with regards to extra content. Am I a little disappointed that Valve didn't release bucketloads of DLC for it? Yeah, a little. But they DID release stuff: Survival Mode mainly, which IS a good addition. People have complained about it for all sorts of reasons, but I've found that the main one was "IT ISN'T A NEW CAMPAIGN!"

Well, jeez. Considering that the four campaigns were all that the game consisted of originally, it probably takes a LONG time for Valve to properly construct them, eh?

I can't help but feel that the only reason this new campaign is so short is that Valve is trying to rush it to appease the boycotters: to give them what they wanted so they can make the sequel and do what they wanted to do with the game in the first place. So complaining about the shortness of the new campaign is pointless, because you guys aren't willing to give them the time to make new ones.